Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

ScumLord · 19-11-2012 02:30PM

rubberdiddies wrote: »

on the other hand, it is used as a stepping stone to other drugs, this really is a fact for a lot of people. Most peoples first drug is cannabis........

It's not really, I'm sure like me most peoples first contact with drugs was either alcohol or tobacco. Mine was tobacco and smoking had all the excitement of any other drug at first, robbing fags, getting dizzy and sick from smoking them to quick. Cigarettes even change your brain chemistry so your more susceptible to becoming addicting to other things later in life.

Legalising cannabis will be a huge financial blow to organised crime, it would be like preventing or limiting Apples ability to sell iPhones. Putting such a big hole in their finances is going to make it difficult for them to maintain the rest of their business. If ordinary people aren't around dealers they won't be as tempted to try other drugs which wouldn't be available at the point of sale for legal weed.

we don't truly know the affect it has on people (the risk of lung cancer is 20 times higher than just smoking a cigarette for example.....there are studies showing a link to schizophrenia, I personally know someone who has been left with schizophrenia for the past 15 years due to heavy use)

He wasn't given schizophrenia by weed, he was born with that condition.

i'm currently leaning towards it remaining illegal, though i'm sure anyway it wont be legalised here anytime in the near or distant future[/QUOTE]

Grayson · 19-11-2012 02:34PM

the_syco wrote: »

Lets set up such a shop in Donegal.

The reasons;
Next to that border to the UK
They want job creation up there
Lots of room to build greenhouses
They seem to hate the government up there

=-=

OD on alcohol; death
OD on weed; make up a few hours later with serious munchies

marry me so we can run away to amsterdam and set up a shop together.

Actually, there's only one thing I'd add to the list you made. make sure that ID is presented on every transaction.
And personally, I'd grow indoors. Get a warehouse space with plenty of alarms, cctv and possibly a security guard.

If it's done properly you could harvest every two months.

rubberdiddies · 19-11-2012 02:37PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No. Restriction doesn't educate people. Restriction like that makes more criminals. Education is the key. Proper education.

Most peoples first drug is not cannabis. Alcohol is. Alcohol plays a huge factor in what people are willing to take/eat/smoke/snort/use.

There are studies. Yes. But results are interpreted by whoever wants to bend them to their will. A lot studies start with the answer they want.

Can I please have this link to this "study" that cannabis smoke is 20 times more carcinogenic than tobacco? Is it this one? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/ Where it says in line 7, that why tobacco smoke, but not cannabis smoke, causes lung cancer?

Or this one? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16128224 where it says

As for the "cause" of schizophrenia. There are as many studies that dispute it as confirm it.

And more young kids will have access to marijuana? More? Seriously? As it is, cannabis can be easier to obtain than alcohol. If you think kids can't access it at the moment, you are very much mistaken.

like i said, i am sitting on the fence for now. I was giving what I perceive to be some of the pro's and con's. On phone so will find those reports later, however a quick google (like I did), will let you find them yourself for now.

you say that there are studies and that results are interpreted by whoever wants to bend them to their will. I agree somewhat. Sort of exactly like what you (and others) are doing by not seeing the negative side of cannabis/marijuana and arguing against the negative.

I feel that a lot more research needs to be done.

srsly78 · 19-11-2012 02:43PM

rubberdiddies wrote: »

like i said, i am sitting on the fence for now. I was giving what I perceive to be some of the pro's and con's. On phone so will find those reports later, however a quick google (like I did), will let you find them yourself for now.

you say that there are studies and that results are interpreted by whoever wants to bend them to their will. I agree somewhat. Sort of exactly like what you (and others) are doing by not seeing the negative side of cannabis/marijuana and arguing against the negative.

I feel that a lot more research needs to be done.

Science works by consensus. The weight of evidence on the pro-legalisation side vastly outweighs the anti-side, most of which has been discredited. Similarly with other drugs.

What we are left with is a political problem, as evidenced when the UK government sacked it's top drugs scientist for telling the truth (ecstacy less dangerous than horse-riding).

So: a lot of research has been done, but lots of people ignore it.

rubberdiddies · 19-11-2012 02:48PM

srsly78 wrote: »

Science works by consensus. The weight of evidence on the pro-legalisation side vastly outweighs the anti-side, most of which has been discredited. Similarly with other drugs.

What we are left with is a political problem, as evidenced when the UK government sacked it's top drugs scientist for telling the truth (ecstacy less dangerous than horse-riding).

So: a lot of research has been done, but lots of people ignore it.

and has the evidence on the pro side not also been discredited?

srsly78 · 19-11-2012 02:50PM

Some has, much hasn't. It's about the weight of evidence, sure you can find bull**** points on both sides of the debate.

MagicSean · 19-11-2012 03:37PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

No. Restriction doesn't educate people. Restriction like that makes more criminals. Education is the key. Proper education.

Most peoples first drug is not cannabis. Alcohol is. Alcohol plays a huge factor in what people are willing to take/eat/smoke/snort/use.

There are studies. Yes. But results are interpreted by whoever wants to bend them to their will. A lot studies start with the answer they want.

Can I please have this link to this "study" that cannabis smoke is 20 times more carcinogenic than tobacco? Is it this one? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1277837/ Where it says in line 7, that why tobacco smoke, but not cannabis smoke, causes lung cancer?

Or this one? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16128224 where it says

As for the "cause" of schizophrenia. There are as many studies that dispute it as confirm it.

And more young kids will have access to marijuana? More? Seriously? As it is, cannabis can be easier to obtain than alcohol. If you think kids can't access it at the moment, you are very much mistaken.

I'm not sayin alcohol should be banned, I'm saying that the "Alcohol is worse" argument is not a good argument.

jasonmcco wrote: »

http://alcoholireland.ie/alcohol-facts/alcohol-related-harm-facts-and-statistics/

PERSON DIES EVERY 7 HOURS IN IRELAND DUE TO ALCOHOL.

Either all drugs are banned or all drugs are legal.

My position is legalise them all and allow people to choose which drug they want to use and stop them being corralled into using a very damaging and legal drug(alcohol).

It's all about money for the alcohol dealers and keeping the sheep ill informed.

Insulting people should help the campaign.

MagicSean · 19-11-2012 03:38PM

120_Minutes wrote: »

Luke Flanagan to bring cannabis legislation bill before the dail next April. Article in today's examiner.

A well organised and respectable campaign to support it would have a real chance of getting it passed.

kupus · 19-11-2012 03:51PM

charlemont wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/cases-too-complex-as-whitecollar-convictions-plummet-3297189.html
More like too much effort involved..
Much easier to bring people to court for smoking..

MagicSean wrote: »

Economically it makes sense. The money saved from providing legal aid alone to people prosecuted for simple possession would probably go along way to counseling and information services.

MagicSean wrote: »

A well organised and respectable campaign to support it would have a real chance of getting it passed.

less people up in court for procession charges means less money for lawyers.....Just because they know the law, do not think for one second they actually give a sh1te about it or the consequences of their actions for the good of the country......
Same goes for Judges.

As I said before, Ireland is a little country with too many finger in the pie....

Vintners lobby group don't want it as it will effect their business.

Politicians don't want it as it will effect their Up-standing in the local community.
Religious don't want it as there's no mention of JC ever getting stoned in the bible (afaik)
Lawyers don't want it as it will effect their little money spinner circle jerk called "free legal aid"
Criminals don't want it as it will effect their trade

Garda----may---- not want it as it may cause a drop in their funding
Doctors

may---- not want it as they may not want to deal with stoners, and the rise in expenditure of having to deal with this.

Anyone im leaving out?

Iwannahurl · 19-11-2012 04:37PM

ScumLord wrote: »

He wasn't given schizophrenia by weed, he was born with that condition.

I very much doubt it.

A predisposition perhaps, but afaik there is now good evidence that cannabis (especially modern high THC varieties) can trigger psychosis.

srsly78 wrote: »

Science works by consensus.

Science works by the gathering and dissemination of evidence.

Politics works by consensus, or so we hope anyway.

Science can be messy, but to really mess things up you need politics.

srsly78 · 19-11-2012 04:39PM

That has been debunked, has been linked on here many times. There are other studies that show it can even relieve symptoms, go figure.

Iwannahurl · 19-11-2012 04:55PM

srsly78 wrote: »

That has been debunked, has been linked on here many times. There are other studies that show it can even relieve symptoms, go figure.

What has been debunked, and what is the evidence for alleged debunking?

Odysseus · 19-11-2012 04:58PM

The whole psychosis question is that; it is still a question. I could fill my office here with papers saying it can result in psychosis and papers saying the opposite.

However, I have working in this game too long now, and I have to said it can cause psycotic episodes in some people. Loads of people can use it with no problems, but for other it is a drug to be avoided.

I have seen it destroy peoples lives like any other addiction; and on the other hand I have seen people use it occassionally with no major issues.

As I said eariler I would like to see people have access to whatever drug the want; but I don't think we can avoid pointing out where use is harmful.

I have seen different types of drug induced disorders, in some people the drug was the causative factor in other cases it was something within the person, then there were other cases still where I could not say what caused it.

srsly78 · 19-11-2012 04:59PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

What has been debunked, and what is the evidence for alleged debunking?

Read through some of the various cannabis threads on boards, there has been much discussion about this point. Basically it was only 1 flawed study that came out with the whole psychosis thing, the results are not so clear cut. Other studies found no risks involved for adults.

danniemcq · 19-11-2012 05:17PM

We are losing the war on drugs...

that means the people on drugs are winning the war!

bill hicks

Iwannahurl · 19-11-2012 05:19PM

srsly78 wrote: »

Read through some of the various cannabis threads on boards, there has been much discussion about this point. Basically it was only 1 flawed study that came out with the whole psychosis thing, the results are not so clear cut. Other studies found no risks involved for adults.

Boards is far from being a reliable source of such information. Or any information, come to think of it.

"Only one flawed study" -- really? Here are a few links to some relevant studies and authoritative sources. A few years old, admittedly, but I don't have time just now to find newer material (which may or may not support the earlier findings).

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15574485

http://www.bmj.com/content/325/7374/1195.1

http://www.bmj.com/content/325/7374/1183

http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/content/156/4/319.full

http://www.ukcia.org/research/EffectsCannabisAndPsychosisVulnerability.pdf

SRFC · 19-11-2012 05:24PM

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/4000-drugs-dad-to-avoid-conviction-if-he-pays-1000-3297469.html

Dont know If its been posted by the justice system is an absolute shambles this man caught with 4 thousand worth of drugs and let off from a criminal record because he paid a 1000e donation :rolleyes: money sure talks in the court rooms in Ireland sends the message out to the vermin drug dealers once you appear a model citizen you wont be seeing the inside of a jail PATHETIC

nxbyveromdwjpg · 19-11-2012 05:30PM

SRFC wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/4000-drugs-dad-to-avoid-conviction-if-he-pays-1000-3297469.html

Dont know If its been posted by the justice system is an absolute shambles this man caught with 4 thousand worth of drugs and let off from a criminal record because he paid a 1000e donation :rolleyes: money sure talks in the court rooms in Ireland sends the message out to the vermin drug dealers once you appear a model citizen you wont be seeing the inside of a jail PATHETIC

Somebody think of the children!

Non-violent crime, no previous etc, the punishment was fitting.

srsly78 · 19-11-2012 05:32PM

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Boards is far from being a reliable source of such information. Or any information, come to think of it.

"Only one flawed study" -- really? Here are a few links to some relevant studies and authoritative sources. A few years old, admittedly, but I don't have time just now to find newer material (which may or may not support the earlier findings).

What I meant is that people had posted lots of links to studies in other posts on boards. Sorry I am in work right now so I can't replicate this research.

SRFC · 19-11-2012 05:32PM

nm wrote: »

Somebody think of the children!

Non-violent crime, no previous etc, the punishment was fitting.

Just a once off that must of been with money and drugs found :rolleyes:

Suppose that rich rapist in drumcondra sentence was fitting because he had no previous and made a donation?

kupus · 19-11-2012 05:43PM

SRFC wrote: »

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/4000-drugs-dad-to-avoid-conviction-if-he-pays-1000-3297469.html
Dont know If its been posted by the justice system is an absolute shambles this man caught with 4 thousand worth of drugs and let off from a criminal record because he paid a 1000e donation :rolleyes: money sure talks in the court rooms in Ireland sends the message out to the vermin drug dealers once you appear a model citizen you wont be seeing the inside of a jail PATHETIC

WOW, just wow, what else can be said?

Fighting Irish · 19-11-2012 06:43PM

SRFC wrote: »

Just a once off that must of been with money and drugs found :rolleyes:

Suppose that rich rapist in drumcondra sentence was fitting because he had no previous and made a donation?

:rolleyes:

charlemont · 19-11-2012 06:52PM

nm wrote: »

Somebody think of the children!

Non-violent crime, no previous etc, the punishment was fitting.

What your saying is true, But its not a fair system of justice, Compare it to me getting caught with the makings of a few joints when I was 18 and getting a conviction for it, My 1st offence too. This guy gets caught with heaps of drugs and gets no conviction..He must have sang like a canary...

Piliger · 19-11-2012 07:11PM

nm wrote: »

Somebody think of the children!

Non-violent crime, no previous etc, the punishment was fitting.

There should have been no punishment because there should have been no crime. INSANE.

Sofiztikated · 19-11-2012 07:53PM

I love discussing this with the likes of Overheal and Iwannahurl. Proper rebuttals and links to studies.

As Overheal said, there's a number of arguments for and against cannabis and mental health. I believe that the truth is somewhere in between.

As far as other substances, recreational use, and legalisation, where I stand on it, I don't know.

Of course I like to not be a criminal for consuming my narcotics of choice, but like everyone, I have my line in the sand.

Iwannahurl · 19-11-2012 07:59PM

srsly78 wrote: »

What I meant is that people had posted lots of links to studies in other posts on boards. Sorry I am in work right now so I can't replicate this research.

Unless you're working as a researcher in an appropriate setting, of course!

What I was getting at is that people post all sorts of stuff on Boards. Much of it is intended to support a particular world view (or prejudice) and too often it's unreliable material that's posted with no thought given to whether it stands up to scrutiny or not.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 19-11-2012 08:09PM

SRFC wrote: »

Just a once off that must of been with money and drugs found :rolleyes:

Who cares if it was or if it wasn't?

SRFC wrote: »

Suppose that rich rapist in drumcondra sentence was fitting because he had no previous and made a donation?

Well no, because he raped somebody.

Do you honestly not see the difference between the two?? Does this really need to be explained?

tayto lover · 19-11-2012 08:12PM

nm wrote: »

Somebody think of the children!

Non-violent crime, no previous etc, the punishment was fitting.

Non-violent crime ??
There was me thinking that those reports of gangland murders on the News over the years must have been all in my head.

SRFC · 19-11-2012 08:14PM

You wouldnt be s accepting of this bloke getting off scot free with a donation if a drug dealer sold your kids drugs and killed them would you?

Not a chance justice system is a shambles pay a dontation or fine and its all good the poverty stricken with no money to pay these donations will spend a holiday in mountjoy.

nxbyveromdwjpg · 19-11-2012 08:31PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Non-violent crime ??
There was me thinking that those reports of gangland murders on the News over the years must have been all in my head.

Gangland murders are a result of putting the drugs trade into the hands of gangsters.. I..

ah **** it, not gonna bother

Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

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