Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

serfboard · 07-12-2012 03:54PM

J K wrote: »

Has this been established yet.

Actually nothing has been established yet. To date, they are just allegations.

noxqs · 07-12-2012 04:11PM

The amount of people who think this isn't the worst thing doesn't understand how to combat corruption.

There is always "bigger issues" but if corruption isn't fought hard at every level at every infraction it grows and grows.

And when the police force of a nation feel themselves above the law and gets to be judges over who should go free or not, you don't see this as a massive problem? The very fact that they believe they're somehow entitled to do so and that it was a "culture" thing that had been breed for years inside the gardai is absolutely shocking.

But oh right - theres bigger things so let the corruption slide eh?

Going Forward · 07-12-2012 06:50PM

J K wrote: »

Yes but were those points "rescinded" based on a legitimate appeal to a Garda Superintendent. Or based on a personal favor. It is yet to be shown that any one of these is the latter. The assumption that is being made is that overturned fines/points had no basis to be appealed. Has this been established yet. Or should this not be investigated first?

There's a legal appeal process outlined on the correspondence accompanying penalty points notices.

It doesn't operate on a nod and wink basis, nor on whether one plays golf with the Super.

MagicSean · 07-12-2012 06:54PM

noxqs wrote: »

The amount of people who think this isn't the worst thing doesn't understand how to combat corruption.

There is always "bigger issues" but if corruption isn't fought hard at every level at every infraction it grows and grows.

And when the police force of a nation feel themselves above the law and gets to be judges over who should go free or not, you don't see this as a massive problem? The very fact that they believe they're somehow entitled to do so and that it was a "culture" thing that had been breed for years inside the gardai is absolutely shocking.

But oh right - theres bigger things so let the corruption slide eh?

So you would prefer a police force that had no discretion on prosecution? Tax one day out of date. €80 fine. 1kmph over the speed limit. €80 fine and two points. Slightly over the stop line? Another fine. My arse you would.

J K · 07-12-2012 07:07PM

Going Forward wrote: »

There's a legal appeal process outlined on the correspondence accompanying penalty points notices.

It doesn't operate on a nod and wink basis, nor on whether one plays golf with the Super.

So all your knowledge on how this can be appealed or overturned is based on what you read on the ticket? Or do you have other law to link to?

Going Forward · 07-12-2012 07:35PM

J K wrote: »

So all your knowledge on how this can be appealed or overturned is based on what you read on the ticket? Or do you have other law to link to?

Correct, there's no mention of the possibility of being let off on the grounds of ones social standing or connections.

MagicSean · 07-12-2012 07:36PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Correct, there's no mention of the possibility of being let off on the grounds of ones social standing or connections.

No evidence to suggest that happened either.

J K · 07-12-2012 07:42PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Correct, there's no mention of the possibility of being let off on the grounds of ones social standing or connections.

Yeah, correct, you have zero knowledge on the topic.

RustyNut · 07-12-2012 09:29PM

MagicSean wrote: »

So you would prefer a police force that had no discretion on prosecution? Tax one day out of date. €80 fine. 1kmph over the speed limit. €80 fine and two points. Slightly over the stop line? Another fine. My arse you would.

Then a lot more people would tax their car,stick to the speed limits and stop at stop lines. Sounds like it might be worth a try.

Going Forward · 07-12-2012 09:56PM

MagicSean wrote: »

So you would prefer a police force that had no discretion on prosecution? Tax one day out of date. €80 fine. 1kmph over the speed limit. €80 fine and two points. Slightly over the stop line? Another fine. My arse you would.

Yes. One law, as written.

And "discretion" as conventionally accepted, may be expected to be utilised "at the roadside" in a face to face situation.

It is stretching things just a bit to expect discretion to be invoked when offences have already been detected and logged, for example by electronic means such as speed vans etc; otherwise the whole system would collapse with each and every penalty point recipient submitting letters of plea to Superintendents, with each person believing their excuse to be of higher merit than anyone else's.

Going Forward · 07-12-2012 10:03PM

MagicSean wrote: »

No evidence to suggest that happened either.

Those are the allegations.
And theres no smoke without fire either.

Do you really think that any brothers or sisters, wives, husbands of gardai, and judges etc actually have penalty points, even though they were caught??

I know, this is conjecture but like it or not no one really expects them to be carrying points around for 3 years like the rest of us.

J K · 07-12-2012 10:08PM

Going Forward wrote: »

Yes. One law, as written.

And "discretion" as conventionally accepted, may be utilised "at the roadside" in a face to face situation.

It is stretching things just a bit to expect discretion to be invoked when offences have already been detected and logged, for example by electronic means such as speed vans etc; otherwise the whole system would collapse with each and every penalty point recipient submitting letters of plea to Superintendents, with each person believing their excuse to be of higher merit than anyone else's.

Even with serious crimes, charges are struck out, withdrawn or nolle prosequi entered by either DPP or Gardai quite often in Court. If this is done for appropriate and just reasons then it's ok. If it's because as you said a golf game or a nod and a wink it is not. Going back decades Garda Superintendents always canceled minor traffic offenses and tickets subject to appeal from the person. This is not a new thing. The only question here is if it is being done for the right reason. If you say that maybe it's not being done for the right reason that's a whole different ball game.

Ash.J.Williams · 07-12-2012 10:39PM

Anyway....why is all this surprising? You would want to be a very unpopular gaa star to get penalty points in this country....

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 12:04AM

J K wrote: »

Even with serious crimes, charges are struck out, withdrawn or nolle prosequi entered by either DPP or Gardai quite often in Court. If this is done for appropriate and just reasons then it's ok. If it's because as you said a golf game or a nod and a wink it is not. Going back decades Garda Superintendents always canceled minor traffic offenses and tickets subject to appeal from the person. This is not a new thing. The only question here is if it is being done for the right reason. If you say that maybe it's not being done for the right reason that's a whole different ball game.

What would an appropriate reason be?
Please cancel my points because:
I was just speeding because I was late for work / I was just a little over the limit / I just forgot to tax it / I am married to your cousin / I am entitled to have them cancelled because I am a VIP??

This can lead to an abuse of power, favouritism, corruption and croneyism.
And its not as if the Gardai historically have a great record in that department , so to read of allegations that well the connected and celebrities in society are being given preferential treatment relating to something as banal as penalty points offences is worrying.

Cases that are at court stage, DPP etc are a completely separate and more complex subject.

J K · 08-12-2012 12:41AM

Why are cases that Gardai withdraw at Court stage seperate?

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 02:10AM

J K wrote: »

Why are cases that Gardai withdraw at Court stage seperate?

It is a separate topic because the issue at hand is about claims of penalty points being wiped before any court appearances.

Those cases are usually more complex and less clear cut than the usual "shooting fish in a barrell" type of black and white penalty point cases which are alleged to have have been wiped.

But everything is going to be sorted because the Garda Commissioner has said that he's going to check out what the Gardai were up to. Not the Ombudsman, but the Gardai investigating the Gardai. That will reassure the sceptics no doubt.

J K · 08-12-2012 02:16AM

Going Forward wrote: »

It is a separate topic because the issue at hand is

Because you can't answer the question you decide it's a topic you don't want to discuss. The same law and regulations apply to both, each is a prosecution withdrawn by the Gardai.

Here's the question again. What's the difference?

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 11:14AM

J K wrote: »

Because you can't answer the question you decide it's a topic you don't want to discuss. The same law and regulations apply to both, each is a prosecution withdrawn by the Gardai.

Here's the question again. What's the difference?

Fixed charge penalties are not a prosecution. They are an alternative to a prosecution.

Once a case is before the courts it is the judge that decides wether to strike it out. The Garda can only make an application to do so.

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 11:17AM

RustyNut wrote: »

Then a lot more people would tax their car,stick to the speed limits and stop at stop lines. Sounds like it might be worth a try.

Preach all you want but there is no way you would want to live under a system that strict.

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 11:25AM

J K wrote: »

Because you can't answer the question you decide it's a topic you don't want to discuss. The same law and regulations apply to both, each is a prosecution withdrawn by the Gardai.

Here's the question again. What's the difference?

I'm not sure why you want me to tell you whether I think theres a difference?

Theres no great difference obviously, in that the principle is the same.

What is different is that what you refer to happens in the open, in the public eye, whilst the wiping of penalty points is done covertly.

Why do you think the Commissioner is promising an investigation, or in other words is he and others stupid to be even concerned about the allegations?

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 11:28AM

Going Forward wrote: »

What would an appropriate reason be?
Please cancel my points because:
I was just speeding because I was late for work / I was just a little over the limit / I just forgot to tax it / I am married to your cousin / I am entitled to have them cancelled because I am a VIP??

My car was stolen, my reg was cloned, I had a medical emergency, my wife/mother/son was driving at the time, the tax office mislaid my tax/nct/insurance disc, I was delayed paying my tax because my bank had a melt down and I couldn't access my funds, my child tore up my tax disc, the stop/speed limit sign was obstructed, the road markings were not in place due to road works, my child took off his seat belt while I was driving.

If you'd like to break it down offence by offence we can do that either.

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 11:29AM

Going Forward wrote: »

Yes. One law, as written.

And "discretion" as conventionally accepted, may be expected to be utilised "at the roadside" in a face to face situation.

It is stretching things just a bit to expect discretion to be invoked when offences have already been detected and logged, for example by electronic means such as speed vans etc; otherwise the whole system would collapse with each and every penalty point recipient submitting letters of plea to Superintendents, with each person believing their excuse to be of higher merit than anyone else's.

Discretion cannot really be used by an automated camera now can it.

cup of tea · 08-12-2012 11:34AM

Think of all the people who were going to be issued penalty points but were instead allowed to drive on once they realised who they were, probably a way higher figure. The ole excuse I'm a garda like yourself stationed in X probably gets used every time a Guard is stopped in their private vehicle with the danger of peno points.

jonsnow · 08-12-2012 11:37AM

Glad to hear that the Commissioner is so open minded anyway.:rolleyes:“There is no question of what has been described as a culture of non-enforcement of penalties being tolerated by An Garda Síochána,”.How does he know that there is no such culture before the "comprehensive and rigorous" investigation is completed.Hes preemting the findings.This "investigation" is a stalling tactic plain and simply and will never get to the bottom of any allegations.The whistleblowers have been given no cover by the government and will end up being ostracised and with destroyed careers.Disgraceful.

An investigation of garda practices by the gardai is completely valueless.That has been proven time and time again.We have an independent body set up investigate corrupt practices by the gardai so why doesnt it be allowed to do its job.

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 03:01PM

MagicSean wrote: »

My car was stolen, my reg was cloned, I had a medical emergency, my wife/mother/son was driving at the time, the tax office mislaid my tax/nct/insurance disc, I was delayed paying my tax because my bank had a melt down and I couldn't access my funds, my child tore up my tax disc, the stop/speed limit sign was obstructed, the road markings were not in place due to road works, my child took off his seat belt while I was driving.

If you'd like to break it down offence by offence we can do that either.

And the dog ate my homework.

Take the points and the punishment like a man.

rebeve · 08-12-2012 03:02PM

kneemos wrote: »

Never heard of much or any corruption in the Gardi.

Donegal

MagicSean · 08-12-2012 03:05PM

Going Forward wrote: »

And the dog ate my homework.

Take the points and the punishment like a man.

You asked for legitimate reasons I gave you loads. If you want to dispute one go ahead.

Why would you take a punishment you didn't deserve?

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 09:07PM

MagicSean wrote: »

You asked for legitimate reasons I gave you loads. If you want to dispute one go ahead.

Why would you take a punishment you didn't deserve?

The first two are certainly legitimate as your crime report would be on file.

The rest would have to be addressed by the appeals procedure on the fixed penalty charge notice.

I wonder how many of the tens of thousands of motorists who have had their points benevolently quashed were victims of car theft or had their cars cloned.

Going Forward · 08-12-2012 09:28PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Discretion cannot really be used by an automated camera now can it.

Thats what I'm saying, face to face with a Garda.

If the Garda utilises his discretion on the spot, so be it, good for you, good for the Gaurds, building repect and rapport with the public, public relations with the Gaurds etc and all that, I actually have no issue with that.

I do have an issue with records being changed covertly and this is where discretionary powers could be abused wholesale for financial gain, professional favours etc.

There exists an open and transparent public appeals system, anyone can appeal their points in court.

RustyNut · 08-12-2012 10:40PM

MagicSean wrote: »

My car was stolen, my reg was cloned, I had a medical emergency, my wife/mother/son was driving at the time, the tax office mislaid my tax/nct/insurance disc, I was delayed paying my tax because my bank had a melt down and I couldn't access my funds, my child tore up my tax disc, the stop/speed limit sign was obstructed, the road markings were not in place due to road works, my child took off his seat belt while I was driving.

If you'd like to break it down offence by offence we can do that either.

If you have a legitimate reason for committing an offence then court should be the place to deal with it.

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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