Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

unkel

An aggressive, lying customer hit the shop owner, refused to pay and did a runner. The shop owner went after him and kicked him repeatedly. The "customer" unfortunately died

Surely this is only manslaughter at the very most?

Linky

smash

Over 70c... fcuking disgusting

stevedublin

So the customer made the first punch?

Andy-Pandy

If you kick people in the head when they are on the ground and they die, it is murder, end of.

crusher000

No justification in kicking anyone to death. Justice in this circumstance has been served.

ElleEm

"The customer unfortunatly died"????

Cos he was KICKED TO DEATH!!!!

Remmy

He kicked him in the head multiple times when he was on the ground. For murder you need to have the intent to kill or cause serious injury (Check), and the actus rea of that actually occuring (Check).

staker

Tragic all round tbh.

Spunge

Kind of feel bad for the chap, constantly junkies coming into that place pissing off everyone, this probably sent him over the edge.

freddiek

people often complain about lenient sentencing, theone handed out here seems entirely correct

omahaid

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

If you kick people in the head when they are on the ground and they die, it is murder, end of.

Is it now...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/clare-manslaughter-pair-jailed-for-a-further-two-years-3150533.html

Manslaughter conviction for these guys. I've given up on the irish justice system, no justice anymore.

Irishcrx

It's murder , he kicked him in the head multple times while he was on the ground. It's not like he punched him and he hit his head on the curb or fell back in front of a car, that's manslaughter. This is murder and he deserves what he gets.

saiint

he kicked him in the head repeatedly
clearly trying to cause serious injury
you on drugs OP? your a judge arnt you...

crusher000

The last straw, but he is now paying dearly for a moment of loss of control. If we all reacted this way the world wouldn't be that great a place.

El Weirdo

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a lenient sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a hefty sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Can't win, can they?

Andy-Pandy

omahaid wrote: »

Is it now...

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/clare-manslaughter-pair-jailed-for-a-further-two-years-3150533.html

Manslaughter conviction for these guys. I've given up on the irish justice system, no justice anymore.

Wow, that is a serious case of misjustice, i would agree with you there and if this thread had been about that I would have said that they should have gotten charged with murder. This is a tragic case, and i feel sorry for the shop keeper, but its still a just sentence.

aaronjumper

El Weirdo wrote: »

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a lenient sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a hefty sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Can't win, can they?

No justice in after hours anymore.

mitosis

Manslaughter, victim's medication was a "contributory factor in his death" which Zhao could not have known. He did not attempt to kill him.

omahaid

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

Wow, that is a serious case of misjustice, i would agree with you there and if this thread had been about that I would have said that they should have gotten charged with murder. This is a tragic case, and i feel sorry for the shop keeper, but its still a just sentence.

There's so many inconsistent sentences from the Irish judiciary I really have little faith. Do you really think a murder conviction is right in this case? It really strikes me as a manslaughter act.

Ghandee

70c or 7 million euro, you don't kick another human being to death.

It really is that simple.

Remmy

mitosis wrote: »

Manslaughter, victim's medication was a "contributory factor in his death" which Zhao could not have known. He did not attempt to kill him.

I'm not 100% but I think this principle applies in criminal law also. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eggshell_skull

DARK-KNIGHT

absolutely shocking and disgusting act to kick someone never mind kicking someone in the head..

shopowner or worker deserved the sentence. how could anyone think a manslaughter verdict would suffice.

that man had 2 kids, will the family ever get over this? highly unlikely tbh.

shopowner said junkies or drinkers basically pushed him to it ffs. no junkie deserves to be kicked to death.

hooradiation

El Weirdo wrote: »

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a lenient sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a hefty sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Can't win, can they?

It's almost like the hooting shitflingers of AH should never, ever be listened to.

Andy-Pandy

omahaid wrote: »

There's so many inconsistent sentences from the Irish judiciary I really have little faith. Do you really think a murder conviction is right in this case? It really strikes me as a manslaughter act.

I do.

If his death had resulted from one punch, or he had slipped and hit his head I would have no problem in a manslaughter conviction, because it would have been accidental. But the article says that he kicked him multiple times in his head, neck and back, i can only presume that the victim was on the ground at this stage and not defending himself.

Bradidup

Being Chinese did not help with the verdict. Most of these guys are experts at Karate, kick boxing and that kind of stuff.

unkel

scumbags who kick innocent teacher to death out of the blue -> manslaughter

shopowner who kicks scumbag, who hit him first, to death -> murder

Does not compute...

gurramok

Remmy wrote: »

He kicked him in the head multiple times when he was on the ground. For murder you need to have the intent to kill or cause serious injury (Check), and the actus rea of that actually occuring (Check).

It didn't say in the article how many times he was kicked in the head. Could of been once, we don't know. In other cases people have been punched in the head without their head been knocked on the ground and died, yet the attackers have got manslaughter and hardly any jailtime.

eyeball kid

El Weirdo wrote: »

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a lenient sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Someone commits a scummy act and gets a hefty sentence - After Hours moans about the Irish justice system.

Can't win, can they?

I know not every case is the same but a bit of consistency would be nice.

not yet

Nice guy by all accounts, still he's looking at 15 years in the big house.

Lollipops23

Much as I think he deserves to get sent down, I have some small sympathy for the guy- he would have taken all manner of (probably racist) abuse and threats from the dregs of society over a long period of time.

I mean, killing someone over 70c is just insane, but why would someone go to the hassle of arguing over 70c in the first place? It's a scummy thing to do to try and dupe someone out of their living.

He still didn't deserve the horrifically violent death her got though.

Remmy

gurramok wrote: »

It didn't say in the article how many times he was kicked in the head. Could of been once, we don't know. In other cases people have been punched in the head without their head been knocked on the ground and died, yet the attackers have got manslaughter and hardly any jailtime.

It said he was kicked a number of times in the back, head and back. Your right though it doesn't explicitly say how many times he was kicked in the head, that was my mistake.

omahaid

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I do.

If his death had resulted from one punch, or he had slipped and hit his head I would have no problem in a manslaughter conviction, because it would have been accidental. But the article says that he kicked him multiple times in his head, neck and back, i can only presume that the victim was on the ground at this stage and not defending himself.

Heres another manslaughter case

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

"The jury were told Gerard McNamara knocked his father to the ground and started kicking him and hitting him with “anything he could get his hands on” including items of furniture and a full beer can."

And another one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/manslaughter-verdict-for-frenzied-stabbing-attack-327513.html

"Mr Moore died after being stabbed 39 times on the balcony of his flat. During the trial, the court had heard that stab wounds had been "sliced across the neck". Other wounds had cut through his heart and punctured his lungs."

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

Hick1sfm

That guy went in there fully knowing he had no money. I dont blame the owner for his reaction. He just went too far. The more people to stand up to scumbags the better. Once again its unfortunate he died. And no it's not murder. Manslaughter at most. Sentence was too severe.

Run_to_da_hills

unkel wrote: »

scumbags who kick innocent teacher to death out of the blue -> manslaughter

shopowner who kicks scumbag, who hit him first, to death -> murder

Does not compute...

In that Ennis teacher case both the culprits were well known to the Gardai and had a string of previous convictions, no doubt these scumbags will be terrorizing the town again once they are early released in a year or two.

The Chinese guy had no previous record of scumbaggery.

Paz-CCFC

omahaid wrote: »

Heres another manslaughter case

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

"The jury were told Gerard McNamara knocked his father to the ground and started kicking him and hitting him with “anything he could get his hands on” including items of furniture and a full beer can."

And another one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/manslaughter-verdict-for-frenzied-stabbing-attack-327513.html

"Mr Moore died after being stabbed 39 times on the balcony of his flat. During the trial, the court had heard that stab wounds had been "sliced across the neck". Other wounds had cut through his heart and punctured his lungs."

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

If a jury of 12 impartial members of society who have been presented with a long list of facts and testimonies, amounting to a lot more than an article in the Irish Independent, are of the opinion that a certain verdict should be delivered, then I'm willing to accept their decision.

Death and Taxes

Hick1sfm wrote: »

That guy went in there fully knowing he had no money. I dont blame the owner for his reaction. He just went too far. The more people to stand up to scumbags the better. Once again its unfortunate he died. And no it's not murder. Manslaughter at most. Sentence was too severe.

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

Hick1sfm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

Leftist

unkel wrote: »

An aggressive, lying customer hit the shop owner, refused to pay and did a runner. The shop owner went after him and kicked him repeatedly. The "customer" unfortunately died

Surely this is only manslaughter at the very most?

Linky

if he was white and he attacked a woman he probably would have got a small fine.

Death and Taxes

Hick1sfm wrote: »

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

I do know the definition , as did the jury who were instructed on the law by the Judge.
So does the DPP.
You obviously however have no grasp of what is murder according to the law.
He was not, nor never claimed to be protecting his business, he followed a man outside and kicked him to death while he lay on the ground.

Grudaire

Hick1sfm wrote: »

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

If he keeps getting stung by people not paying him I really don't understand why he doesn't work some sort of pre-pay system!?

It may not be popular, but it's better than attacking somone over 70c!

splendid101

I feel sorry for both the victim and the convicted in this case.

I'd say the shop worker was constantly dealing with harassment from junkies and thieves. This guy pushed him over the edge and now he will pay for it for the rest of his life.

He deserves to be punished and imprisoned for it.

The inconsistencies in our judicial system are quite shocking and It'd like to see some progress on this matter.

Hick1sfm

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I do know the definition , as did the jury who were instructed on the law by the Judge.
So does the DPP.
You obviously however have no grasp of what is murder according to the law.
He was not, nor never claimed to be protecting his business, he followed a man outside and kicked him to death while he lay on the ground.

Ya he was a scumbag, a methhead scum bag. Thought he would wander into another place and get yet another freebie. Probly wasnt the first time. deserved a good kicking. But as I said not to that extent.

Hick1sfm

Cliste wrote: »

If he keeps getting stung by people not paying him I really don't understand why he doesn't work some sort of pre-pay system!?

It may not be popular, but it's better than attacking somone over 70c!

Its not really the price is the issue. Its peoples lack of respect. If you own a business you dont want the likes of that individulal pissing all over it.

humanji

omahaid wrote: »

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

The fact that the shopkeeper chased the victim down and then attacked him would make a huge difference, I'd say. If it had happened in the shop, then he'd have a greater case for manslaughter.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

The victim refused to pay for the services he used and then hit the shopkeeper. If the story ended there, I'd call him a scumbag. His death shouldn't cancel out his previous actions. Although:

Hick1sfm wrote:

Ya he was a scumbag, a methhead scum bag. Thought he would wander into another place and get yet another freebie. Probly wasnt the first time. deserved a good kicking. But as I said not to that extent.

That is just trolling. So Hick1sfm, stick to the facts and cut out the abuse.

The_Kew_Tour

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

gurramok

humanji wrote: »

The fact that the shopkeeper chased the victim down and then attacked him would make a huge difference, I'd say. If it had happened in the shop, then he'd have a greater case for manslaughter.
.

Parallels with the Padraig McNally case?

Run_to_da_hills

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

70c would be a days wages in China.

Leftist

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

not really. he was assaulted and lashed out. He obviously had problems with junkies taking the mick judging too where his business is located.

Wrong verdict. If he was white and had some addiction he probably would have got 4 years suspended.

frankosw

I really feel for thehopkeeper.
A man from China is over here trying to make somethinng of his life by opening a business and working hard.

Drunks and drug addicts are coming into his shop and refusing to pay because they think it is thier right not to have to pay.

Scumbag pulls the "i didnt get through i'm not paying" trick despite evidence to the contrary and assaults the shop owner..the owner follows him outside to try and get his money,his wage from the troublemaker and ends up killing him in the heat of the moment due to drugs the other bloke was taking.

This wasnt murder through any stretch of themagination..murder implies an intent to destroy life,this man was merely defending himself and his business...he had previously encountered trouble from drunks and drug users who had left without paying.

The entire city centre is like this,they roam around olivious to other people's rights and to the Law.

The steal where they like and assault shopkeepers and security staff when challanged..they deal drugs in busy shopping and tourist areas,they drink and smoke on buses and ordinary people are afraid of them.

This man no doubt had to suffer daily as a result of feral lowlifes using his premises and failing to pay..he had every right o become annoyed and every right to defend his business..if more people made a stand against scumbags they might think twice about thier behaviour twoards others.

He should never have been charged with,much less convicted of murder..the law is an ass.

The_Kew_Tour

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

70c would be a days wages in China.

and? This was in Ireland. Not China.

Leftist wrote: »

not really. he was assaulted and lashed out. He obviously had problems with junkies taking the mick judging too where his business is located.

Wrong verdict. If he was white and had some addiction he probably would have got 4 years suspended.

He had a right to fight back. But to keep kicking a man when he is down in the ground is murder. All over 70c.

Reloc8

frankosw wrote: »

This wasnt murder through any stretch of themagination..murder implies an intent to destroy life,this man was merely defending himself and his business...he had previously encountered trouble from drunks and drug users who had left without paying...
He should never have been charged with,much less convicted of murder..the law is an ass.

Its almost funny reading posts which assert so strongly that this could not have been a murder. Presumably based on whatever you read in the papers, your own inherent bias etc. etc.

A jury of 12 people in court heard every single piece of admissible evidence in the case. They went away, thought about it long and hard, and came back and convicted him. Because he kicked a person to death unnecessarily and without any proper basis for doing so.

What is the problem ?