Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

Biggins · 05-12-2012 01:52AM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Endemic cronyism in Irish society. Is anyone honestly surprised?

Not in the slightest.
As for some of the possible culprits - they may be aboput to be exposed/named in the Dail.
Its a matter I have been aware of and wrote about elsewhere.

It seems Clare Daly might just be about to name names - if she is not blocked!

Pat Mustard · 05-12-2012 02:15AM

Biggins wrote: »

It seems Clare Daly might just be about to name names - if she is not blocked!

And Mick Wallace, according to your blog. He doesn't exactly hold the moral high ground these days.

MagicSean · 05-12-2012 02:21AM

Biggins wrote: »

Not in the slightest.
As for some of the possible culprits - they may be aboput to be exposed/named in the Dail.
Its a matter I have been aware of and wrote about elsewhere.

It seems Clare Daly might just be about to name names - if she is not blocked!

I hope for her sake she looks into each case first. It could seriously backfire if it was cancelled for a genuine reason.

Death and Taxes · 05-12-2012 08:10AM

MagicSean wrote: »

I hope for her sake she looks into each case first. It could seriously backfire if it was cancelled for a genuine reason.

Watching and listening to James McDermott SC last night on Prime Time, and listening to other legal experts it appears that NOWHERE in the Road Traffic Acts are the Garda Siochana at any rank given the power to terminate a fixed penalty, it is a wholly illegal system that the Garda authorities have set up themselves, consequently there can never legally be a genuine reason for AGS to cancel/terminate penalty points.
The correct lawful procedure for a person who believes the circumstances required them to speed is to challenge the penalty points in open court.
If that is the legal position, and I have no reason to doubt it, the AGS authorities have illegally cancelled all of these points and cost the state millions in lost revenue.
I would be very intertested if anyone can tell me which section/s of the various Road Traffic Acts allow any member of AGS, regardless of rank, to exercise the quasi-judicial function of cancelling/terminating fixed penalty points and fines.

TheDoc · 05-12-2012 09:22AM

I have to lol at the outrage this has caused and how its such a big newspread.

While obviously it shouldn't happen, and it is going to bring heat on the police.

Are people only aware of this now?

A) This has been going on since points were introduced

It is not exclusive to "being powerful or a celebrity". In low density/rural areas around the country, its the norm. Someone might pickup some points on the drive home from Dublin from work. They have a chat with the local guarda, who most likely drinks in the same local pub, a few days and phonecalls later and points are gone.

People are aware of this yes?

It is not the upper echelons or citizen or police that can do this, literally any Guard can make a phonecall and get points wiped.

Was still a big story on alot of papers today and yesterday,

Biggins · 05-12-2012 10:13AM

The Mustard wrote: »

And Mick Wallace, according to your blog. He doesn't exactly hold the moral high ground these days.

Indeed not. Well it might take one possible ...what shall we say... 'unique' character to recognise others better?

Are people only aware of this now?

People are aware of this yes?

SOME might have known it was going on - that does certainly not make it ALL or a majority of people - unless someone can prove this?
...And 90,000 possible cases of it since 2004!

It is not the upper echelons or citizen or police that can do this, literally any Guard can make a phone-call and get points wiped.

Point of clarity: Any Garda can make a phone call and REQUEST that points be wiped but only from a certain level upwards in Garda management (Superintendent or Chief Superintendant I believe), can then by said higher persons, be points wiped. That person then supposedly has to have genuine justification to do so and enter it on record.

MagicSean · 05-12-2012 10:14AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Watching and listening to James McDermott SC last night on Prime Time, and listening to other legal experts it appears that NOWHERE in the Road Traffic Acts are the Garda Siochana at any rank given the power to terminate a fixed penalty, it is a wholly illegal system that the Garda authorities have set up themselves, consequently there can never legally be a genuine reason for AGS to cancel/terminate penalty points.
The correct lawful procedure for a person who believes the circumstances required them to speed is to challenge the penalty points in open court.
If that is the legal position, and I have no reason to doubt it, the AGS authorities have illegally cancelled all of these points and cost the state millions in lost revenue.
I would be very intertested if anyone can tell me which section/s of the various Road Traffic Acts allow any member of AGS, regardless of rank, to exercise the quasi-judicial function of cancelling/terminating fixed penalty points and fines.

A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution so it's got nothing to do with the courts. It only becomes a prosecution if a summons is issued for the offence. The decision to prosecute lies with the Garda.

Solair · 05-12-2012 10:29AM

and further down the Transparency International index we slide.

Sadly, Ireland has a totally toxic lack of understanding of what corruption is and how damaging it can be.

A see no evil, hear no evil attitude was always adopted when it involved the powerful, the influential or the rich.

In the earlier days, it was the church and religious organisations. Their running of various 'care' institutions, industrial schools and Magdaline laundries resulted in horrible abuses of citizens of this state, most of whom were the most vulnerable in society. However, the Government allowed them to influence policy and turned a complete blind eye to what was going on because they were powerful lobbyists. That is the text book definition of corruption!

Then we had all the planning corruption which has resulted in our inability to deliver infrastructure like roads, public transport, water, sewage and broadband to many housing developments as they are practically off-grid and it resulted in the toxic scenario that created the property crash where developers went crazy and local authorities did nothing about it.

We'd light-touch regulation of the banks and credit institutions and again, a see no evil / hear no evil / speak no evil attitude was adopted and those who could have done something about it opted to 'wear the green jersey' and sailed the country down the toilet! We have been left with a bill so large that our grandchildren's grandchildren will probably still be paying it off!

Ireland has to snap out of this culture of string pulling, back scratching and lack of transparency or we are on a road to no where other than more misery and more suffering!

A culture of total transparency in terms of decision making, governance and administration is absolutely essential if this country is going to move forward and we seem to be very far from that position at the moment.

The whole culture HAS to change.

We need whistle blower protection legislation, probably a complete shake up of libel / defamation laws to allow for much more probing journalism, the Freedom of Information Act needs to be reinvigorated and returned to the status it originally had before aspects of it were rolled back by previous Governments and probably a total change of how we do things at national and local Government level to remove power from the executive and place more power in the hands of the Dail / Council chambers.

It's like anything else, if you tolerate the small things, then all of a sudden you are mired with bigger problems as a whole culture develops.

pitythefool · 05-12-2012 10:56AM

Solair wrote: »

and further down the Transparency International index we slide.

Sadly, Ireland has a totally toxic lack of understanding of what corruption is and how damaging it can be.

A see no evil, hear no evil attitude was always adopted when it involved the powerful, the influential or the rich.

In the earlier days, it was the church and religious organisations. Their running of various 'care' institutions, industrial schools and Magdaline laundries resulted in horrible abuses of citizens of this state, most of whom were the most vulnerable in society. However, the Government allowed them to influence policy and turned a complete blind eye to what was going on because they were powerful lobbyists. That is the text book definition of corruption!

Then we had all the planning corruption which has resulted in our inability to deliver infrastructure like roads, public transport, water, sewage and broadband to many housing developments as they are practically off-grid and it resulted in the toxic scenario that created the property crash where developers went crazy and local authorities did nothing about it.

We'd light-touch regulation of the banks and credit institutions and again, a see no evil / hear no evil / speak no evil attitude was adopted and those who could have done something about it opted to 'wear the green jersey' and sailed the country down the toilet! We have been left with a bill so large that our grandchildren's grandchildren will probably still be paying it off!

Ireland has to snap out of this culture of string pulling, back scratching and lack of transparency or we are on a road to no where other than more misery and more suffering!

A culture of total transparency in terms of decision making, governance and administration is absolutely essential if this country is going to move forward and we seem to be very far from that position at the moment.

The whole culture HAS to change.

We need whistle blower protection legislation, probably a complete shake up of libel / defamation laws to allow for much more probing journalism, the Freedom of Information Act needs to be reinvigorated and returned to the status it originally had before aspects of it were rolled back by previous Governments and probably a total change of how we do things at national and local Government level to remove power from the executive and place more power in the hands of the Dail / Council chambers.

This corrption is still ongoing, especially the Church

Solair · 05-12-2012 10:59AM

pitythefool wrote: »

This corrption is still ongoing, especially the Church

It's got to be tackled though. That means dealing with the small issues, as well as the big ones. It's like a leak in your roof. If you don't look after it, it gets worse until eventually your whole house falls down and you're looking for loans from the IMF!

King of Kings · 05-12-2012 11:05AM

K-9 wrote: »

And if you get onto your TD enough he/she'll will help squash that disqualification on the license.

this is just horsehit
i'm not saying it has never happened but it doesn't happen on a regular scale.

an awful lot of people sounding like drunks in a bar complaining that the world is in a terrible state of chassis

people just making up "all gardai/TDs/Judges are corrupt ****s" off the top of their heads

Solair · 05-12-2012 11:07AM

The issue is that if we tolerate this kind of stuff, then it just undermines all the ordinary, decent, hard-working, totally ethical Gardaí, politicians, judges and RTE presenters who are by far the majority and wouldn't dream of doing such a thing.

If nothing's done, it suddenly becomes a "ah sure they're all the same" mantra which is just not true and is terribly bad for the whole country as people justifiably lose faith in the integrity of various institutions that they are supposed to be able to have full confidence in.

It's a small minority of chancers, and they need to be dealt with.

Corruption and string-pulling is always a problem, but the bigger problem is turning a blind eye to it and allowing the institutions themselves to be called into question.

The cost of freedom is eternal vigilance. That phrase or similar has been attributed to lots of notable political thinkers going right back to a famous Irish orator, John Philpot Curran in 1790 !

It's still absolutely relevant in 2012.

Death and Taxes · 05-12-2012 11:16AM

MagicSean wrote: »

A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution so it's got nothing to do with the courts. It only becomes a prosecution if a summons is issued for the offence. The decision to prosecute lies with the Garda.

Well thats not the legal position according to James McDermott, an eminent SC and leading acedemic, who stated the position, as I outlined, on Prime Time last night.
He says the Road Traffic Act is clear in that it states there are only two legal options once a fixed penalty notice is issued, pay the notice or make your case in open court, the Act does not allow for any other course. Like I say that is the position being argued by several lawyers who have commented on these allegations.
As I asked before can you, for the purpose of clarity, quote the part of the relavent Act that allows for the Gardai to exercise a quasi-judicial function and intervene after the fixed penalty has been issued?

Biggins · 05-12-2012 11:32AM

Solair wrote: »

...The whole culture HAS to change.

We need whistle blower protection legislation...

As long as there is political corruption still - and there is, then such people will also see to it that such legislation will be delayed as possible - if only for fear of exposures within their own party and/or of themselves!

Solair · 05-12-2012 11:45AM

A global index measuring perceptions of corruption in 176 countries gives Ireland its worst ever ranking and suggests that corruption is a bigger problem here than in some developing nations including Uruguay and the Bahamas. Ireland is now ranked in 25th place in the Corruption Perceptions Index conducted annually by Transparency International (TI). The worst performing countries are Afghanistan, North Korea and Somalia. Denmark, Finland and New Zealand are perceived to be the least corrupt countries of those surveyed.

http://transparency.ie/news_events/ireland-suffers-sharpest-drop-corruption-perceptions-index-its-history

http://transparency.ie/sites/default/files/CPI2012_mapAndCountryResults.pdf

For perspective:

1 Denmark
2 Finland
3 New Zealand
4 Sweden
5 Singapore
7 Australia
8 Norway
9 Canada & Netherlands
11 Iceland
12 Luxembourg
13 Germany
14 Hong Kong
15 Barbados
16 Belgium
17 Japan
18 United Kingdom
19 United States of America
20 Chile & Uruguay
22 Bahamas, France & Saint Lucia
25 Austria
26 Ireland
27 Quatar & UAE
29 Cyprus
30 Botswana & Spain
32 Estonia
33 Portugal, Puerto Rico & Bhutan

In terms of EU & Western Europe

We rank 14 out of 30 countries with Greece firmly at the bottom.

MagicSean · 05-12-2012 11:49AM

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Well thats not the legal position according to James McDermott, an eminent SC and leading acedemic, who stated the position, as I outlined, on Prime Time last night.
He says the Road Traffic Act is clear in that it states there are only two legal options once a fixed penalty notice is issued, pay the notice or make your case in open court, the Act does not allow for any other course. Like I say that is the position being argued by several lawyers who have commented on these allegations.
As I asked before can you, for the purpose of clarity, quote the part of the relavent Act that allows for the Gardai to exercise a quasi-judicial function and intervene after the fixed penalty has been issued?

Section 103 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 is clear in its meaning. A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution. It is not a court matter. It is an alternative to a prosecution. The legislation requires the Garda to issue the fixed charge penalty before initiating a prosecution.

Gardai have a common law power of discretion with regard to prosecutions for minor road traffic matters.

That is the only relevant law as far as I know. If you can indicate a law which requires the Garda to proceed with a prosecution for a minor road traffic matter then I'll check it out. If not and you accept that there is no requirement for the Garda to prosecute then you are merely arguing that a ticket should not be cancelled but allowed to expire instead.

runawaybishop · 05-12-2012 12:02PM

Solair wrote: »

http://transparency.ie/news_events/ireland-suffers-sharpest-drop-corruption-perceptions-index-its-history

http://transparency.ie/sites/default/files/CPI2012_mapAndCountryResults.pdf

For perspective:

1 Denmark
2 Finland
3 New Zealand
4 Sweden
5 Singapore
7 Australia
8 Norway
9 Canada & Netherlands
11 Iceland
12 Luxembourg
13 Germany
14 Hong Kong
15 Barbados
16 Belgium
17 Japan
18 United Kingdom
19 United States of America
20 Chile & Uruguay
22 Bahamas, France & Saint Lucia
25 Austria
26 Ireland
27 Quatar & UAE
29 Cyprus
30 Botswana & Spain
32 Estonia
33 Portugal, Puerto Rico & Bhutan

In terms of EU & Western Europe

We rank 14 out of 30 countries with Greece firmly at the bottom.

A global index measuring perceptions of corruption

^^ perception isn't fact though. Apart from that the report you linked only mentions political/business corruption, nothing to do with the police forces.

Solair · 05-12-2012 12:04PM

runawaybishop wrote: »

A global index measuring perceptions of corruption

^^ perception isn't fact though. Apart from that the report you linked only mentions political/business corruption, nothing to do with the police forces.

It's still relevant to a general culture though and the Transparency International reports generally get used as the bench mark and from any perspective, we're increasingly not looking very good.

Their methodology is here : http://transparency.ie/sites/default/files/Short%20Methodology%20Note%20-%20Corruption%20Perceptions%20Index%202012.doc albeit not very detailed..

From their FAQs wrote:

Does the CPI tell the full story of corruption in a country?
No. The CPI is limited in scope, capturing perceptions of the extent of corruption in the public sector, from the perspective of business people and country experts. Complementing this viewpoint and capturing different aspects of corruption, Transparency International produces a range of both qualitative and quantitative research on corruption, both at the global level from its Secretariat and at the national level through Transparency International’s network of National Chapters based in over 90 countries around the world. This body of research provides a comprehensive picture of the scale, spread and dynamics of corruption around the world. It also serves to mobilise and support evidence-based, effectively-tailored policy reform.

Perception of issues like this is what tends to create or destroy confidence.
If that's the perception that people have, and it seems to cover a general spread across the public sector and business, then we need to deal with the fact that our image is not as wonderful as we would like to think.

If we create a culture that allows whistle blowers some protection, and deals with stuff like this head-on, then we change that perception.

If we just go 'argha! sure we're grand' ... then we just make it worse.

If people PERCEIVE that there is a non-transparent system in operation with regard to penalty points or anything like that, then it just undermines the whole system.

bellson · 05-12-2012 12:13PM

Is Corrupt the right word for this, are Gardai lining their own pockets as a result or gaining in some other way personally?

Abuse of power maybe but if this is biggest scandal the ULA can uncover then were in a good place,

GSOC has been in place for years now, bar the odd hot headed garda commiting an assault or general rudeness by Gardai corruption on a wide scale has never been found,

A scandal in its lowest form this is

runawaybishop · 05-12-2012 12:16PM

Solair wrote: »

It's still relevant to a general culture though

I don't see how it is, even the part you quoted doesn't state it is in any way.

Does the CPI tell the full story of corruption in a country?
No. The CPI is limited in scope, capturing perceptions of the extent of corruption in the public sector, from the perspective of business people and country experts

Solair · 05-12-2012 12:27PM

The point is that it's quite clear that people are PERCEIVING these systems to be non-transparent and that is really very damaging to society.

That has to change if we are going to move forward.

What annoys people about this penalty point situation is that the message being sent out is that there's one set of rules for influential people and another set of rules for everyone else.

It's a very simple example of rule bending / string pulling.

Of course the Gardaí should have some level of discretion on things like traffic offenses and common sense, but it should be about the circumstances of the situation presented NOT who you are! Nobody's suggesting that a zero-tolerance / totally over the top approach is beneficial either.

There is an absolutely terrible message to send out by this kind of thing. It's even worse in a situation where many people feel really hard done by given that they are also now paying for banks' gambling errors and will be facing a horrible budget at 2:30pm today.

Society starts to break down when people start to perceive that things are unfair.

It's a whole pile of things - this scandal, politicians getting crazy unvouched expenses and unjustifiably high salaries / pensions etc, the banks being bailed out and continuing to pay people huge money, cuts to home help hours, tax hikes, seemingly randomly ultra harsh or ultra lenient inconsistent sentencing by the judiciary etc etc etc..

It all adds up to a sense of "us" and "them" and that's really not healthy.

runawaybishop · 05-12-2012 12:28PM

Solair wrote: »

The point is that it's quite clear that people are PERCEIVING these systems to be non-transparent and that is really very damaging to society.

I agree with this, idk why you just didn't say that at the start.

SEPT 23 1989 · 05-12-2012 12:30PM

Have the RSA commented on this yet?

Death and Taxes · 05-12-2012 12:31PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Section 103 of the Road Traffic Act 1961 is clear in its meaning. A fixed charge penalty is not a prosecution. It is not a court matter. It is an alternative to a prosecution. The legislation requires the Garda to issue the fixed charge penalty before initiating a prosecution.

Gardai have a common law power of discretion with regard to prosecutions for minor road traffic matters.

That is the only relevant law as far as I know. If you can indicate a law which requires the Garda to proceed with a prosecution for a minor road traffic matter then I'll check it out. If not and you accept that there is no requirement for the Garda to prosecute then you are merely arguing that a ticket should not be cancelled but allowed to expire instead.

Thanks for that Sean, as I said I am merely repeating what an eminent SC had to say on Prime Time and asking for clarification.
His point was that once the fixed penalty notice was issued the Gardai do not have any lawful authority to interfere with process laid down for fixed penalties as laid down in legislation that introduced this who penalty points system.
Obviously there is a lot of cunfusion around the issue as you explanation, the voracity of which I am not disputing, is clearly at odds with that of some senior lawyers who have been commenting on these allegations.

Biggins · 05-12-2012 12:32PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Have the RSA commented on this yet?

As its a government body(?), maybe they are deliberately saying nothing rather than injecting their feelings on the matter in case that might be perceived to be somewhat biting the hand that feeds it also?

Like RTE at times - staying stum conveniently?

MagicSean · 05-12-2012 12:33PM

Solair wrote: »

The point is that it's quite clear that people are PERCEIVING these systems to be non-transparent and that is really very damaging to society.

That has to change if we are going to move forward.

What annoys people about this penalty point situation is that the message being sent out is that there's one set of rules for influential people and another set of rules for everyone else.

That is an absolutely terrible message to send out. It's even worse in a situation where many people feel really hard done by given that they are also now paying for banks' gambling errors and will be facing a horrible budget at 2:30pm today.

Society starts to break down when people start to perceive that things are unfair.

A message only sent out by the media. If you have ever asked a Garda about a fixed charge penalty you would have been told you could write to the local Superintendent if you believed a mistake had been made. There was no secret arrangement. You are basing your perception of this unfairness solely on the occupation of the person who had the ticket cancelled. Somehow it has escaped your reasoning that a judge might have had a person in the car needing medical care or that a rugby players car registration might have been cloned. To be honest that says more about the person making the assumption than about the system.

Momento Mori · 05-12-2012 12:34PM

Find out who did it. Punish them.

Simple. Set an example so that anyone else that dares do something like this will think twice.

Man up, Ireland.

Death and Taxes · 05-12-2012 12:34PM

bellson wrote: »

Is Corrupt the right word for this, are Gardai lining their own pockets as a result or gaining in some other way personally?

Abuse of power maybe but if this is biggest scandal the ULA can uncover then were in a good place,

GSOC has been in place for years now, bar the odd hot headed garda commiting an assault or general rudeness by Gardai corruption on a wide scale has never been found,

A scandal in its lowest form this is

Corruption does not have to involve money changing hands, I think you will find that what you are describing is bribery.
Corruption occurs where the integrity of any institution or process is compromised, clearly if these allegations are true then the integrity of the Justice system and of the institution that is AGS has been corrupted.

Biggins · 05-12-2012 12:37PM

MagicSean wrote: »

A message only sent out by the media. If you have ever asked a Garda about a fixed charge penalty you would have been told you could write to the local Superintendent if you believed a mistake had been made. There was no secret arrangement. You are basing your perception of this unfairness solely on the occupation of the person who had the ticket cancelled. Somehow it has escaped your reasoning that a judge might have had a person in the car needing medical care or that a rugby players car registration might have been cloned. To be honest that says more about the person making the assumption than about the system.

There is truth in your words but as regards some of those that was named, they must had a good few emergencies to have their points wiped a good number of times.
The named judge was one of them. I believe from media reading that the judge had points wiped a number of times. The person must be very busy alone with all these emergencies!

Death and Taxes · 05-12-2012 12:37PM

MagicSean wrote: »

A message only sent out by the media. If you have ever asked a Garda about a fixed charge penalty you would have been told you could write to the local Superintendent if you believed a mistake had been made. There was no secret arrangement. You are basing your perception of this unfairness solely on the occupation of the person who had the ticket cancelled. Somehow it has escaped your reasoning that a judge might have had a person in the car needing medical care or that a rugby players car registration might have been cloned. To be honest that says more about the person making the assumption than about the system.

With respect Sean, 90,000+ cases and they were all emergencies? That is not credible. The idea that a judge was rushing someone in need of urgent medical attention on the same stretch of road, two days in a row is laughable.

Garda wiped driving slate for two judges and RTE presenter

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