Re How the Irish Govnerment are killing people for our debt

Smidge · 13-12-2012 02:33AM

Also wanted to add.....

Is it common practice for the SW to cut off someone from carers (ie no payment) with no notice????

This is what happened in the cases that I heard of this week.

No letter, nothing.

Very bad form imo

franktheplank · 13-12-2012 02:33AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Hold on, Neil deGrasse Tyson wishes to warn us all that "we got a badass over here".

Once he's done, you may resume your hollow posturing.

Is it the best you can do to defend you're right to be an asshole on an anonymous forum?

Maybe you should start another thread, it's not really the topic here?

hooradiation · 13-12-2012 02:39AM

Its Behind You! wrote: »

@hooradation.

Golden Light lost her mum just 2 weeks ago and you think it's ok to get stuck into her thread with intentional confrontational posts.

I hope that you are 'on' something at the moment, cause that frame of mind is not one you would want to have permanently.

Grief doesn't buy you an exemption from saying things that are plainly ridiculous.

I'm sure they feel awful, but that doesn't carry with it an obligation to indulge their opinions regardless.

Addendum:
If I started blaming "big pharma" or something equally nonsensical for my mothers death, I'd expect people to show some goddamn backbone and call me on my nonsense, same here.

franktheplank · 13-12-2012 02:47AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Addendum:
If I started blaming "big pharma" or something equally nonsensical for my mothers death, I'd expect people to show some goddamn backbone and call me on my nonsense, same here.

You're just further demonstrating your arrogance with this kind of half assed backtracking. I've made my views clear on your 'contribution' and I won't be involved any further with you.

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 02:48AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Grief doesn't buy you an exemption from saying things that are plainly ridiculous.

I'm sure they feel awful, but that doesn't carry with it an obligation to indulge their opinions regardless.

Addendum:
If I started blaming "big pharma" or something equally nonsensical for my mothers death, I'd expect people to show some goddamn backbone and call me on my nonsense, same here.

You clearly get some sort of buzz from stirring it up.

DylanII · 13-12-2012 02:49AM

I didn't think that anyone would actually support the cuts to careers.

I only know one person who is a career. She left her dream job, a very high paying one, to look after her mother who needs 24/7 care.

She could have just let the state take care of her, costing them a lot of money, but she didn't she sacrificed everything, and how is she thanked for this? By taking more money from her?

I know that there need to be cuts, I know that we need to pay more taxes. I would have no issue with further increase in taxes (vat/income taxes) or further cuts in services and increases in education fees (all of those would directly effect me) in order for these people not to be cut. I actually feel all of these people should be getting an increase in payments.

But the thing is, who can we vote for that won't allow this kind of thing to happen?

hooradiation · 13-12-2012 02:53AM

franktheplank wrote: »

You're just further demonstrating your arrogance with this kind of half assed backtracking. I've made my views clear on your 'contribution' and I won't be involved any further with you.

Well if you aren't able to stand over your comments, then what can I do?

A shame, really.

Fromthetrees · 13-12-2012 02:57AM

franktheplank wrote: »

Let me guess, public service and own at least one house?

There's no reason not to tackle the CPA. I'm no expert but from what i know there is room that it can be revisited if required. I think that should come before cutting carers allowance.

There's plenty of housing in the country that's empty and isn't unfinished. It doesn't all have to be filled, just enough that the market forces act freely. My mate lived in the old east germany recently, since the wall came down they did the same thing we did and built too many houses, because there was an over supply the cost of rent dropped to all but maintenance costs.

We're keeping a false floor in the market just the please the property investors.

Also, I don't see why we can't renege on the banking debt. There's very view people here (in Ireland) who would defend the FF governments mandate to take on private debt as they did.

I don't work in the public sector and I don't own my own house, you'll just have to take my word for it.

The CPA is due to run until this time next year I think so negotiations should begin on it's replacement now, they could have a new one in place by the next budget.
I think any public sector worker on a 6 figure salary should really need to prove they are worth their salary or they should be cut. I think all or most of the semi state bodies should be sold off. I think teachers should work during the summer months doing something productive. I think the fact you have a guaranteed job and pension in the public sector with a powerful union behind you, paid sick days ect. ect. should mean you get paid 10% less than an equivalent job in the private sector.

I know rent allowance is a bit of a disaster but these ghost estates are a non runner really. Who's going to pay to bring them up to a livable standard, where's the money to do it? If there's a ghost estate with 50 houses located an hour from Galway City do you just move 50 families on the dole in with no cars, no bus service, no library ect ect.

We can't renege on our debt when we're borrowing billions every year, you know, they'll kinda stop giving us money if we show we won't pay it back.
Now, if we closed the deficit in our budget to a surplus, have solid growth prospects and all that, then I would absolutely love to renege on our debt, and we may well get away with it then but we simply can't right now.

Cutting the carers allowance is probably as horrible of a cut that can be made but we are borrowing billions just to keep the show running today, cuts today seem unfair but in my opinion it is far more unfair to lump today's debt spending onto our children. My daughter will have to pay for today's spending. What I'm saying is we have to cut everything, we have to balance the books.

Smidge · 13-12-2012 03:06AM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I don't work in the public sector and I don't own my own house, you'll just have to take my word for it.

The CPA is due to run until this time next year I think so negotiations should begin on it's replacement now, they could have a new one in place by the next budget.
I think any public sector worker on a 6 figure salary should really need to prove they are worth their salary or they should be cut. I think all or most of the semi state bodies should be sold off. I think teachers should work during the summer months doing something productive. I think the fact you have a guaranteed job and pension in the public sector with a powerful union behind you, paid sick days ect. ect. should mean you get paid 10% less than an equivalent job in the private sector.

I know rent allowance is a bit of a disaster but these ghost estates are a non runner really. Who's going to pay to bring them up to a livable standard, where's the money to do it? If there's a ghost estate with 50 houses located an hour from Galway City do you just move 50 families on the dole in with no cars, no bus service, no library ect ect.

We can't renege on our debt when we're borrowing billions every year, you know, they'll kinda stop giving us money if we show we won't pay it back.
Now, if we closed the deficit in our budget to a surplus, have solid growth prospects and all that, then I would absolutely love to renege on our debt, and we may well get away with it then but we simply can't right now.

Cutting the carers allowance is probably as horrible of a cut that can be made but we are borrowing billions just to keep the show running today, cuts today seem unfair but in my opinion it is far more unfair to lump today's debt spending onto our children. My daughter will have to pay for today's spending. What I'm saying is we have to cut everything, we have to balance the books.

With all due respect FTT,
Is you daughter in good health, I would presume so as you see a career in her future and that is a blessing.

There is an expression "Where you're rearing, be sparing"
What about the parent who now, today has special needs children(notice the plural).
How do they cope day to day?
With the carers allowance if they have been lucky enough to get it because maybe, just maybe someone in the carers dept has decided that your Downs child in not disabled enough and that your other child with learning and emotional difficulties is the same???
People with special needs family members haven't got the luxury of hoping past today.

They cant worry about saving a country from debt, all they can worry about is how the hell will they get through today.

hatrickpatrick · 13-12-2012 03:11AM

Our government doesn't give a sh!t about ordinary people.
There will be a bunch of jerks posting after me saying "But we're spending too much, we have to balance the books, etc etc etc" - well FINE, but is there ANY logical reason not to do so fairly? Is there ANY logical reason to make everyone responsible for private banking debt? Is there ANY logical reason that TDs and advisors should be getting six figure salaries? Is there ANY logical reason that former politicians who are variously up to their necks in corruption should be paid "expenses" despite the fact that they are no longer employed by the state? Is there ANY logical reason that Enda & co should have the power to personally intervene and breach a pay cap for one of their former colleagues?

I could go on and on and on. Where's the f*cking justice??? When will we see the people who ran Anglo into the ground up in front of a judge to answer fraud charges? When will we see former ministers up on charges of colluding with them to help them run away with the cash while screwing the rest of us? When will we follow Iceland's example and have the Cowen & co tried for incompetence?

You can cut carer's allowance if it's necessary, but ONLY AFTER you've milked the political elite for all you can get. Otherwise this country is being run for the benefit of a financial sector clique with no regard for anyone else, and I for one will simply not tolerate living in that kind of society anymore. Enough is enough.

Smidge · 13-12-2012 03:29AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Our government doesn't give a sh!t about ordinary people.
There will be a bunch of jerks posting after me saying "But we're spending too much, we have to balance the books, etc etc etc" - well FINE, but is there ANY logical reason not to do so fairly? Is there ANY logical reason to make everyone responsible for private banking debt? Is there ANY logical reason that TDs and advisors should be getting six figure salaries? Is there ANY logical reason that former politicians who are variously up to their necks in corruption should be paid "expenses" despite the fact that they are no longer employed by the state? Is there ANY logical reason that Enda & co should have the power to personally intervene and breach a pay cap for one of their former colleagues?

I could go on and on and on. Where's the f*cking justice??? When will we see the people who ran Anglo into the ground up in front of a judge to answer fraud charges? When will we see former ministers up on charges of colluding with them to help them run away with the cash while screwing the rest of us? When will we follow Iceland's example and have the Cowen & co tried for incompetence?

You can cut carer's allowance if it's necessary, but ONLY AFTER you've milked the political elite for all you can get. Otherwise this country is being run for the benefit of a financial sector clique with no regard for anyone else, and I for one will simply not tolerate living in that kind of society anymore. Enough is enough.

I think its the sheer deviance of cutting the carers that bothers me.

I know a few carers(2 of which got cut off with no notice this week)but the thing about it is the Government KNOW these carers haven't got a leg to stand on to challenge these cuts.

What are they going to do???

Dump their alzheimers/stroke victim mother at the A&E door and say "I really don't feel like taking out your incontinence bag any more" and leggit?

Ditch their teenage child with learning and emotional issues at the local health centre and say "You know what? You are 14 and I don't want to have to wash you face and brush you teeth or deal with your fears and nightmares and day to day heartache that would be appropriate for a 6 year old any more"

The Government know this will not happen so they say "lets bugger these poor people whose lives we would never want to live because they can do f*ck all about it".

Fromthetrees · 13-12-2012 03:32AM

Smidge wrote: »

With all due respect FTT,
Is you daughter in good health, I would presume so as you see a career in her future and that is a blessing.

There is an expression "Where you're rearing, be sparing"
What about the parent who now, today has special needs children(notice the plural).
How do they cope day to day?
With the carers allowance if they have been lucky enough to get it because maybe, just maybe someone in the carers dept has decided that your Downs child in not disabled enough and that your other child with learning and emotional difficulties is the same???
People with special needs family members haven't got the luxury of hoping past today.

They cant worry about saving a country from debt, all they can worry about is how the hell will they get through today.

I agree and I don't think I'd be able to cope if I had to deal with a mentally handicapped child. I should have posted my points in a different thread really. I did do voluntary work in a school before, (3 hours a week for 6 months)

It just annoys me why we can't just eliminate the deficit as quickly as possible and we can all move on from there. 6 austerity budgets and we're still borrowing billions is insanity. If we don't get a grip of spending and if we did default on our sovereign debt we'll be really screwed, there might be no money at all for anyone and the country might fall apart, we need pain now to avoid a complete collapse.

There's 'library assistants' in colleges in this country getting 6 figure salaries on borrowed money, we are putting our children up as collateral to obtain this money, I'm sorry, but this fact annoys me more than any cut will.

hatrickpatrick · 13-12-2012 03:36AM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

There's 'library assistants' in colleges in this country getting 6 figure salaries on borrowed money, we are putting our children up as collateral to obtain this money, I'm sorry, but this fact annoys me more than any cut will.

This. It's the injustice of it that really p!sses me off, but apparently too many people have this simplistic "we have to balance the books end of story" attitude, without realizing that it's HOW we're balancing them that's angering people. Again, why the aversion to justice? Would anyone honestly be upset if all politicians who no longer worked for the state lost all their cash entitlements except for their pensions? WHAT is the logic of paying "expenses" to someone who no longer works for you? Expenses are supposed to be work related costs, if he's not working for us anymore then he HAS no expenses.

That's just one example, but I have hundreds more. Why should we all be suffering when they're not? They're the ones who made this mess in the first place FFS!

shedweller · 13-12-2012 03:40AM

fkt wrote: »

''for our debt''...

It sounds as though you don't respect the importance of paying down our debt. It will be alot worse than one death here and there if we don't.

Our debt?

Smidge · 13-12-2012 03:42AM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

I agree and I don't think I'd be able to cope if I had to deal with a mentally handicapped child. I should have posted my points in a different thread really. I did do voluntary work in a school before, (3 hours a week for 6 months)

It just annoys me why we can't just eliminate the deficit as quickly as possible and we can all move on from there. 6 austerity budgets and we're still borrowing billions is insanity. If we don't get a grip of spending and if we did default on our sovereign debt we'll be really screwed, there might be no money at all for anyone and the country might fall apart, we need pain now to avoid a complete collapse.

There's 'library assistants' in colleges in this country getting 6 figure salaries on borrowed money, we are putting our children up as collateral to obtain this money, I'm sorry, but this fact annoys me more than any cut will.

I totally get you point about bloated wages in this state, utterly ridiculous imo.

But hitting people who have no lives so to speak(and I have seen this first hand)because they give every waking moment looking after the most vunerable in our society is just downright appalling.

I have to say at this stage I am really despairing of what we have become as a nation.

Try to live in a world where there is no "out" because you are bound by duty and love to look after this person who is less fortunate than we are.

K-9 · 13-12-2012 03:58AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Nobody is "killing people for our debt" it's nothing but hyperbole and that's all it is.
A little goddamn perspective wouldn't go amiss.

Indeed, you are getting all worked up over a thread title on an internet forum from somebody who lost their mother 2 weeks ago. Cop on and don't post on this thread again.

Cavehill Red · 13-12-2012 04:18AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Hey apparently murdering people lessens our debt... somehow.

Let's go killcrazy!

I'll make a prediction. This recession and its concomitant pain and suffering inflicted on working people across the globe will end approximately ten minutes after the first person goes postal at the Bilderberg conference, Davos or in Goldman Sachs' boardroom.

GoldenLight · 13-12-2012 06:17AM

Sorry, I fell a sleep.

And I can't reply to everyone here, but huge THANK YOU, to most posts.

My Mum, while I cared for her, gave me the best 5 years of my life, and if I had the chance to do it again, I would do it again in a heart beat. She gave me more than anyone could in that time. I was honoured to give what I could back to her. And thankfully she died peacefully and at home among love

We, within general where relatively safe with the cuts (until the last budget) which doesn't affect me any more (thankfully). No my mother didn't die from, what our government cuts, what sickens me though is that our government actually thinks it's ok to keep cutting/slashing away at the most vunerable in society. When they refused my application of Carer's Allowance. (back in July) her doctor out of frustration, even said "What do they want, her to be dead". I find it ironic that she now is, and I'm still waiting on our government to look at my appeal to carers' allowance 6 months later.

And yet our government still thinks it's ok to cut carer's. I again I'm sorry I'm emotive about this each time in each budget, they our decided to pick on the people who couldn't fight back. Each budget managed to take something away from the carer's.

By the way in the period I was Carering for my Mum (she was a dreamer, like I am) We managed to create 3 full time self supporting jobs.

You see even in her illiness, she kept giving to a country she loved. I think I'm a little more cynical than her.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to post here

GoldenLight · 13-12-2012 06:59AM

hooradiation wrote: »

Or you'll do what, exactly?

Nothing... thought so.

Nobody is "killing people for our debt" it's nothing but hyperbole and that's all it is.
A little goddamn perspective wouldn't go amiss.

Really I see people dieing all around me, the guy who died of the cold in Bray, the guy who was pushed under the bus, the suicides on the DART line, that is only in the last month.

I think "Our Debt" has a lot more to do with death that you might actually think.

I also agree it is a projection, of what I'm seeing, but so is most peoples realities (reality is subjective, so is sticking your head in the sand) I'm just stating my version of a reality.

But I'm happy if you want to re invent the sandwich.

Sunnyisland · 13-12-2012 07:13AM

Sorry for the loss of your mother OP.

Death and Taxes · 13-12-2012 08:12AM

Fromthetrees wrote: »

That's a very sad story.:(

The government does help out though doesn't it, we have a deficit that needs to be closed, there are probably better ways to do it then cut this allowance but cuts have to be made. If they cut children's allowance by say 40 instead of 10 to cover somewhere else than more children might go to bed hungry.

What are the incompetent leaders of this country supposed to do?

How about the don't borrow €500 million to give in forigen aid, and instead spend it at home, on carers, on repairing schools, re-opening closed wards in hospitals, etc etc

Jimoslimos · 13-12-2012 08:44AM

First of all OP, sorry for your loss. The thread title is understandable given what you've went through.

However I don't think hooradiation was incorrect when he called it hyperbole. The government aren't killing people to pay for debt, perhaps not caring for the vulnerable as they should but killing, no.

I'm aware the next part will seem callous and cold but spending money on the sick, elderly and disabled doesn't do anything to reduce our debt (at least not immediately) - and not reducing our debt means we'll be even less likely to provide those services in the future.

I'd also counterargue my own point however by pointing out that family carers are less likely to be making a financial contribution to the economy, so the vicious circle continues.

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 09:12AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

First of all OP, sorry for your loss. The thread title is understandable given what you've went through.

However I don't think hooradiation was incorrect when he called it hyperbole. The government aren't killing people to pay for debt, perhaps not caring for the vulnerable as they should but killing, no.

I'm aware the next part will seem callous and cold but spending money on the sick, elderly and disabled doesn't do anything to reduce our debt (at least not immediately) - and not reducing our debt means we'll be even less likely to provide those services in the future.

I'd also counterargue my own point however by pointing out that family carers are less likely to be making a financial contribution to the economy, so the vicious circle continues.

I work in health care and it is quite clear that the government considers that the sick, the elderly and infirm are cheaper dead.

Your post would suggest that those vulnerable in society should be sacrificed as some sort of libation to the goal of financial recovery is sickening.

I hope that you never have to experience at first hand what Golden Light has experienced, however I predict that you will form some sort of defence with regard to that.

JupiterKid · 13-12-2012 09:14AM

They say a society can be judged by how well they look after their weakest and most vulnerable members.

There are far more factors that need to be taken into consideration when running a country than hard nosed fiscal issues and stripped down economic "priorities." Like helping those in need and ensuring a basic quality of life for all.

The cuts in the carer's allowance is an attack on the vulnerable to ensure that those with the most to lose stay comfortable.

Sincere condolences for your loss OP.

Ghandee · 13-12-2012 09:21AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I'm aware the next part will seem callous and cold but spending money on the sick, elderly and disabled doesn't do anything to reduce our debt (at least not immediately) - and not reducing our debt means we'll be even less likely to provide those services in the future.

Jeez Louise.

Respite allowance cut = €25 million.

Top level civil servant pension fund deficit = €25 million. (which has been filled incidentally)

Its just a hunch I have, but its a strong hunch.

Some of these 'top civil servant pensioners, may one day be old, sick and disabled'

We can't be cutting their entitlements lads, oh no, that'd never do.

Jimoslimos · 13-12-2012 09:38AM

Its Behind You! wrote: »

Your post would suggest that those vulnerable in society should be sacrificed as some sort of libation to the goal of financial recovery is sickening.

I never made any sort of suggestion of the sort, so cut the faux outrage. I merely outlined the reason why governments don't shift 100% of spending to caring for the sick, elderly and disabled.

I don't agree with the cuts the government made, I think it's an extremely short term solution to a long term problem. However that said I also believe cutting and shifting funds from other departments to healthcare is also a short term solution.

As an aside I'm living in the UK at the moment, despite the fact I've never had to use the services of the much maligned NHS I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is a model our politicians should have been looking to emulate instead of concentrating on "opening the market for competition" during the boom years.

Its Behind You! wrote: »

I hope that you never have to experience at first hand what Golden Light has experienced, however I predict that you will form some sort of defence with regard to that.

Low.

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 09:43AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I never made any sort of suggestion of the sort, so cut the faux outrage. I merely outlined the reason why governments don't shift 100% of spending to caring for the sick, elderly and disabled.

I would suggest that you read your own post.

I don't agree with the cuts the government made, I think it's an extremely short term solution to a long term problem. However that said I also believe cutting and shifting funds from other departments to healthcare is also a short term solution.

As an aside I'm living in the UK at the moment, despite the fact I've never had to use the services of the much maligned NHS I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is a model our politicians should have been looking to emulate instead of concentrating on "opening the market for competition" during the boom years.

Low.

What in particular aspect do you find low?

Jimoslimos · 13-12-2012 09:49AM

Its Behind You! wrote: »

What in particular aspect do you find low?

It was a shameless attempt to use emotion and the loss suffered by another poster to make your point. If I don't comment on my private life it sure as hell doesn't give you a right to speculate on it.

Its Behind You! · 13-12-2012 09:55AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

It was a shameless attempt to use emotion and the loss suffered by another poster to make your point. If I don't comment on my private life it sure as hell doesn't give you a right to speculate on it.

Ridiculous.

GoldenLight · 13-12-2012 10:18AM

Jimoslimos wrote: »

I never made any sort of suggestion of the sort, so cut the faux outrage. I merely outlined the reason why governments don't shift 100% of spending to caring for the sick, elderly and disabled.

I don't agree with the cuts the government made, I think it's an extremely short term solution to a long term problem. However that said I also believe cutting and shifting funds from other departments to healthcare is also a short term solution.

As an aside I'm living in the UK at the moment, despite the fact I've never had to use the services of the much maligned NHS I wouldn't trade it for anything. It is a model our politicians should have been looking to emulate instead of concentrating on "opening the market for competition" during the boom years.

Low.

I understand where you are coming from completely, I understand how the managing of books is important, (oddly my mother's Great Grand Father, is quote in the Irish Times as having developed the 3 book system, that is thought in schools to day, back in early 1900's)

But I'm also sorry, it isn't just about Money, and balancing of books, Our Government have managed to hit the carer's in every budget, eg everytime someone on social welfare was hit, carer's, where hit too, this budget is now hitting them again.

To me it comes across as School yard Bully attuide, infact I know an 8 year old Great grand Son has more respect for her, than our Government had. Also again we are lucky, we have that

My point of this thread is that, if you keep looking at the books and making them add up,isn't good enough peoples lives are at stack here.

PS I want to people to know, the Health care my Mom got was brilliant, the support care she got was fantastic, me and my sisters are actively looking for you guys, too thank you and help you in anyway we can in supporting you, in the job you are doing. THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING MY MOM. you never stop carering XXX (she was slightly aware of it too

Re How the Irish Govnerment are killing people for our debt

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