yet again our justice system fails..

vard · 29-11-2012 07:26PM

If I had my way I'd have him exterminated. One of the many reasons why I'll never be put in charge.

People who are otherwise capable human beings should have to prove their worth to society. Life's a precious thing; you should have to prove that you're deserving of it.

29-11-2012 07:28PM

Does anyone remember FG's campaign for the 2007 general election(?).... when they proposed to get ''Tough on Crime''.
I remember it being a big point in their campaign on the posters.

Wonder whatever happened to that

Anyone who thinks that a party in Ireland can create jobs needs to view the bigger picture.
Our country is heavily reliant on the world economy and won't improve until things improve elsewhere.

Whats important for a party to achieve here is a standard of living, and deal with domestic issues.
I can't fathom to think we couldn't jail repeat offenders for cost of the social welfare they receive on the outside.
If it means putting 10 in a cell so be it. Have one Prison for first time offenders as they are now, after that you go to the budget prisons where guards patrol the walls with guns and the prisoners are left to their own devices with minimal facilities(think of a south American prison).

It'll be Sinn Fein for me in the next election, they're the only working class party out there. The other three are full of upper class folk who have no street knowledge or desire to help the working man.

steddyeddy · 29-11-2012 07:32PM

Wheres the bit about him having a deprived life in the article? For all we know he came from money.

My name is URL · 29-11-2012 07:32PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Does anyone remember FG's campaign for the 2007 general election(?).... when they proposed to get ''Tough on Crime''.

I remember it being a big point in their campaign on the posters.

It's the judge that decided to suspend most of the sentence.. not FG

If it means putting 10 in a cell so be it. Have one Prison for first time offenders as they are now, after that you go to the budget prisons where guards patrol the walls with guns and the prisoners are left to their own devices with minimal facilities(think of a south American prison).

Would you be willing to see Ireland landed with massive fines, embargoes & threats from the EU for ignoring human rights laws?

loggedoff · 29-11-2012 07:34PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Does anyone remember FG's campaign for the 2007 general election(?).... when they proposed to get ''Tough on Crime''.
I remember it being a big point in their campaign on the posters.

Wonder whatever happened to that

The only people FG are getting tough with are middle income, private sector,
couple of kids and a mortgage type people.

29-11-2012 07:38PM

My name is URL wrote: »

It's the judge that decided to suspend most of the sentence.. not FG

Would you be willing to see Ireland landed with massive fines, embargoes & threats from the EU for ignoring human rights laws?

Yes it is, but what happens when the judge sends them up to the prison at any rate?

They get temporary release, after a few months.

No point in the judge giving a 5 year term when they'll do no more than half the sentence either way.
Prisons are at there highest rates according to the Minister a few months ago.

On the 26th March 2010 the number of prisoners in the system exceeded 5,000 for the first time in the history of the State. As of yesterday, there were 4,495 prisoners in custody and 794 (that is 14.6%) on temporary release. Of course, the Irish Prison Service must accept all prisoners committed by the Courts into it’s custody and does not have the option of refusing committals.

http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/SP11000055

The only measures I've heard of FG propose were increasing the Temp release programme to ease the numbers and closing St.Pats because it's not up to standard..... hardly any reform there to make the country a safer place to live.

Time to think outside the box then and start cutting costs at every avenue. Surely you can keep someone in jail for E188 a week.

I'm aware of the European Human rights ****, that still doesn't change the fact that our justice system in terms of keeping them in prison is as soft as anywhere in Europe.
The whole SA remark was more what I'd like to do personally, it's about as much as these scumbags deserve... though as a compromise I'm sure we could at least knuckle them down better while keeping to the EU's laws.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-11-2012 07:38PM

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Does anyone remember FG's campaign for the 2007 general election(?).... when they proposed to get ''Tough on Crime''.
I remember it being a big point in their campaign on the posters.

Wonder whatever happened to that

They lost the election. Ironically, to the biggest bunch of career criminals the country has ever known.

The King of Moo · 29-11-2012 07:42PM

That sounds like a fair sentence for a minor, though I'd have preferred to have some of that suspended sentence changed to community service.

I don't see what sticking him in prison for years would achieve apart from turning him into a hardened criminal.

vard wrote: »

If I had my way I'd have him exterminated. One of the many reasons why I'll never be put in charge.

People who are otherwise capable human beings should have to prove their worth to society. Life's a precious thing; you should have to prove that you're deserving of it.

And I don't see what execution would achieve except satisfy kneejerk revenge fantasies.
Thank the gods you'll never be put in charge. You could go all around the world and not find many supporters for a state which executes minors.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-11-2012 07:45PM

Dunno about the fairness of it, and I agree with you completely about jail turning him into a hardened criminal, but the point: what is being done to stop him from reoffending? What sentences did he get on his previous four convictions?

I'm as liberal as they come, in that I want to know and understand the problem before I run my mouth or tell judges how to do their job, but there is nothing there of benefit to either him, the victim or society.

shedweller · 29-11-2012 07:47PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

That sounds like a fair sentence for a minor, though I'd have preferred to have some of that suspended sentence changed to community service.

I don't see what sticking him in prison for years would achieve apart from turning him into a hardened criminal.

Hence my hard labour recommendation.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-11-2012 07:52PM

shedweller wrote: »

Hence my hard labour recommendation.

With unemployment at 15%?

steddyeddy · 29-11-2012 07:54PM

Again is this guy from a deprived background?

The King of Moo · 29-11-2012 07:54PM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Dunno about the fairness of it, and I agree with you completely about jail turning him into a hardened criminal, but the point: what is being done to stop him from reoffending? What sentences did he get on his previous four convictions?

I'm as liberal as they come, in that I want to know and understand the problem before I run my mouth or tell judges how to do their job, but there is nothing there of benefit to either him, the victim or society.

I'm not sure there's a great deal that can be done to stop him reoffending, as a serial offender. Prison would achieve that, but it's also not an efficient way to do things, and would only exacerbate the problem. Some attempt at education combined with a way to curtail liberties without resorting to prison would be ideal.
What I'd prefer to see is more of an effort being made to ensure that as few as possible people are likely to become serial offenders, but that would be a complex, time-consuming process that I'd imagine few politicians would want to tackle.

Unfortunately there'll always be a small number of people who will become serial offenders regardless of the society they live in, the opportunities presented to them and the lack of prejudice against them.
I just think that their numbers of such people are far lower than the people who believe that society is in a rapid decline think.

loggedoff · 29-11-2012 07:58PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

And I don't see what execution would achieve except satisfy kneejerk revenge fantasies.

He wouldn't do it again and maybe a few of his buddies would take note.

The King of Moo · 29-11-2012 07:59PM

shedweller wrote: »

Hence my hard labour recommendation.

For how long? I'm not sure that'd be very effective at straightening out someone who's gone from being unemployed to being forced by the state to do heavy labour. I can only see that breeding a lot of resentment.
But necessary work, done in an environment that made it seem more like a normal workplace and incentivised hard work could work well.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 29-11-2012 08:02PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

I'm not sure there's a great deal that can be done to stop him reoffending, as a serial offender. Prison would achieve that, but it's also not an efficient way to do things, and would only exacerbate the problem. Some attempt at education combined with a way to curtail liberties without resorting to prison would be ideal.
What I'd prefer to see is more of an effort being made to ensure that as few as possible people are likely to become serial offenders, but that would be a complex, time-consuming process that I'd imagine few politicians would want to tackle.

Unfortunately there'll always be a small number of people who will become serial offenders regardless of the society they live in, the opportunities presented to them and the lack of prejudice against them.
I just think that their numbers of such people are far lower than the people who believe that society is in a rapid decline think.

Came across a near perfect solution in Denmark, years ago.

School was built on an island about 7 miles off the coast in the north sea. Only one bridge to conenct. The took kids aged 14 to 18, with an emphasis on discipline and education (the first two years were more like a military boot camp than a school, the later two much less so). At 18 the kids took state exams.

The point is they had very little freedom when they first got there and theyre literally was no where to run. If one of them went missing, we just put the kettle on drove along the bridge until we found them. They hated it, but they were stuck there.

It worked, too. By the time they got to 18 they were decent students, and usually passed the exams. most of them commented on what **** they were four years earlier.

Would it work here? Well, maybe - if people didnt describe it as a holiday camp or harp on about prefering the death penaly and hard labour, but some people are never satisfied.

shedweller · 29-11-2012 08:49PM

With the education cuts going on i doubt that'll happen. Good idea though.

vard · 29-11-2012 09:23PM

The King of Moo wrote: »

That sounds like a fair sentence for a minor, though I'd have preferred to have some of that suspended sentence changed to community service.

I don't see what sticking him in prison for years would achieve apart from turning him into a hardened criminal.

And I don't see what execution would achieve except satisfy kneejerk revenge fantasies.
Thank the gods you'll never be put in charge. You could go all around the world and not find many supporters for a state which executes minors.

Revenge? He's not hurt me; my life is not directly affected by his useless existence. There would be nothing sadistic about it. Just the rational fact that he's a dangerous waste of space making no contribution to society and the world would be a better place without him. As it is he'll be free to roam the streets and, like so many others, he will offend again. Getting rid of him would save lives and protect the victims of his inevitable future crimes.

Honest working people are paying for his upkeep - I'm not a violent person - I'm the most passive guy you'll ever meet, but I just can't see the logic in that.

The King of Moo · 29-11-2012 09:36PM

vard wrote: »

Revenge? He's not hurt me; my life is not directly affected by his useless existence. There would be nothing sadistic about it. Just the rational fact that he's a dangerous waste of space making no contribution to society and the world would be a better place without him. As it is he'll be free to roam the streets and, like so many others, he will offend again. Getting rid of him would save lives and protect the victims of his inevitable future crimes.

Honest working people are paying for his upkeep - I'm not a violent person - I'm the most passive guy you'll ever meet, but I just can't see the logic in that.

What crimes would you like to see the death penalty introduced for? Would you allow the death penalty for adults only in the cases of any of these crimes? Do you entirely preclude the possibility of redemption, and the notion that an individual might improve themselves? Do you have any moral problems with the killing of an individual before they've fully attained adulthood?

starviewadams · 29-11-2012 10:00PM

Seems a fair enough sentence for a 16 year old.One last shot at turning things around before being turfed into the adult prison system.

LostBoy101 · 29-11-2012 10:02PM

You don't get justice in court, just words of law.

29-11-2012 10:21PM

That sentence is wrong. Just wrong.

IMO what that little thug did was make an attempt on the life of a member of the Gardaí.

That is a disgraceful sentence for the crime committed. He could have seriously injured/crippled/killed her.

Is it just me or is crime getting more severe in this country and the judicial sentencing is not keeping up with it?

loggedoff · 29-11-2012 10:26PM

TheTorment wrote: »

That sentence is wrong. Just wrong.

IMO what that little thug did was make an attempt on the life of a member of the Gardaí.

That is a disgraceful sentence for the crime committed. He could have seriously injured/crippled/killed her.

Is it just me or is crime getting more severe in this country and the judicial sentencing is not keeping up with it?

Attempted murder, no?

29-11-2012 10:33PM

loggedoff wrote: »

Attempted murder, no?

Well when someone comes at you with a 4x4 Suzuki at speed I think you can be assured they are not about to stop and ask you for directions.

hucklebuck · 30-11-2012 12:04AM

Marsden wrote: »

he was directed to keep the peace

This is another thing that gets my goat, if you are told to keep the peace it means you were previously doing it, these scumbag **** skobie retards wouldnt' know the meaning of it.

vard · 30-11-2012 12:41AM

The King of Moo wrote: »

What crimes would you like to see the death penalty introduced for? Would you allow the death penalty for adults only in the cases of any of these crimes? Do you entirely preclude the possibility of redemption, and the notion that an individual might improve themselves? Do you have any moral problems with the killing of an individual before they've fully attained adulthood?

It would of course be a drastic measure used only for the most substantial of crimes. Attempted murder would fall into that category. I don't particularly care if a murderer is intent on redemption. In my book, you forfeit your right to life when you take someone else's.

With regard to adulthood, children can not be held fully accountable for their actions. At the age of 16, however, you are no longer a child; I'd like to see offenders of that age face the full severity of the law. Those in charge of enforcing it seem to disagree.

There can often be mitigating circumstances; things would be taken on a case by case basis... but I don't know why I'm talking as if this is an option that would ever be considered. Don't worry, these people will be free to enjoy a long care free redemptive life while their victims are left to suffer.

Nettle · 30-11-2012 01:23AM

Ikky Poo2 wrote: »

Came across a near perfect solution in Denmark, years ago.

School was built on an island about 7 miles off the coast in the north sea. Only one bridge to conenct. The took kids aged 14 to 18, with an emphasis on discipline and education (the first two years were more like a military boot camp than a school, the later two much less so). At 18 the kids took state exams.

The point is they had very little freedom when they first got there and theyre literally was no where to run. If one of them went missing, we just put the kettle on drove along the bridge until we found them. They hated it, but they were stuck there.

It worked, too. By the time they got to 18 they were decent students, and usually passed the exams. most of them commented on what **** they were four years earlier.

Would it work here? Well, maybe - if people didnt describe it as a holiday camp or harp on about prefering the death penaly and hard labour, but some people are never satisfied.[/Quote

The success rate of this place is. 98% compared to the Irish detention centre for young offenders being 2%. It's actually cheaper to send the kids over to the island, a good 70 grand cheaper but the government/hse only allow for 3 kids a year to be sent over, not sure why. Some kids are sent to similar places on America which also focuses on wilderness therapy, it will never catch on here, it would cost too much money to research and train in the area! It should be the way forward tho

MaxSteele · 30-11-2012 01:25AM

A relative of mine used to do social work with adults from the Drumfinn/Cherry Orchard areas of Ballyfermot.

As nice as they were to her, they were of the exact same attitude toward the garda and the "shure der only buzzin bou' on d field havin a few cans and doin yokes derp" attitude.

Plenty of amenities in Ballyfermot and proper services. Just a large minority of utter filth in it too though. Most people wouldn't condone the death penalty, yet most people wouldn't give a rats about this scrotebag, knuckle dragger turning up dead in a ditch either.

Another waste of space going to a holiday camp.

steddyeddy · 30-11-2012 01:35AM

I hope the woman involved makes a full recovery which is more important. Although I can imagine this type of thing would have a traumatic effect.

MagicSean · 30-11-2012 01:51AM

It's worth noting that this wasn't a simple matter of a young lad stealing a car and joy riding. This was an organised campaign to attack and kill gardai. The original plan was to lure a Garda car into a cul de sac and then petrol bomb it. When this didn't work they set about ramming gardai with stolen cars which they had stashed.

The sad part is that the Garda in question will probably meet this guy back on the streets in less than six months and have to endure the taunts of him and his friends. He'll do less time in detention than she has spent being treated for her injury.

yet again our justice system fails..

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