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Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

1356

Comments

  • #62
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Leftist wrote: »
    He kicked him a couple of times in the head and the man died.

    I got kicked in the head about 20 times by about 3 knackers once and here am I grand as a fiddle and ner a soul in lockdown because of it.

    Ergo...what exactly ? All people who kick others in the head should be at liberty ?

    What part of the bit in bold screams innocent to you ?


  • #63
    dd972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,563 ✭✭✭dd972


    Cultural differences probably have a part to play here, the Chinese wouldn't have any truck with the sort of pissed up and drugged up tracksuited scumminess you see walking around town on a regular basis, I once saw a Chinese guy floor a junkie outside a convenience store in Phibsboro.


  • #64
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    frankosw wrote: »
    He was struck by the customer..he was protecting himself from further assault.

    Self defense has to be proportionate and reasonable. Kicking an unconscious man in the head while he's collapsed on the ground is neither of those things.


  • #65
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    frankosw wrote: »
    He was struck by the customer..he was protecting himself from further assault.
    He was hit by the customer who then left the shop. The shopkeeper then followed him and beat him to death.

    There is your difference between murder and manslaughter.


  • #66
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    Pompey Magnus wrote: »
    No he wasn't, the man was on the street outside his business when he was attacked, what further threat was he to the establishment? .

    He could have picked up an object and smashed teh windows for a start..he may have been armed and he might have visited further harm on the shopkeeer..he initiated a conflict and he lost due to the shopkeeper losing control.

    The shopkeeper lost control because he was being scammed repeatedly by people of the victim's ilk and this was damaging his business...maybe there was an overeaction but it was not a murder in that there was no intent to end the man's life.


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  • #67
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,038 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    frankosw wrote: »
    You have the right to use reasonable force in defending yourself and a decent solicitor could have argued that the chinese man was fearful of letting the bloke get up in case he was assaulted again.

    The junkie threw the first punch therefore he initiated the conflict,the fact that it escalated to the extent that he died is completely his own fault.

    He had a right to defend himself of course. But The former drug addict walked out of premises and it was then that the owner/accused attacked him. No danger of life there do you think?
    Leftist wrote: »
    it wasn't all over 70c. He was cheated and hit. sensationalist garbage about a cold hearted ninja kicking a true blue dub to death mercilessly while he lay in the strasse isn't going to cut mustard with mise.

    He kicked him a couple of times in the head and the man died.

    I got kicked in the head about 20 times by about 3 knackers once and here am I grand as a fiddle and ner a soul in lockdown because of it.

    What does it matter that one is from Foreign Country and one is from Dublin. That should not matter one bit.

    I am very sorry to hear about your attack. I hope those who did it have there day. My friend was attacked years ago.

    But that is my point. I mean reading it again the man was going to pay up to 40c of the charge. I know it must have been frustrating for the Owner and I understand him being annoyed and wanting to smack the man. But he went too far. All over possibly 30c.

    Was a sentence really worth that? I doubt it now.

    EVENFLOW



  • #68
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    frankosw wrote: »
    He could have picked up an object and smashed teh windows for a start..he may have been armed and he might have visited further harm on the shopkeeer..he initiated a conflict and he lost due to the shopkeeper losing control.

    The shopkeeper lost control because he was being scammed repeatedly by people of the victim's ilk and this was damaging his business...maybe there was an overeaction but it was not a murder in that there was no intent to end the man's life.


    Its just ****ing ridiculous that people who didn't sit a day in court to hear the evidence in this case think their opinion is likely to be superior to the conclusion of 12 people who listened carefully to every word said and then went away collectively and came to a unanimous decision, having spent 10 hours over 3 days considering their verdict.


  • #69
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Self defense has to be proportionate and reasonable. Kicking an unconscious man in the head while he's collapsed on the ground is neither of those things.

    A man who has just assaulted you and attempted to steal from you...the fact that he died was an unfortunate result of his medication and not the beating.


  • #70
    unkel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 61,092 ✭✭✭✭unkel


    gurramok wrote: »
    Parallels with the Padraig McNally case?

    Yes indeed.

    Padraig McNally set out to finish off (he said so himself) his already badly wounded victim -> manslaughter

    Shopkeeper set out to stop and harm his victim (by no means to finish him off) -> murder

    Again, does not compute...

    "Make no mistake. The days of the internal combustion engine are definitely numbered" - Quentin Willson, 1997



  • #71
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    frankosw wrote: »
    A man who has just assaulted you and attempted to steal from you...the fact that he died was an unfortunate result of his medication and not the beating.

    He had torn arteries in his neck and bleeding on the brain. His medication didn't cause that.


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  • #72
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    If he was Irish he would have gotten a suspended sentence or convicted of manslaughter. He isn't Irish so he gets life for murder.

    Great country we live in.


  • #73
    frankosw
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 809 ✭✭✭frankosw


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Its just ****ing ridiculous that people who didn't sit a day in court to hear the evidence in this case think their opinion is likely to be superior to the conclusion of 12 people who listened carefully to every word said and then went away collectively and came to a unanimous decision, having spent 10 hours over 3 days considering their verdict.

    And you'll find that there are thousands of such people reading the news today who will find an issue of extreme provocation as a mitigating factor in this case.

    I do hope the case is overturned on appeal.


  • #74
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,038 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    If he was Irish he would have gotten a suspended sentence or convicted of manslaughter. He isn't Irish so he gets life for murder.

    Great country we live in.

    So its OK to leave a guy who murdered somebody to walk the street soon again.

    Well done.

    EVENFLOW



  • #75
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    That said, it could well be said that the law of this country requires amendment to reflect different categories of homicide with judicial discretion on sentencing for some. Here's some links to reports by the law reform commission which deals with this in detail. Of course, they areimpeccably researched and set out all relevant facts on which intelligent opinions can be based so it may not be to the majority of posters likes but still :-


    www.lawreform.ie/2007/consultation-paper-on-involuntary-manslaughter.216.html

    http://www.lawreform.ie/archives/consultation-paper-on-homicide-the-plea-of-provocation.303.html

    www.lawreform.ie/archives/consultation-paper-on-homicide-the-mental-element-in-murder.301.html

    http://www.lawreform.ie/2008/290108-report-on-homocide-murder-and-involuntary-manslaughter.180.html

    Reports are linked at the bottom of each page. Have the reccommendations been implemented by our esteemed political overlords ?

    Have they ****.


  • #76
    Party Supply Van
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Party Supply Van


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    If he was Irish he would have gotten a suspended sentence or convicted of manslaughter. He isn't Irish so he gets life for murder.

    Great country we live in.

    Utter fcuking bolocks :rolleyes:


  • #77
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    So its OK to leave a guy who murdered somebody to walk the street soon again.

    Well done.
    Where did i say that?
    Party Supply Van wrote: »
    Utter fcuking bolocks :rolleyes:

    Explain.


  • #78
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,626 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    If he was Irish he would have gotten a suspended sentence or convicted of manslaughter. He isn't Irish so he gets life for murder.

    Great country we live in.

    That's a pretty serious claim to make tbh.. considering there will likely be an appeal.


  • #79
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    unkel wrote: »
    Yes indeed.

    Padraig McNally set out to finish off (he said so himself) his already badly wounded victim -> manslaughter

    Shopkeeper set out to stop and harm his victim (by no means to finish him off) -> murder

    Again, does not compute...

    So the McNally case and this case are identical in every single detail, are they? Or is it possible that they're different cases that we aren't privy to the full details, but which the courts were?


  • #80
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    Where did i say that?



    Explain.

    You seem to presume without foundation that the jury was influenced by the nationality of the accused.

    Hence, bollocks.


  • #81
    Leftist
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,230 ✭✭✭Leftist


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    Ergo...what exactly ? All people who kick others in the head should be at liberty ?

    What part of the bit in bold screams innocent to you ?

    never said innocent... but not guilty of murder.

    a life sentence for this man who fought back against a junkie..

    vs.

    couple of k fine for a man who beats and rapes a woman.

    yeah, it's about consistancy.


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  • #82
    humanji
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Leftist wrote: »
    never said innocent... but not guilty of murder.

    a life sentence for this man who fought back against a junkie..

    vs.

    couple of k fine for a man who beats and rapes a woman.

    yeah, it's about consistancy.
    You seem to be reading a different article. There's no junkies in the OP's article.


  • #83
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,038 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    If he was Irish he would have gotten a suspended sentence or convicted of manslaughter. He isn't Irish so he gets life for murder.

    Great country we live in.
    Super-Rush wrote: »
    Where did i say that?

    You stated that you have problem with somebody getting life sentence for murder but other don't.

    I think it be nice to see all murders get life myself. Hopefully this will be case from now on. Wont hold my breath.

    EVENFLOW



  • #84
    Reloc8
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Reloc8


    Leftist wrote: »
    never said innocent... but not guilty of murder.

    a life sentence for this man who fought back against a junkie..

    Jury verdict of murder means automatic life sentence. No judicial discretion. See my previous post for what the Law Reform Commission (clever clogs that they are) think of that and the need for grades of homicide offences to reflect the realities of these kind of (tragic) cases.
    Leftist wrote: »
    vs.

    couple of k fine for a man who beats and rapes a woman.

    yeah, it's about consistancy.

    Havn't seen the case you're talking about, but this has nothing to do with a jury.

    A judge passes sentence. If it is too low the DPP can appeal it, as frequently happens.


  • #85
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    humanji wrote: »
    So the McNally case and this case are identical in every single detail, are they? Or is it possible that they're different cases that we aren't privy to the full details, but which the courts were?

    Who the **** is Padraig McNally?


  • #86
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    Reloc8 wrote: »
    You seem to presume without foundation that the jury was influenced by the nationality of the accused.

    Hence, bollocks.

    An Irish man kicks his father to death and get six years.

    A Chinese man kicks a man to death and gets life.

    Calling it like i see it.

    Also i think the man in this case deserved the life sentence.


  • #87
    Party Supply Van
    Closed Accounts Posts: 67 ✭✭Party Supply Van


    Super-Rush wrote: »



    Explain.

    Explain? You are the one who made the unfounded statement implying that the jury were in some way racially motivated. You explain


  • #88
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    You stated that you have problem with somebody getting life sentence for murder but other don't.

    I think it be nice to see all murders get life myself. Hopefully this will be case from now on. Wont hold my breath.

    Of course i have a problem with someone getting life for murder when others don't.

    So do you.

    Whats your point?


  • #89
    Super-Rush
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,473 ✭✭✭✭Super-Rush


    Party Supply Van wrote: »
    Explain? You are the one who made the unfounded statement implying that the jury were in some way racially motivated. You explain

    I explained in the post above yours.


  • #90
    El Weirdo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,651 ✭✭✭✭El Weirdo


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    Of course i have a problem with someone getting life for murder when others don't.

    So do you.

    Whats your point?
    But a life sentence is mandatory for murder in this country. Have you a link to this case you speak of, S-R?


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  • #91
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 36,038 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Super-Rush wrote: »
    Of course i have a problem with someone getting life for murder when others don't.

    So do you.

    Whats your point?

    My point is it should not matter about Nationality and in plenty of cases there is proof that it does not matter(and should never matter)

    You do the crime and you should do the time

    EVENFLOW



This discussion has been closed.
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