Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 11:16PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Thats what I'm saying, face to face with a Garda.

If the Garda utilises his discretion on the spot, so be it, good for you, good for the Gaurds, building repect and rapport with the public, public relations with the Gaurds etc and all that, I actually have no issue with that.

I do have an issue with records being changed covertly and this is where discretionary powers could be abused wholesale for financial gain, professional favours etc.

There exists an open and transparent public appeals system, anyone can appeal their points in court.

But what I am saying is that appealing to the Garda face to face and appealing the ticket of an automated camera to the Superintendent are exactly the same thing.

Going Forward · 09-12-2012 01:21AM

MagicSean wrote: »

But what I am saying is that appealing to the Garda face to face and appealing the ticket of an automated camera to the Superintendent are exactly the same thing.

I just feel uncomfortable with the notion of seeking favours or discretion "after the fact" when pretty incontrovertible evidence of my obvious misdemeanour has been automatically or electronically produced.

The difference for me is that that evidence has not already been automatically electronically produced at the roadside when encountering a Garda at a checkpoint.

The Gaurd, face to face with you, has an opportunity to assess you on the spot and well may form an opinion of you based on your car's condition, your age, license, experience, demeanor, previous etc. As I said, if that all goes well for you (or me) so be it. But if not, thats the luck of the draw in my book.

There is now a great possibility that EACH and EVERY penalty point recipient will write to the Superintendent claiming they were bringing their sick dog to the vet, etc. with a legitimate expectation that their points will be wiped as those of others, Judges, celebrities, sportspeople etc. have been?

Going Forward · 09-12-2012 01:45AM

rebeve wrote: »

Donegal

New Ross

Waterford

Cavan

Its a small country.

MagicSean · 09-12-2012 02:02AM

Going Forward wrote: »

I just feel uncomfortable with the notion of seeking favours or discretion "after the fact" when pretty incontrovertible evidence of my obvious misdemeanour has been automatically or electronically produced.

The difference for me is that that evidence has not already been automatically electronically produced at the roadside when encountering a Garda at a checkpoint.

The Gaurd, face to face with you, has an opportunity to assess you on the spot and well may form an opinion of you based on your car's condition, your age, license, experience, demeanor, previous etc. As I said, if that all goes well for you (or me) so be it. But if not, thats the luck of the draw in my book.

There is now a great possibility that EACH and EVERY penalty point recipient will write to the Superintendent claiming they were bringing their sick dog to the vet, etc. with a legitimate expectation that their points will be wiped as those of others, Judges, celebrities, sportspeople etc. have been?

What makes you think he'll believe them?

MickF · 09-12-2012 02:09AM

Having read all the posts I felt I should clarify some matters. As someone with an "inside" knowledge of the whole fixed charge system I feel that some of the issues being raised are a little OTT. The system is relatively simple. If a person is detected speeding and receives a fixed penalty notice they are entitled to write to the local Suprtintendant where the fine was issued. If they feel they have a genuine reason for speeding they can "appeal" the fixed charge fine. The Supt. then sends it to the issueing Garda for his/her recommendations. Each case is dealt with on its own merits. I dealt with hundreds of such cases and in the vast majority of cases I would have recommended cancellation based on the cases put forward by the alleged offenders. I never once recommended cancellation where I didn't believe the case being put forward. Human nature being what it is people usually don't lie about sick relatives or family emergencies. Going to a football match or being late for an appointment was never considered an excuse. My answer was they should have allowed more time for their journey. Most of these alleged cancelled fixed charge notices would be justified in their own right. I am sure there may have been cases where outside influences may have been utilised but overall these cases would not amount to many. Every time a fixed charge notice was cancelled it would have had to a corresponding appeal letter and file number attached. It's very easy to speculate and surmise but the system has its own built in accountability. Another piece of clarification, the Gardai have absolutely no input in to penalty points. Neither do the Judges or Courts. Penalty points are attached to a driving licence by the RSA. A court has absolutely no input whatsoever. A conviction attracts the penalty points in certain cases. There is no garda of any rank than can add or reduce penalty points. Garda have no direct access to the penaly point database either. Just to dispel some myths!!

pitythefool · 10-12-2012 11:03AM

MickF wrote: »

Having read all the posts I felt I should clarify some matters. As someone with an "inside" knowledge of the whole fixed charge system I feel that some of the issues being raised are a little OTT. The system is relatively simple. If a person is detected speeding and receives a fixed penalty notice they are entitled to write to the local Suprtintendant where the fine was issued. If they feel they have a genuine reason for speeding they can "appeal" the fixed charge fine. The Supt. then sends it to the issueing Garda for his/her recommendations. Each case is dealt with on its own merits. I dealt with hundreds of such cases and in the vast majority of cases I would have recommended cancellation based on the cases put forward by the alleged offenders. I never once recommended cancellation where I didn't believe the case being put forward. Human nature being what it is people usually don't lie about sick relatives or family emergencies. Going to a football match or being late for an appointment was never considered an excuse. My answer was they should have allowed more time for their journey. Most of these alleged cancelled fixed charge notices would be justified in their own right. I am sure there may have been cases where outside influences may have been utilised but overall these cases would not amount to many. Every time a fixed charge notice was cancelled it would have had to a corresponding appeal letter and file number attached. It's very easy to speculate and surmise but the system has its own built in accountability. Another piece of clarification, the Gardai have absolutely no input in to penalty points. Neither do the Judges or Courts. Penalty points are attached to a driving licence by the RSA. A court has absolutely no input whatsoever. A conviction attracts the penalty points in certain cases. There is no garda of any rank than can add or reduce penalty points. Garda have no direct access to the penaly point database either. Just to dispel some myths!!

So is this the procedure they used to have their points recinded?

If so why the scandal?

Is there more to it?

Going Forward · 11-12-2012 01:41AM

MickF wrote: »

Having read all the posts I felt I should clarify some matters. As someone with an "inside" knowledge of the whole fixed charge system I feel that some of the issues being raised are a little OTT. The system is relatively simple. If a person is detected speeding and receives a fixed penalty notice they are entitled to write to the local Suprtintendant where the fine was issued. If they feel they have a genuine reason for speeding they can "appeal" the fixed charge fine. The Supt. then sends it to the issueing Garda for his/her recommendations. Each case is dealt with on its own merits. I dealt with hundreds of such cases and in the vast majority of cases I would have recommended cancellation based on the cases put forward by the alleged offenders. I never once recommended cancellation where I didn't believe the case being put forward. Human nature being what it is people usually don't lie about sick relatives or family emergencies. Going to a football match or being late for an appointment was never considered an excuse. My answer was they should have allowed more time for their journey. Most of these alleged cancelled fixed charge notices would be justified in their own right. I am sure there may have been cases where outside influences may have been utilised but overall these cases would not amount to many. Every time a fixed charge notice was cancelled it would have had to a corresponding appeal letter and file number attached. It's very easy to speculate and surmise but the system has its own built in accountability. Another piece of clarification, the Gardai have absolutely no input in to penalty points. Neither do the Judges or Courts. Penalty points are attached to a driving licence by the RSA. A court has absolutely no input whatsoever. A conviction attracts the penalty points in certain cases. There is no garda of any rank than can add or reduce penalty points. Garda have no direct access to the penaly point database either. Just to dispel some myths!!

From what you say: "no Garda of any rank" can reduce points, therefore the only ones left is the RSA, so does the RSA wipe the points, on recommendation from Superintendants?

It is believed the RSA was so concerned it referred the matter to the Garda Ombudsman Commission and the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General.

They want their own work to be investigated......??

expectationlost · 11-12-2012 02:49AM

sick relatives or family emergencies

isn't a reason to cancel points

Death and Taxes · 11-12-2012 09:56AM

MagicSean wrote: »

But what I am saying is that appealing to the Garda face to face and appealing the ticket of an automated camera to the Superintendent are exactly the same thing.

But the law which introduced penalty points made zero allowance for appeals to gardai, it made it quite clear that if yoy wish to contest the points you go to court.
Where on the fixed charge notice are you given the opportunity to appeal to the Gardai, you are not, but under the legislation no such appeal mechanism exists.
The notice makes it clear that you can go to court.
The Gardai as the the prosecuting authority would not be approriate body to be hearing these appeals anyway, that basic law.
Please read the entire Road Traffic Act 2002, nowhere in the act is the ad hoc appeal system set up by AGS legislated for, it appears is in direct breach of the act:http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0012/index.html

Death and Taxes · 11-12-2012 09:58AM

MickF wrote: »

Having read all the posts I felt I should clarify some matters. As someone with an "inside" knowledge of the whole fixed charge system I feel that some of the issues being raised are a little OTT. The system is relatively simple. If a person is detected speeding and receives a fixed penalty notice they are entitled to write to the local Suprtintendant where the fine was issued. If they feel they have a genuine reason for speeding they can "appeal" the fixed charge fine. The Supt. then sends it to the issueing Garda for his/her recommendations. Each case is dealt with on its own merits. I dealt with hundreds of such cases and in the vast majority of cases I would have recommended cancellation based on the cases put forward by the alleged offenders. I never once recommended cancellation where I didn't believe the case being put forward. Human nature being what it is people usually don't lie about sick relatives or family emergencies. Going to a football match or being late for an appointment was never considered an excuse. My answer was they should have allowed more time for their journey. Most of these alleged cancelled fixed charge notices would be justified in their own right. I am sure there may have been cases where outside influences may have been utilised but overall these cases would not amount to many. Every time a fixed charge notice was cancelled it would have had to a corresponding appeal letter and file number attached. It's very easy to speculate and surmise but the system has its own built in accountability. Another piece of clarification, the Gardai have absolutely no input in to penalty points. Neither do the Judges or Courts. Penalty points are attached to a driving licence by the RSA. A court has absolutely no input whatsoever. A conviction attracts the penalty points in certain cases. There is no garda of any rank than can add or reduce penalty points. Garda have no direct access to the penaly point database either. Just to dispel some myths!!

Please link to the section in the legislation setting up the penalty points system where this procedure is outlined.

MagicSean · 11-12-2012 10:39AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

But the law which introduced penalty points made zero allowance for appeals to gardai, it made it quite clear that if yoy wish to contest the points you go to court.
Where on the fixed charge notice are you given the opportunity to appeal to the Gardai, you are not, but under the legislation no such appeal mechanism exists.
The notice makes it clear that you can go to court.
The Gardai as the the prosecuting authority would not be approriate body to be hearing these appeals anyway, that basic law.
Please read the entire Road Traffic Act 2002, nowhere in the act is the ad hoc appeal system set up by AGS legislated for, it appears is in direct breach of the act:http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0012/index.html

In general, the law tells you what you can't do, not what you can. I can't see anything in that section that prohibits Gardai from exercising their discretion after the issue of a ticket and before the commencement of court proceedings.

I think you are going the wrong direction trying to make it out to be illegal. My own opinion is that the issue is more an ethical one than a legal one

Death and Taxes · 11-12-2012 10:56AM

MagicSean wrote: »

In general, the law tells you what you can't do, not what you can. I can't see anything in that section that prohibits Gardai from exercising their discretion after the issue of a ticket and before the commencement of court proceedings.

I think you are going the wrong direction trying to make it out to be illegal. My own opinion is that the issue is more an ethical one than a legal one

I cant see a section that grants them any such discretion to excersise.
So basically if the law doesnt say that the Gardai cant over-ride it then its ok?
You are kidding!
The legislation does not give the Gardi powers to create an appeal system, therefore they have no legal basis for doing so. The role of the Gardai is not to amend or adapt legislation, merely to implement it as it is.
It is wholly improper and dangerous in a democracy that the Gardai would choose to grant themselves a judicial function.

gozunda · 11-12-2012 10:59AM

I wonder what the going rate in ' brown envelopes' is for such services....

What this shows that despite the planning tribunals etc this country has not moved forward one inch in terms of transparency of process in relation to the application of the law.

Great little state altogether

Iwannahurl · 11-12-2012 11:25AM

MickF wrote: »

1. If a person is detected speeding and receives a fixed penalty notice they are entitled to write to the local Suprtintendant where the fine was issued. If they feel they have a genuine reason for speeding they can "appeal" the fixed charge fine. The Supt. then sends it to the issueing Garda for his/her recommendations.

2. Each case is dealt with on its own merits. I dealt with hundreds of such cases and in the vast majority of cases I would have recommended cancellation based on the cases put forward by the alleged offenders. I never once recommended cancellation where I didn't believe the case being put forward.

3. Human nature being what it is people usually don't lie about sick relatives or family emergencies.

4. Most of these alleged cancelled fixed charge notices would be justified in their own right.

5. I am sure there may have been cases where outside influences may have been utilised but overall these cases would not amount to many.

6. Every time a fixed charge notice was cancelled it would have had to a corresponding appeal letter and file number attached.

7. It's very easy to speculate and surmise but the system has its own built in accountability.

8. Garda have no direct access to the penaly point database either.

1. I presume this issue involves all penalty point offences and not just speeding. Where does that "entitlement" come from? Is there legislation covering both the grounds for submitting "genuine reasons" as well as the "appeals" process itself?

2. "Alleged offenders" -- a Garda issued a Fixed Charge Notice for an offence, the motorist appealed to you, you adjudicated on the case, made a recommendation to quash the FCN and a higher authority in AGS made the final judgment? All on the basis of what legislation exactly?***

3. Sorry, I may be accused of cynicism here but I don't share your views on human nature and people's reactions to traffic fines!

I have been clamped once in my life and have received the grand total of one parking ticket. I gritted my teeth and put up with the clamp (it was a reduced fine for being 10 minutes over time in a municipal car park) but I tried to appeal the ticket, and why wouldn't I if I thought there was a chance that it would be rescinded?

4. "Justified in their own right" -- how do you know, and what is the legislative basis for such "justification"?

5. "These cases would not amount to many" -- how do you know, what "outside influences" do you mean, and why would "outside influences" be relevant?

6. Does this mean that if the allegation of 90,000 cases is correct then there is a corresponding number of "appeal" letters on file? Reviewing all that documentation sounds like a very big investigation to me...

7. "The system" -- is the system defined in law, and how is it made accountable in law?

8. AGS may have no access to the Penalty Points sytem, but if there is a "system" being run independently by AGS, which can ensure that some people do not get penalty points, why would such access be an issue?

MagicSean wrote: »

In general, the law tells you what you can't do, not what you can. I can't see anything in that section that prohibits Gardai from exercising their discretion after the issue of a ticket and before the commencement of court proceedings.

I think you are going the wrong direction trying to make it out to be illegal. My own opinion is that the issue is more an ethical one than a legal one

***Incidentally, does this "appeals" process apply only to motoring offences, which fall under Criminal law afaik? The Pulse system records all sorts of other criminal offences; if a Garda charges me with a non-motoring offence, can I appeal to a Superintendent in the same way in order to have the charge "terminated" thereby avoiding a court appearance and a possible criminal conviction? If not, why would Traffic offences be treated differently from other Criminal Law offences of a comparably serious nature?

.

MagicSean · 11-12-2012 11:51AM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

***Incidentally, does this "appeals" process apply only to motoring offences, which fall under Criminal law afaik? The Pulse system records all sorts of other criminal offences; if a Garda charges me with a non-motoring offence, can I appeal to a Superintendent in the same way in order to have the charge "terminated" thereby avoiding a court appearance and a possible criminal conviction? If not, why would Traffic offences be treated differently from other Criminal Law offences of a comparably serious nature?

It applies to fixed charge penalties. They are limited in their application to traffic and minor public order offences. Fixed charge penalties are not a prosecution, they are a precursor to a prosecution.

charlemont · 11-12-2012 11:55AM

The sickening thing is these are the very people that can afford the fines.

gozunda · 11-12-2012 12:10PM

charlemont wrote: »

The sickening thing is these are the very people that can afford the fines.

They probably 'pay' all right but not in any official manner....

As I said this behaviour appears to be still epidemic. Dev's Ireland is still very much with us ...

In order:

The bishop

The politician

The priest

The local Garda

The school master

Paragons of virtue - without question

Oh I nearly forgot - the mass of peasants at the bottom of it all....

11-12-2012 12:14PM

Well what do you know?

I just hope AT LAST more of this exposure keeps coming because it is by no means limited to penalty points being deleted! Maybe we will finally hold the saying "not above the law" anyway whatsoever credible when referring to the Garda.

Whistleblowers you blow my world.

RustyNut · 11-12-2012 12:26PM

Jay D wrote: »

Well what do you know?

I just hope AT LAST more of this exposure keeps coming because it is by no means limited to penalty points being deleted! Maybe we will finally hold the saying "not above the law" anyway whatsoever credible when referring to the Garda.

Whistleblowers you blow my world.

Sure it's all good, it's being investigated by the Gardai.

Daith · 11-12-2012 12:29PM

RustyNut wrote: »

Sure it's all good, it's being investigated by the Gardai.

Gardai investigating Gardai? Who watches the watchers indeed

Augmerson · 11-12-2012 01:02PM

seamus wrote: »

2. At least one Garda has no problem breaking ranks in order to try and do the right thing. This kind of behaviour has been on the increase in recent years with young Gardai arresting senior Gardai for minor things like speeding and drink-driving, and this report is just another welcome example that things are constantly getting better in the force.

The Guard in question was initially rebuffed by seniors when he highlighted this issue with them, he had to go over their heads to get anything done.

This was 50,000 cases. That's a staggering amount of corruption. Perhaps not every one of those 50,000 interventions or quashed points was dodgy but if even 1,000 were, that's pretty bad, but fair play for trying to paint a smiley face on it all.

Death and Taxes · 11-12-2012 01:37PM

MagicSean wrote: »

It applies to fixed charge penalties. They are limited in their application to traffic and minor public order offences. Fixed charge penalties are not a prosecution, they are a precursor to a prosecution.

By what lawful authority does thios appeals process exist?
Simple question.
The legislation is explicit, once the fixed penalty notice is issued it must either be paid, or if addressed to the wrong person it the lawful owner must fill in a declaration stating who was driving, or make your case in court.
However the Garda appear to have decided to grant themselves a judicial power by intervening in the process and arranging to cancel penalty points for reasons other than the registered owner naming another person as the driver.

expectationlost · 11-12-2012 07:19PM

fixed charge notices canceled with thus then means points not applied

the issue was just raised in the dail again shatter said something about "fixed charge processing user manual 2005".. something like that, i didn't quite catch it, he said there were specific rules laid out for appeal but didn't cite any numbered rule

shatter says medical emergency as reason to repeal fixed charges for traffic offenses, that judge must be unfortunate

expectationlost · 11-12-2012 08:37PM

dail transcript http://oireachtasdebates.oireachtas.ie/debates%20authoring/debateswebpack.nsf/takes/dail2012121100032?opendocument

Garda superintendents, district officers, inspectors or acting district officers have discretion to authorise cancellation in appropriate circumstances of fixed charge notices. These can include situations where, for example, exemptions apply to emergency vehicles, or where there are evidential difficulties, such as where the registration number registered by a speed camera does not correspond to the vehicle in question, or where there are emergency medical circumstances such as, for example, a medical certificate relating to the wearing of seatbelts, a sick child being driven to hospital, an imminent birth, a medical professional rushing to a sick or elderly patient or a driver of an ambulance response vehicle. Access to terminate a fixed charge processing incident through PULSE is restricted to users with a rank of inspector or higher.

but which numbered rule is it?

Going Forward · 11-12-2012 11:28PM

Augmerson wrote: »

The Guard in question was initially rebuffed by seniors when he highlighted this issue with them, he had to go over their heads to get anything done.

This was 50,000 cases. That's a staggering amount of corruption. Perhaps not every one of those 50,000 interventions or quashed points was dodgy but if even 1,000 were, that's pretty bad, but fair play for trying to paint a smiley face on it all.

And there seems to be a lot of people on here trying to play down the whole thing..........

I also wonder do statistics exist for the amount of times judges have had to accept the plea of "I never got the letter in the post" relating to the points system. The whole system needs to be tightened up IMO.

MickF · 11-12-2012 11:34PM

As stated, the penalty point system is not operated by Gardai. A Garda Inspector or above can cancel a fixed charge notice which is what this whole debate is about. Penalty points are the end result of the whole process ie, following a court appearence and conviction. As already stated by another poster there are numerous reasons why a fixed charge notice might be cancelled. They are not cancelled as easily as you might be led to believe. The whole issue is pure sensationalism by the media. The facts have been mis -interpretted and I have no doubt there will be clarification down the road. t's a great diversion from the budget!!

Daith · 11-12-2012 11:39PM

MickF wrote: »

The facts have been mis -interpretted and I have no doubt there will be clarification down the road.

Yes, I'm sure the investigation of the guards by the guards will come to that conclusion too.

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 12:23AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

By what lawful authority does thios appeals process exist?
Simple question.
The legislation is explicit, once the fixed penalty notice is issued it must either be paid, or if addressed to the wrong person it the lawful owner must fill in a declaration stating who was driving, or make your case in court.
However the Garda appear to have decided to grant themselves a judicial power by intervening in the process and arranging to cancel penalty points for reasons other than the registered owner naming another person as the driver.

I think I already mentioned it. Gardaí have a common law power of discretion as to wether they initiate a prosecution and that is what the cancellation of a fixed charge penalty is.

Maybe you agree with them having this power and maybe you don't. Personally I think it is necessary for effective policing. I don't think it's fair to force someone to go to court because they went a kilometer or two above the speed limit or because their tax disc got lost in the post. I think if a Garda stops a car with no tax with a family in it he should have the choice as to wether to seize the car and put them out in the rain or give them a chance to rectify the situation over the next few days.

MagicSean · 12-12-2012 12:29AM

Also, just on the topic of Clare Daly and her righteous brothers and sisters throwing out peoples names under parliamentary priviledge. They have no idea for what reasons these people had their tickets cancelled. If they were so sure of their facts they would be naming them outside of the Dáil but they won't because they know they are leaving themselves open to defamation litigation if one of the people named has a reasonable excuse. A disgraceful abuse of the parliamentary priviledge as far as I'm concerned.

expectationlost · 12-12-2012 12:37AM

MickF wrote: »

As stated, the penalty point system is not operated by Gardai. A Garda Inspector or above can cancel a fixed charge notice which is what this whole debate is about. Penalty points are the end result of the whole process ie, following a court appearence and conviction. As already stated by another poster there are numerous reasons why a fixed charge notice might be cancelled. They are not cancelled as easily as you might be led to believe. The whole issue is pure sensationalism by the media. The facts have been mis -interpretted and I have no doubt there will be clarification down the road. t's a great diversion from the budget!!

under what law specifically

MagicSean wrote: »

I think I already mentioned it. Gardaí have a common law power of discretion as to wether they initiate a prosecution and that is what the cancellation of a fixed charge penalty is.

what law, it has to be written down somewhere because shatter listed some specifics of the reasons where is getting that from?

what laws or combinations of law allow this

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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