Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

humanji · 06-12-2012 01:48PM

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Who the **** is Padraig McNally?

If you're being pedantic, you're not being clever. If you're actually confused, we were meant to say "Nally", not "McNally"

06-12-2012 01:48PM

Compared to some of the cases that end up only being manslaughter I find it very surprising that this one was a murder charge, never mind the life sentence given.

My name is URL · 06-12-2012 01:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Compared to some of the cases that end up only being manslaughter I find it very surprising that this one was a murder charge, never mind the life sentence given.

What sentence should he have been given considering he was found guilty of murder?

archer22 · 06-12-2012 01:50PM

Sounds to me like the verdict was computed this way..Manslaughter + Chinese =Murder

Super-Rush · 06-12-2012 01:50PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

But a life sentence is mandatory for murder in this country. Have you a link to this case you speak of, S-R?

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

Heres another.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/clare-manslaughter-pair-jailed-for-a-further-two-years-3150533.html

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

My point is it should not matter about Nationality and in plenty of cases there is proof that it does not matter(and should never matter)

You do the crime and you should do the time

My point exactly.

06-12-2012 01:51PM

My name is URL wrote: »

What sentence should he have been given considering he was found guilty of murder?

Is there not the usual "minimum" then set by the judge?

I've no issue with this case in isolation, it's compared to others that it concerns me.

El Weirdo · 06-12-2012 01:52PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

Heres another.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/clare-manslaughter-pair-jailed-for-a-further-two-years-3150533.html

Those two weren't convicted of murder though.

humanji · 06-12-2012 01:52PM

archer22 wrote: »

Sounds to me like the verdict was computed this way..Manslaughter + Chinese =Murder

Slight correction there:

Chasing a man down and kicking him until he was dead =/= manslaughter.

If you, a random internet user, thinks that it was a racially motivated court case, then do you not think that those attending the court, including the shopkeeper's legal team, would have also realised that? Or maybe, it was irrelevant?

06-12-2012 01:53PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Those two weren't convicted of murder though.

That's kind of what's annoying. One guy loses it and kicks someone to death = murder, someone else does it, and also uses "a number of household items" and it's only manslaughter.

Super-Rush · 06-12-2012 01:54PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Those two weren't convicted of murder though.

Exactly my point.

Chinese man kicks man to death and gets convicted of murder.

Irish man kicks man to death and gets convicted of manslaughter.

Odysseus · 06-12-2012 01:54PM

I would not see it as murder, I cannot see any intent there. On a personal level I was on the same meds a few years back. 3 fcukers tried to mug me in a park by my Mams; they got nothing but during the altercation I took a smack of a U-Lock to the head.

Now because of the meds I was on it took hours to stop the bleeding. There is a possibility that if I had been hit harder or in another part of my head it could have been the end of me.

If it was I would see that as manslaughter.

I hate the anti-addicts that pop up in threads like this. Was the chap not clean a few months, someone also called him a methhead, do we know if he was on methadone.

Of course we have to remember that the jury would have had access to a lot more info that we get from that article

Hick1sfm · 06-12-2012 01:59PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I would not see it as murder, I cannot see any intent there. On a personal level I was on the same meds a few years back. 3 fcukers tried to mug me in a park by my Mams; they got nothing but during the altercation I took a smack of a U-Lock to the head.

Now because of the meds I was on it took hours to stop the bleeding. There is a possibility that if I had been hit harder or in another part of my head it could have been the end of me.

If it was I would see that as manslaughter.

I hate the anti-addicts that pop up in threads like this. Was the chap not clean a few months, someone also called him a methhead, do we know if he was on methadone.

Of course we have to remember that the jury would have had access to a lot more info that we get from that article

going by the papers he was on methadone for 7 years. just replaced one drug with another. 7 years is long time to be recovering. another waster. wont be missed

Mod: User Banned.

My name is URL · 06-12-2012 01:59PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Is there not the usual "minimum" then set by the judge?

I've no issue with this case in isolation, it's compared to others that it concerns me.

Murder carries a mandatory sentence. There's not much the judge could do really. The jury found the guy guilty, not the judge.

I agree that there's a horrible inconsistency with sentencing in Ireland, but that shouldn't be used to argue that the guy in this case should have been treated with leniency just because of that.

Reloc8 · 06-12-2012 02:00PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

An Irish man kicks his father to death and get six years.

A Chinese man kicks a man to death and gets life.

Calling it like i see it.

Also i think the man in this case deserved the life sentence.

Like this :

http://www.herald.ie/news/man-gets-11-years-for-kicking-young-father-to-death-near-airport-1916942.html

TL:DR irish thug kicks estonian victim to death gets 13 years with 2 suspended.

06-12-2012 02:01PM

My name is URL wrote: »

I agree that there's a horrible inconsistency with sentencing in Ireland, but that shouldn't be used to argue that the guy in this case should have been treated with leniency.

Except that often it is used as an excuse for inadequate sentencing and charges under the name "precedence".

aidan24326 · 06-12-2012 02:01PM

omahaid wrote: »

And another one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/manslaughter-verdict-for-frenzied-stabbing-attack-327513.html

"Mr Moore died after being stabbed 39 times on the balcony of his flat. During the trial, the court had heard that stab wounds had been "sliced across the neck". Other wounds had cut through his heart and punctured his lungs."

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

There is no consistency at all. I think the Chinese guy has been a bit unlucky with the sentence he's got. By the usual standards of Irish courts I'd have expected a manslaughter conviction rather than murder, since there wasn't any prior intent and he was a guy who had no criminal history. We've all seen equivalent (or possibly worse) cases receive much more lenient sentences. If this guy deserves life then the two dirtbags who killed the teacher in Clare deserve to be fed to a pack of starving wild boars.

Reloc8 wrote: »

Its just ****ing ridiculous that people who didn't sit a day in court to hear the evidence in this case think their opinion is likely to be superior to the conclusion of 12 people who listened carefully to every word said and then went away collectively and came to a unanimous decision, having spent 10 hours over 3 days considering their verdict.

It wasn't unanimous. 10-2 verdict.

BizzyC · 06-12-2012 02:03PM

Manslaughter is for when you perform an act that isn't usually fatal or could not be interpreted as an attempt to kill.

Kicking someone in the head repeatedly is not one of those.
It was murder, end of.

El Weirdo · 06-12-2012 02:04PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

Exactly my point.

Chinese man kicks man to death and gets convicted of murder.

Irish man kicks man to death and gets convicted of manslaughter.

Apologies, I thought you were saying he would have got a more lenient sentence if he was Irish.

The thing is though, it's the DPP that decide on what a defendant is charged with based on whether or not they believe they can get a conviction with the evidence that they have available. Now, unless most of the posters here are privvy to exactly the same information as the DPP, rather than a couple of lines in the national press, I'm not sure that they can be so absolutely certain that they're making incorrect decisions.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-12-2012 02:04PM

BizzyC wrote: »

Kicking someone in the head repeatedly is not one of those.
It was murder, end of.

+1

It was murder. Anyone who cant see this is not sure of what Murder stands for imo.

Super-Rush · 06-12-2012 02:07PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Apologies, I thought you were saying he would have got a more lenient sentence if he was Irish.

Thats exactly what i'm saying.

My name is URL · 06-12-2012 02:07PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

Exactly my point.

Chinese man kicks man to death and gets convicted of murder.

Irish man kicks man to death and gets convicted of manslaughter.

So you still thing the decision to charge him with murder was based mostly on the guys race?

Chinese people have been convicted of manslaughter in Ireland before, and Irish people are often convicted of murder. It's silly to assume that race comes into it.

Rascasse · 06-12-2012 02:08PM

aidan24326 wrote: »

I'd have expected a manslaughter conviction rather than murder, since there wasn't any prior intent...

A lot of people mentioning intent. Unless Irish law is much different to the UK, intent to kill does not need to be proved for a murder conviction. This guy knew that by repeatedly kicking someone in the back of the head he was causing grievous bodily harm, therefore murder.

Pompey Magnus · 06-12-2012 02:08PM

A quote from Brother Kevin Crowley who does fantastic work in the Capuchin Day Centre and who knew the victim, or as some here call him, "the scumbag":

"He was a lovely guy. He was very gentle. We are very disturbed by the death he got. He was here yesterday. He did not deserve the death he got. He was loved by everyone and never in trouble. He was always very quiet and most obliging. Whoever is responsible for his death has to answer for it."

My heart goes out to his poor daughter who sent him the "call me" text.

El Weirdo · 06-12-2012 02:10PM

Super-Rush wrote: »

Thats exactly what i'm saying.

But that's impossible. He got the mandatory sentence, the same as an Irish, German, English, Polish, or Japanese person would.

06-12-2012 02:10PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

The thing is though, it's the DPP that decide on what a defendant is charged with based on whether or not they believe they can get a conviction with the evidence that they have available. Now, unless most of the posters here are privvy to exactly the same information as the DPP, rather than a couple of lines in the national press, I'm not sure that they can be so absolutely certain that they're making incorrect decisions.

You're right, they're right, we should question nothing unless we're absolutely certain.

If one losing their temper and kicking someone to death is murder then fine, so must kicking and beating someone to death using "several household items". The DPP go for convictions, whatever the charge. The number of murder convictions is generally in the single digits per year in Ireland but the crimes themselves are recorded by the state as murders: http://www.crimecouncil.gov.ie/statistics_cri_crime_murder.html

Super-Rush · 06-12-2012 02:11PM

My name is URL wrote: »

So you still thing the decision to charge him with murder was based mostly on the guys race?

Chinese people have been convicted of manslaughter in Ireland before, and Irish people are often convicted of murder. It's silly to assume that race comes into it.

I'm saying that its far too much of a coincidence that a non national who was attacked and then killed the man who attacked him gets charged with murder when Irish people get charged with manslaughter for unprovoked attacks on people.

Super-Rush · 06-12-2012 02:14PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

But that's impossible. He got the mandatory sentence, the same as an Irish, German, English, Polish, or Japanese person would.

I have no issue with the sentence, none whatsoever.

My issue is that in the cases i linked to, the accused killed people in unprovoked attacked and were charged with manslaughter while this man was charged with murder.

Surely you don't think that is right.

archer22 · 06-12-2012 02:14PM

Pompey Magnus wrote: »

A quote from Brother Kevin Crowley who does fantastic work in the Capuchin Day Centre and who knew the victim, or as some here call him, "the scumbag":

"He was a lovely guy. He was very gentle. We are very disturbed by the death he got. He was here yesterday. He did not deserve the death he got. He was loved by everyone and never in trouble. He was always very quiet and most obliging. Whoever is responsible for his death has to answer for it."

My heart goes out to his poor daughter who sent him the "call me" text.

If he was so "lovely" what was he doing going around not paying in shops and throwing punches at shop owners!!.."lovely" yeah right.

El Weirdo · 06-12-2012 02:14PM

Deleted User wrote: »

You're right, they're right, we should question nothing unless we're absolutely certain.

I didn't say we shouldn't question it, just that a lot of posters on here are happy to bleat on about how broken our justice system is whilst clearly having no clue as to how it actually works.

Pompey Magnus · 06-12-2012 02:15PM

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/witness-tells-how-dublin-murder-accused-kicked-victim-in-head-575370.html

“The accused threw the victim out of the shop and the victim fell on the ground,” he said, describing the victim as having a homeless appearance. “He kicked him a few times in the back and head.”

He said the victim was on all fours and trying to crawl away when the accused paused.

“I thought he’d stopped, but he kicked him fairly firmly in the skull,” he continued, comparing its force with that of a long-distance kick in football.

Mr Nerney said the victim then vomited and did not seem to recover after that.

He said the accused didn’t seem overly enraged while he was kicking the victim and gave him the two-fingered gesture afterwards.

Defending his business my arse.

Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

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