Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

MagicSean · 18-11-2012 09:06PM

bedrock#1 wrote: »

You missed the point, which is that the MAJORITY of drug users don't think about where it comes from because they have no contact with gun toting drug dealers. Of course if people stopped and thought it through they would of course come to that conclusion - which is why I added the second comment. The MAJORITY don't do that when they're out taking part in the great consumer orgy that is neo-liberalism.

But none of that reduces the responsibility of the purchaser.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 09:06PM

120_Minutes wrote: »

As I said earlier, regarding weed, what if my friend grows his own, and sells me his surplus?

Does this premise apply if your friend opens a meth lab and has a surplus he passes on?

mikom · 18-11-2012 09:08PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Cannabis is not something you need. It is a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy it. Simple really.

Rewind a few years........

Condoms are not something you need. They are a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy them. Simple really.

bedrock#1 · 18-11-2012 09:08PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Yes, but why are the groups that I describe unwilling to take the moral stance to stop buying from drug dealers. Demand, why is there a demand for drugs, would it be dependency?

Do you see my argument, whether drugs are legal or illegal there is a dependency on them because they are addictive and with every addiction comes problems.

I personally am swayed on the side of legalising drugs but remain unconvinced as the people who are most vocal are still the one's who fund the illegal trade that is prevalent in every village, town and city in Ireland.

Ok.

There's a lot going on in your comment there.

Demand, why is there demand for alcohol? Are most people who consume dependent on it? No. Why do people drink or take drugs? Millions of reasons. Because they're happy or sad or indifferent or horny or bored or want to get sh1t faced or dance or...... you get the picture.

Not all drugs are addictive. Not all drug users are addicts. You have to be careful when using terms like these because they tend to perpetuate certain myths about drug users. You can use drugs and equally they can be abused. As a society we must begin a rational debate addressing these issues because the discourse surrounding drugs in both the media and between politicians is highly destructive.

Don't really know what to say to your third paragraph, except assume makes an ass out of you and me.

richy · 18-11-2012 09:09PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Cannabis is not something you need. It is a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy it. Simple really.

Neither is a smart phone or laptop. But I bet you own one seeing as you are using the internet. Therefore, by your theory you are supporting Chinas human rights abusing government. You keep ignoring this point.

120_Minutes · 18-11-2012 09:10PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Does this premise apply if your friend opens a meth lab and has a surplus he passes on?

I'll defer to others on that, weed is my only illegal vice. its the only drug i'll discuss in topics like this. i have no interest in the others and i have very little experience with them.

Offy · 18-11-2012 09:11PM

LostBoy101 wrote: »

Legalising drugs is like a receipe for disaster. Take long-term marijuana smoking for example, does increasing tax stop them from smoking? No because it's addictive and this will apply to dangerous illegal drugs.

The only way to prevent big amount of drugs coming in is to increase the security strictness on the harbours.

Of course you do know that scientifically its non addictive, dont you?

Offy · 18-11-2012 09:13PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Cannabis is not something you need. It is a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy it. Simple really.

And what about its medicinal uses? Lets say for example someone with MS? Should they suffer because the law says they cant have it? The law needs to be changed.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 09:22PM

Ok, I am more or less on the side of legalised drugs as it shows a mature society but I still need to understand from one of the advocates that take drugs why morally do you not desist from purchasing them from drug dealers?

The news is covered in the death and misery these people you are funding cause.

Ellis Dee · 18-11-2012 09:22PM

Recognition of realities is the beginning of all wisdom, so it's good to see that the Gardai now realise - however belatedly - that drugs being illegal only creates opportunities for criminals. Not to mention all the other downsides.:rolleyes:

However, the Gardai only enforce the law as it exists and to the extent that they can, and it is the politicians who make those laws. They are the ones who need to open their eyes and hopefully they will eventually listen to the Gardai, who at least know what they are talking about.:cool:

starviewadams · 18-11-2012 09:26PM

If it would free up more scarce Garda resources to proactively deal with crime rather then just react to it,then they should just legalise marijuana at least.Would also have the added bonus of creating more revenue for the state and possibly make Ireland a more attractive tourist destination.Would also put an end to the slave labour grow houses that are mentioned in the article.

Won't happen though,because the Govt is filled with stupid old cúnts who don't want to rock the boat,and a poorly resourced Garda force won't directly affect them or their family's anyways.

Sofiztikated · 18-11-2012 09:31PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Why is it not going to happen? Is it not feasible that the main customers of these drug dealers, working / middle class young people, cannot make a moral stance and stop buying drugs from the drug dealers?

Moral stance? Are you serious, or are you trolling?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my morals, thank you very much. However, should I want to purchase some cannabis, or hell for that matter MDMA, or whatever you're having yourself, my "morals" are wrong?

If I want to chemically alter my perception, why can I not, as an adult, legally choose to do so?

And it's not just working/middle class young people as you put it. I know people of a variety of ages that smoke weed. And for a variety of reasons. Most of it is recreationally, yes. But what about for those with eating issues? Stress? Nausea due to cancer treatments?

There is a massive industry, waiting to be taken advantage off. Seriously. Contruction. Legal. Security. Retail. Transport. Horticulture/farming. Research.

Not all drug users are substance abusers. I can point to a number of people that use whatever recreationally, but come Monday morning, clean, sober, and good at their job. Hell, I'd be one of those people. I don't drink that much any more, but why should I be deprived my vice? To paraphrase a line from "Waiting," I wasn't consulted when the laws were written!

richy · 18-11-2012 09:33PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Ok, I am more or less on the side of legalised drugs as it shows a mature society but I still need to understand from one of the advocates that take drugs why morally do you not desist from purchasing them from drug dealers?

The news is covered in the death and misery these people you are funding cause.

Same argument as I put to magic sean. Your laptop and smartphone contain rare earth elements which largely come from China. By purchasing said items you are supporting the human rights abuses perpetuated by the Chinese government. Where is your moral compass? Why do you support these human rights abuses that are covered in the news. All these Tibetan monks that have commited self immolation because of there countries occupation by China.

120_Minutes · 18-11-2012 09:35PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Ok, I am more or less on the side of legalised drugs as it shows a mature society but I still need to understand from one of the advocates that take drugs why morally do you not desist from purchasing them from drug dealers?

The news is covered in the death and misery these people you are funding.

do you want my opinion?

I like weed

I like smoking weed

I want to buy weed

If i want to buy it i'm forced to buy it from someone who grows it, or from a friend of someone who grows it, or a friend of a friend who grows it, etc etc etc.

In my 15 + years of smoking it i've had to get it on occasion from "dealers" or people who've got it from dealers. luckily i've had little or no interaction with these types. as weed is my only illegal vice i find that stoners stick together and tend not to touch much of the harder stuff (or i dont associate with those types, maybe i've been lucky)

I don't want to be seen as a criminal in the eyes of the law for wanting to indulge in what in my experience (not yours, your cousin who got a bit loopy from it, your mate who bacame a waster on it, MINE) is relatively harmless drug, and i dont want to have to buy it from criminals.

To summerise, I want continue to buy it and buy it legally. If its not legal, i'll still continue to buy it. The moral ramifications of that are mine to bear.

Sofiztikated · 18-11-2012 09:40PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Ok, I am more or less on the side of legalised drugs as it shows a mature society but I still need to understand from one of the advocates that take drugs why morally do you not desist from purchasing them from drug dealers?

The news is covered in the death and misery these people you are funding cause.

I'll answer your question.

Why do some people purchase from drug dealers? (I say some, because you are associating dealing with organised crime. Not all are linked to organised crime. I get mine from a homegrown outfit. His only crime is selling what would cover his costs for growing, so that he has good quality, risk free cannabis for himself.)

Because they have no other avenue of sale to purchase from.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 09:41PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Moral stance? Are you serious, or are you trolling?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with my morals, thank you very much. However, should I want to purchase some cannabis, or hell for that matter MDMA, or whatever you're having yourself, my "morals" are wrong?

If I want to chemically alter my perception, why can I not, as an adult, legally choose to do so?

And it's not just working/middle class young people as you put it. I know people of a variety of ages that smoke weed. And for a variety of reasons. Most of it is recreationally, yes. But what about for those with eating issues? Stress? Nausea due to cancer treatments?

There is a massive industry, waiting to be taken advantage off. Seriously. Contruction. Legal. Security. Retail. Transport. Horticulture/farming. Research.

Not all drug users are substance abusers. I can point to a number of people that use whatever recreationally, but come Monday morning, clean, sober, and good at their job. Hell, I'd be one of those people. I don't drink that much any more, but why should I be deprived my vice? To paraphrase a line from "Waiting," I wasn't consulted when the laws were written!

I am agreeing with you but I am still awaiting an answer as to why people will still purchase drugs from drug dealers though they are aware of the problems these people cause in society.

I am all for your right to take whatever drug you want but I fail to understand why people seem to have no issue with funding the illegal drug trade.

If it is just for recreational use then would the moral argument not be to stop buying from drug dealers. No customers no business.

Is it a question of you having your perceived rights but **** the consequences as the law doesn't suit me?

By the way I am not trolling, but thanks for asking.

Sofiztikated · 18-11-2012 09:43PM

120_Minutes wrote: »

do you want my opinion?

I like weed

I like smoking weed

I want to buy weed

If i want to buy it i'm forced to buy it from someone who grows it, or from a friend of someone who grows it, or a friend of a friend who grows it, etc etc etc.

In my 15 + years of smoking it i've had to get it on occasion from "dealers" or people who've got it from dealers. luckily i've had little or no interaction with these types. as weed is my only illegal vice i find that stoners stick together and tend not to touch much of the harder stuff (or i dont associate with those types, maybe i've been lucky)

I don't want to be seen as a criminal in the eyes of the law for wanting to indulge in what in my experience (not yours, your cousin who got a bit loopy from it, your mate who bacame a waster on it, MINE) is relatively harmless drug, and i dont want to have to buy it from criminals.

To summerise, I want continue to buy it and buy it legally. If its not legal, i'll still continue to buy it. The moral ramifications of that are mine to bear.

This. This. A hundred times, this.

120_Minutes · 18-11-2012 09:46PM

Spiritual wrote: »

I am all for your right to take whatever drug you want but I fail to understand why people seem to have no issue with funding the illegal drug trade.

If it is just for recreational use then would the moral argument not be to stop buying from drug dealers. No customers no business.

Is it a question of you having your perceived rights but **** the consequences as the law doesn't suit me?

people stop buying from dealers, dealers go out of business, no one is taking drugs, government think problem has gone away, bad law remains unchanged.

people continue to buy from dealers, demand never goes away, while at the same time fighting to get law changed, eventually bad law gets changed, illegal trade reduces or dries up altogether, problem solved.

I'd rather have the latter.

one of the hardest things to do is to get a government to admit its wrong.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 09:49PM

Sofiztikated wrote: »

I'll answer your question.

Why do some people purchase from drug dealers? (I say some, because you are associating dealing with organised crime. Not all are linked to organised crime. I get mine from a homegrown outfit. His only crime is selling what would cover his costs for growing, so that he has good quality, risk free cannabis for himself.)

Because they have no other avenue of sale to purchase from.

Do you purchase yours from this home grown source?
Your comments are about marijuana I assume unless your home grown source is growing coca or poppies?

The pubs and clubs of Ireland will be full of people who are on MDMA, Coke, I am taking an intuitive punt that most of them will have come from organised crime.

Your case is not really the answer I am looking for, I am more interested in a response from one of the "weekend party people".

mikom · 18-11-2012 09:52PM

Spiritual wrote: »

I am agreeing with you but I am still awaiting an answer as to why people will still purchase drugs from drug dealers though they are aware of the problems these people cause in society.

A cannabis scenario for you.

You wish to ingest cannabis.
You have no cannabis.
Do you cultivate it yourself, thus maneuvering around the organised crime element?
Or do you buy it from a dealer?

Before you answer please check up on the penalties for simple possession and the penalties for cultivation.
Would you take a punt on the difference?

120_Minutes · 18-11-2012 09:52PM

Spiritual wrote: »

The pubs and clubs of Ireland will be full of people who are on MDMA, Coke, I am taking an intuitive punt that most of them will have come from organised crime.

To be honest if cocaine stayed illegal i wouldnt lose any sleep, mdma i'm fairly indifferent towards, and i agree with your earlier sentiment that as a nation we're not even responsible with drink.

I am aware that may make me a hypocrite, but i'd rather hang out with stoners than any of the above.

Wacker The Attacker · 18-11-2012 09:54PM

mikemac1 wrote: »

Joe Duffy doesn't care

He interviewed Moore St sellers with their smuggled cigarettes and sure aren't times hard, trying to make a few pound, keep the wolf from the door.
These are my little people, salt of da earth.

Didn't care much about head shops around Dublin
But when one was near to Clontarf he let loose. Just won't do in leafy Clontarf, keep these shops to the inner city.

And that's what will happen here.

Go ahead and legalize it and the sellers will stay where they are

300 rehab centres around Ireland? They will all be in the very worst areas of town.

I do be doin' my bit of aul drugs in the aul leafy suburbs joe.

Jenara mean Joe.

Piliger · 18-11-2012 09:59PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Y
I personally am swayed on the side of legalising drugs but remain unconvinced as the people who are most vocal are still the one's who fund the illegal trade that is prevalent in every village, town and city in Ireland. This is the fact whether you are buying it off your friend or another, the money goes up to the dealers.

The ones who are most vocal ? That is nonsense. Most people who support legalisation are not drug users. I have never even smoked, and don't drink.

The fact is, and it has been documented elsewhere, that organised crime in the US has worked hard to keep drugs illegal and has spent a lot of money funding those who want to keep it illegal.

Legalising drugs cuts the legs from under all organised crime. Money goes to the taxpayer for health and education.

Any suggestion that drug use will explode is simple nonsense as anyone who wants drugs today can get them.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 10:00PM

mikom wrote: »

A cannabis scenario for you.

You wish to ingest cannabis.
You have no cannabis.
Do you cultivate it yourself, thus maneuvering around the organised crime element?
Or do you buy it from a dealer?

Before you answer please check up on the penalties for simple possession and the penalties for cultivation.
Would you take a punt on the difference.

Firstly , I do not like ingesting.
Secondly I am aware of the penalties of possession and the penalties for cultivation.

I am all for legalising drugs, I am looking for someone to tell me why they are still willing to purchase from a drug dealer?

Forget about the need for debate and a change in the archaic laws of the country I am still trying to get my head round the vast numbers of people who put their own personal needs before the unquestionable moral aspect of funding drug dealers.

Boombastic · 18-11-2012 10:00PM

MagicSean wrote: »

Cannabis is not something you need. It is a luxury. If you don't wish to contribute to crime then simply don't buy it. Simple really.

But if I grow my own, I am not contributing to crime, but am a criminal for gardening

Fair play to the Gardai involved, it only took them 50 odd years to cop on to this. I wonder has it anything to do with America's vote last week to legalise it in two states (even though this is just a cloak because it is used for medicinal purposes in many states)...where America goes we must follow, cos they know best:rolleyes:

Why are the penalties for cultivating 1 or 2 plants usually stiffer than being caught with a couple of ounces of kilos?

Yamanoto · 18-11-2012 10:02PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Why is it not going to happen?

Human nature, that's why.

It does not follow that we always make the right decisions, simply because we possess the capacity to do so. But that's pointing out the bleedin' obvious tbh - you know this.

You can implore teenage girls to quit getting pregnant, the lads to take a wee break from glassing each other in the face or fifty-something blokes to forego that last tasty tipple at the Golf club prior to heading home. But folks will continue to engage in myriad patterns of behaviour which may impact themselves and society at large in a negative fashion. These problems are complex, refractory and worth real consideration - which is why the glib line you're pursuing is more than somewhat pointless in the context of the discussion.

mikom · 18-11-2012 10:03PM

Spiritual wrote: »

Firstly , I do not like ingesting.
Secondly I am aware of the penalties of possession and the penalties for cultivation.

I am all for legalising drugs, I am looking for someone to tell me why they are still willing to purchase from a drug dealer?

Forget about the need for debate and a change in the archaic laws of the country I am still trying to get my head round the vast numbers of people who put their own personal needs before the unquestionable moral aspect of funding drug dealers.

Really, well I am still trying to get my head round the vast numbers of people who put their own personal herbicide needs before the unquestionable moral aspect of funding Monsanto.

By the way, you do know what ingestion is?

120_Minutes · 18-11-2012 10:04PM

Spiritual wrote: »

I am still trying to get my head round the vast numbers of people who put their own personal needs before the unquestionable moral aspect of funding drug dealers.

I see what you're trying to get at, and i'm gonna go ahead and say it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc14gU-OSMM

mikom · 18-11-2012 10:06PM

120_Minutes wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hc14gU-OSMM

Primal scream of a post.

Spiritual · 18-11-2012 10:07PM

Piliger wrote: »

The ones who are most vocal ? That is nonsense. Most people who support legalisation are not drug users. I have never even smoked, and don't drink.

Not at my dinner parties. I can only be representative of what I know.

Legalising drugs cuts the legs from under all organised crime. Money goes to the taxpayer for health and education.

Totally agree.

Any suggestion that drug use will explode is simple nonsense as anyone who wants drugs today can get them.

Never suggested it.

Garda now admit state has lost war on drugs

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