Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

omahaid · 06-12-2012 12:42PM

Andy-Pandy wrote: »

I do.

If his death had resulted from one punch, or he had slipped and hit his head I would have no problem in a manslaughter conviction, because it would have been accidental. But the article says that he kicked him multiple times in his head, neck and back, i can only presume that the victim was on the ground at this stage and not defending himself.

Heres another manslaughter case

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

"The jury were told Gerard McNamara knocked his father to the ground and started kicking him and hitting him with “anything he could get his hands on” including items of furniture and a full beer can."

And another one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/manslaughter-verdict-for-frenzied-stabbing-attack-327513.html

"Mr Moore died after being stabbed 39 times on the balcony of his flat. During the trial, the court had heard that stab wounds had been "sliced across the neck". Other wounds had cut through his heart and punctured his lungs."

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

Hick1sfm · 06-12-2012 12:48PM

That guy went in there fully knowing he had no money. I dont blame the owner for his reaction. He just went too far. The more people to stand up to scumbags the better. Once again its unfortunate he died. And no it's not murder. Manslaughter at most. Sentence was too severe.

Run_to_da_hills · 06-12-2012 12:49PM

unkel wrote: »

scumbags who kick innocent teacher to death out of the blue -> manslaughter

shopowner who kicks scumbag, who hit him first, to death -> murder

Does not compute...

In that Ennis teacher case both the culprits were well known to the Gardai and had a string of previous convictions, no doubt these scumbags will be terrorizing the town again once they are early released in a year or two.

The Chinese guy had no previous record of scumbaggery.

Paz-CCFC · 06-12-2012 12:52PM

omahaid wrote: »

Heres another manslaughter case

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/courts/man-gets-six-years-in-jail-for-killing-dad-in-drunken-row-3178676.html

"The jury were told Gerard McNamara knocked his father to the ground and started kicking him and hitting him with “anything he could get his hands on” including items of furniture and a full beer can."

And another one

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/manslaughter-verdict-for-frenzied-stabbing-attack-327513.html

"Mr Moore died after being stabbed 39 times on the balcony of his flat. During the trial, the court had heard that stab wounds had been "sliced across the neck". Other wounds had cut through his heart and punctured his lungs."

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

If a jury of 12 impartial members of society who have been presented with a long list of facts and testimonies, amounting to a lot more than an article in the Irish Independent, are of the opinion that a certain verdict should be delivered, then I'm willing to accept their decision.

Death and Taxes · 06-12-2012 12:54PM

Hick1sfm wrote: »

That guy went in there fully knowing he had no money. I dont blame the owner for his reaction. He just went too far. The more people to stand up to scumbags the better. Once again its unfortunate he died. And no it's not murder. Manslaughter at most. Sentence was too severe.

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

Hick1sfm · 06-12-2012 12:57PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

Leftist · 06-12-2012 12:57PM

unkel wrote: »

An aggressive, lying customer hit the shop owner, refused to pay and did a runner. The shop owner went after him and kicked him repeatedly. The "customer" unfortunately died

Surely this is only manslaughter at the very most?

Linky

if he was white and he attacked a woman he probably would have got a small fine.

Death and Taxes · 06-12-2012 12:59PM

Hick1sfm wrote: »

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

I do know the definition , as did the jury who were instructed on the law by the Judge.
So does the DPP.
You obviously however have no grasp of what is murder according to the law.
He was not, nor never claimed to be protecting his business, he followed a man outside and kicked him to death while he lay on the ground.

Grudaire · 06-12-2012 01:00PM

Hick1sfm wrote: »

Do you even know the definition of murder? I suggest looking it up. He was only protecting his business. He didnt wake up and say "I feel like killing somebody today"

If he keeps getting stung by people not paying him I really don't understand why he doesn't work some sort of pre-pay system!?

It may not be popular, but it's better than attacking somone over 70c!

splendid101 · 06-12-2012 01:08PM

I feel sorry for both the victim and the convicted in this case.

I'd say the shop worker was constantly dealing with harassment from junkies and thieves. This guy pushed him over the edge and now he will pay for it for the rest of his life.

He deserves to be punished and imprisoned for it.

The inconsistencies in our judicial system are quite shocking and It'd like to see some progress on this matter.

Hick1sfm · 06-12-2012 01:09PM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

I do know the definition , as did the jury who were instructed on the law by the Judge.
So does the DPP.
You obviously however have no grasp of what is murder according to the law.
He was not, nor never claimed to be protecting his business, he followed a man outside and kicked him to death while he lay on the ground.

Ya he was a scumbag, a methhead scum bag. Thought he would wander into another place and get yet another freebie. Probly wasnt the first time. deserved a good kicking. But as I said not to that extent.

Hick1sfm · 06-12-2012 01:11PM

Cliste wrote: »

If he keeps getting stung by people not paying him I really don't understand why he doesn't work some sort of pre-pay system!?

It may not be popular, but it's better than attacking somone over 70c!

Its not really the price is the issue. Its peoples lack of respect. If you own a business you dont want the likes of that individulal pissing all over it.

humanji · 06-12-2012 01:11PM

omahaid wrote: »

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

The fact that the shopkeeper chased the victim down and then attacked him would make a huge difference, I'd say. If it had happened in the shop, then he'd have a greater case for manslaughter.

WileyCoyote wrote: »

He committed murder, and I really detest the way certain posters continue to refer to the victim as a "scumbag" without any evidence to back it up.

The victim refused to pay for the services he used and then hit the shopkeeper. If the story ended there, I'd call him a scumbag. His death shouldn't cancel out his previous actions. Although:

Hick1sfm wrote:

Ya he was a scumbag, a methhead scum bag. Thought he would wander into another place and get yet another freebie. Probly wasnt the first time. deserved a good kicking. But as I said not to that extent.

That is just trolling. So Hick1sfm, stick to the facts and cut out the abuse.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-12-2012 01:13PM

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

gurramok · 06-12-2012 01:14PM

humanji wrote: »

The fact that the shopkeeper chased the victim down and then attacked him would make a huge difference, I'd say. If it had happened in the shop, then he'd have a greater case for manslaughter.
.

Parallels with the Padraig McNally case?

Run_to_da_hills · 06-12-2012 01:15PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

70c would be a days wages in China.

Leftist · 06-12-2012 01:16PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

Dont feel sorry for somebody murdering a human being for 70c. That is murder simple as that.

not really. he was assaulted and lashed out. He obviously had problems with junkies taking the mick judging too where his business is located.

Wrong verdict. If he was white and had some addiction he probably would have got 4 years suspended.

frankosw · 06-12-2012 01:17PM

I really feel for thehopkeeper.
A man from China is over here trying to make somethinng of his life by opening a business and working hard.

Drunks and drug addicts are coming into his shop and refusing to pay because they think it is thier right not to have to pay.

Scumbag pulls the "i didnt get through i'm not paying" trick despite evidence to the contrary and assaults the shop owner..the owner follows him outside to try and get his money,his wage from the troublemaker and ends up killing him in the heat of the moment due to drugs the other bloke was taking.

This wasnt murder through any stretch of themagination..murder implies an intent to destroy life,this man was merely defending himself and his business...he had previously encountered trouble from drunks and drug users who had left without paying.

The entire city centre is like this,they roam around olivious to other people's rights and to the Law.

The steal where they like and assault shopkeepers and security staff when challanged..they deal drugs in busy shopping and tourist areas,they drink and smoke on buses and ordinary people are afraid of them.

This man no doubt had to suffer daily as a result of feral lowlifes using his premises and failing to pay..he had every right o become annoyed and every right to defend his business..if more people made a stand against scumbags they might think twice about thier behaviour twoards others.

He should never have been charged with,much less convicted of murder..the law is an ass.

The_Kew_Tour · 06-12-2012 01:18PM

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

70c would be a days wages in China.

and? This was in Ireland. Not China.

Leftist wrote: »

not really. he was assaulted and lashed out. He obviously had problems with junkies taking the mick judging too where his business is located.

Wrong verdict. If he was white and had some addiction he probably would have got 4 years suspended.

He had a right to fight back. But to keep kicking a man when he is down in the ground is murder. All over 70c.

Reloc8 · 06-12-2012 01:19PM

frankosw wrote: »

This wasnt murder through any stretch of themagination..murder implies an intent to destroy life,this man was merely defending himself and his business...he had previously encountered trouble from drunks and drug users who had left without paying...
He should never have been charged with,much less convicted of murder..the law is an ass.

Its almost funny reading posts which assert so strongly that this could not have been a murder. Presumably based on whatever you read in the papers, your own inherent bias etc. etc.

A jury of 12 people in court heard every single piece of admissible evidence in the case. They went away, thought about it long and hard, and came back and convicted him. Because he kicked a person to death unnecessarily and without any proper basis for doing so.

What is the problem ?

Pompey Magnus · 06-12-2012 01:21PM

frankosw wrote: »

This wasnt murder through any stretch of themagination..murder implies an intent to destroy life,this man was merely defending himself and his business.

No he wasn't, the man was on the street outside his business when he was attacked, what further threat was he to the establishment? The shopkeeper was seeking revenge for being done out of between 30 - 60 cent, pure and simple.

Custardpi · 06-12-2012 01:21PM

Presumably he'll be able to appeal the murder conviction, won't he? Would be interesting to see the results of that.

Reloc8 · 06-12-2012 01:21PM

omahaid wrote: »

And on and on and on. This is what gets me, why are the three case I've found in a 20 second google search manslaughters and this one is murder?

Because a jury said so after a trial. Unfortunately, AH, you can't blame the police, the judge, the lawyers or any of the usual suspects for your rants about the criminal justice system. This comes down to 12 people fulfilling an oath they swear to deliver a verdict. Which is as it should be.

omahaid · 06-12-2012 01:22PM

Reloc8 wrote: »

What is the problem ?

The problem is consistency, I don't think this conviction is consistent with many many other deaths. Have a look at the link about the teacher in Ennis and tell me that the convictions are consistent. They don't seem consistent to me.

El Weirdo · 06-12-2012 01:22PM

frankosw wrote: »

... the owner follows him outside to try and get his money,his wage from the troublemaker and ends up killing him in the heat of the moment due to drugs the other bloke was taking...

Not according to the shopkeeper himself:

Zhao had told detectives that he had had trouble with customers not paying in the past, but that this was not about the money.
"It was about him (Mr Fegan) hitting me and his attitude," he said in a garda interview.

Puts a slightly different slant on it.

frankosw · 06-12-2012 01:23PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

But to keep kicking a man when he is down in the ground is murder.

You have the right to use reasonable force in defending yourself and a decent solicitor could have argued that the chinese man was fearful of letting the bloke get up in case he was assaulted again.

The junkie threw the first punch therefore he initiated the conflict,the fact that it escalated to the extent that he died is completely his own fault.

Leftist · 06-12-2012 01:24PM

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

and? This was in Ireland. Not China.

He had a right to fight back. But to keep kicking a man when he is down in the ground is murder. All over 70c.

it wasn't all over 70c. He was cheated and hit. sensationalist garbage about a cold hearted ninja kicking a true blue dub to death mercilessly while he lay in the strasse isn't going to cut mustard with mise.

He kicked him a couple of times in the head and the man died.

I got kicked in the head about 20 times by about 3 knackers once and here am I grand as a fiddle and ner a soul in lockdown because of it.

Reloc8 · 06-12-2012 01:24PM

omahaid wrote: »

The problem is consistency, I don't think this conviction is consistent with many many other deaths. Have a look at the link about the teacher in Ennis and tell me that the convictions are consistent. They don't seem consistent to me.

Different cases, different evidence etc. You can't judge a verdict of a jury by what is reported in the papers.

12 people, listen to the evidence, decide on guilt or innocence.

A convicted person in this country can have very little complaint about the process, in the absence of a mistake in law by the trial judge, hence the availability of an appeal

Pompey Magnus · 06-12-2012 01:25PM

frankosw wrote: »

The junkie threw the first punch therefore he initiated the conflict,the fact that it escalated to the extent that he died is completely his own fault.

Stop referring to him as a junkie, he had been a drug addict but since reformed and was clean when he was murdered.

frankosw · 06-12-2012 01:25PM

El Weirdo wrote: »

Not according to the shopkeeper himself:

Puts a slightly different slant on it.

He was struck by the customer..he was protecting himself from further assault.

Shopowner kicks dead aggressive customer - get's life for murder?

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