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Top Hamas Military leader killed - Israel/Hamas on the brink of War??

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Comments

  • #62
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Einhard wrote: »
    Obviously the death of any child (or, for that matter, any civilian) in such a manner is tragic, but I think that any reasonable person would have to concede that Israel didn't set out to kill this child, or any other civilians in this instance. Whereas the policy of Hamas is to murder Israeli citizens, and the more the better. It's entirely disingenuous therefore, to claim that Hamas' targeting of apartment blocks is morally equivalent to Israel's taking out of this guy.

    That's not to say that israel is blameless. Obviously not. She bears a large proportion of the responsibility for the situation in the region. But I don't think it's reasonable to state that, because Israel acted badly in one instance she must always then be acting in the same manner.

    If Hamas care so much for their own people, why do they fire rockets from populated centres, and then hide amongst civilians, knowing full well the Israeli response?
    Israel routinely blow up civilians in these strikes, it is not an 'accident'; they use missiles which they know have a high chance of killing other people as well.

    Their 'collateral damage' is just as much murder, as Hamas's rocket attacks; same way the US drone strikes 'collateral damage' is just as good as murder.

    Neither Israel or the US give a toss about these civilian casualties, because they do nothing to prevent them, and are perfectly happy to continue doing strikes, knowing they will kill civilians.

    The effect of their actions, make them as much 'terrorists' as anyone else; the only difference in media discourse, is 'terrorist' usually means "brown muslim people that keeping getting in the way of our missiles".


  • #63
    death1234567
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,365 ✭✭✭death1234567


    Hamas and Israel on the brink of all out war spilling over into neighbouring middle east countries? sleep.png
    This happens 2-3 times a year, nothing new to see here.


  • #64
    blahfckingblah
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,666 ✭✭✭blahfckingblah


    one of the most sickening things is the US coming out in support of almost every Israeli attack


  • #65
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    one of the most sickening things is the US coming out in support of almost every Israeli attack

    Russia has ironically condemned Israel for 'disproportionality' of reprisals. This is ironic of course given Russia's own direct antics themselves in Chechnya, Georgia and elsewhere in Caucasus region.

    There are outside interests on both sides of the conflict.


  • #66
    Eggy Baby!
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,142 ✭✭✭Eggy Baby!


    Siuin wrote: »
    Israel has been bombarded particularly heavily in recent months- do people seriously think that Israel should sit back and twiddle their thumbs while their entire southern population is being continually fired upon and in a state of fear, sitting in bomb shelters on an almost daily basis? Ffs- any other country and there would be complete outrage. Good riddance to the terrorist they killed- may it be a warning to the rest of the cowards targeting innocent civilians.

    Needless to say, you could substitute "Israel" for "Gaza" in this sentence and it would be even more relevant.
    If Hamas care so much for their own people, why do they fire rockets from populated centres, and then hide amongst civilians, knowing full well the Israeli response?

    I don't agree with their actions but do you honestly expect Hamas to go toe to toe with a military power subsidised by the United States?


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  • #67
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,323 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    Needless to say, you could substitute "Israel" for "Gaza" in this sentence and it would be even more relevant.
    Remind me, did Israel just starting bombing the Gaza strip for fun?

    Or did they only begin to retaliate against Gaza AFTER it was taken over by Hamas, and the latter began attacking Israel?

    https://u24.gov.ua/
    Join NAFO today:

    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • #68
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    wes wrote: »
    And you would be wrong:

    Reports of three killed in rocket attack in south Israel
    And of course, they are ambiguous in the title of who exactly was killed- if we were talking about Gazans, you can be assured that it would be blazed across the headlines
    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    Needless to say, you could substitute "Israel" for "Gaza" in this sentence and it would be even more relevant.
    Well no, not at all, seeing as how Israel is not targetting innocent civilians and has not been continually firing upon Gaza.
    Eggy Baby! wrote: »
    I don't agree with their actions but do you honestly expect Hamas to go toe to toe with a military power subsidised by the United States?
    I expect sweet fúck all from Hamas because they're a terrorist organisation and they wouldn't understand compromise or peaceful protest if it slapped them across the face. This isn't about the US or attaining rights, it's about a bunch of terrorists who wish to annihilate Israel-- a fact they've made very clear in their official government charter.
    Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
    [Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad [...]

    Article Seven: The Universality of Hamas
    [...]     The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).
    http://www.thejerusalemfund.org/www.thejerusalemfund.org/carryover/documents/charter.html


  • #69
    Fits Morris
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 243 ✭✭Fits Morris


    blahfckingblah wrote: »
    one of the most sickening things is the US coming out in support of almost every Israeli attack

    If the Israelis nuked Gaza, the US would still support them.


  • #70
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Siuin wrote: »
    And of course, they are ambiguous in the title of who exactly was killed- if we were talking about Gazans, you can be assured that it would be blazed across the headlines

    So you change the goal posts, after being shown to be wrong, and complain about the head line now.....

    Here is the first paragraph:
    Three people were killed in southern Israel by rockets which Israeli media said were fired from Gaza.

    So, in the first paragraph they tell you exactly who has died. Sorry, but your complaint is really rather silly imho.

    BTW, the head line has been updated and is now:
    14 killed in Israel-Gaza violence

    So, your shown to be wrong again, as they still don't go into detail of who was killed in the head line, even now that there including the Palestinians killed in the figure now.
    Siuin wrote: »
    a fact they've made very clear in their official government charter.

    Which was dropped back in 2006:

    Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

    Your document dates from 1988. So unless they released a new document backing out of there previous statement, then I think it fair to say your claim is out of date.


  • #71
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    SeanW wrote: »
    Remind me, did Israel just starting bombing the Gaza strip for fun?

    Or did they only begin to retaliate against Gaza AFTER it was taken over by Hamas, and the latter began attacking Israel?

    Didn't Israel collude with Fatah to over throw Hamas before they took over Gaza? You can keep going back and back further on who started what till the cows come home. Neither Israel nor Hamas are innocent in this imho.


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  • #72
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    wes wrote: »
    So, in the first paragraph they tell you exactly who has died. Sorry, but your complaint is really rather silly imho.
    No they don't- they don't specifically say 'Israelis' - you can be damn sure if it was Arabs, they'd have 'Palestinians killed' blazed across the headline. Need I remind you that there are Arabs and Palestinians living in the south of Israel too. "14 killed in Israel-Gaza violence" could easily be taken as 14 Arabs.
    wes wrote: »
    Which was dropped back in 2006:

    Hamas drops call for destruction of Israel from manifesto

    Your document dates from 1988. So unless they released a new document backing out of there previous statement, then I think it fair to say your claim is out of date.
    My point is that Hamas aren't seeking peace or the use of negotiaton in order to achieve their aims- if you care to read the rest of that article you'll see;
    But the manifesto continues to emphasise the armed struggle. "Our nation is at a stage of national liberation, and it has the right to act to regain its rights and end the occupation by using all means, including armed resistance," it says.


  • #73
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    ..............


    Well no, not at all, seeing as how Israel is not targetting innocent civilians and has not been continually firing upon Gaza.


    ...bit odd they've managed to kill over 70 civillians this year so far. Bit odd they're shooting kids out playing football like Ahmad Abu Daqqa.


  • #74
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    .......

    My point is that Hamas aren't seeking peace or the use of negotiaton in order to achieve their aims- if you care to read the rest of that article you'll see;


    You'll be able to point out then, the benefits that have accrued to Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for following the peaceful path.


  • #75
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Nodin wrote: »
    You'll be able to point out then, the benefits that have accrued to Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for following the peaceful path.
    So you'd rather they resort to violence as a way of solving their problems...?? Tad militant, eh Nodin? Rockets have the sole purpose of terrorising citizens- they have no benefits and solve absolutely nothing.
    Nodin wrote: »
    ...bit odd they've managed to kill over 70 civillians this year so far. Bit odd they're shooting kids out playing football like Ahmad Abu Daqqa.
    Do you have any reputable sources regarding this incident (ie not from a blog/ anti-Israeli website)? The IDF doesn't just shoot without reason- there's a very strict policy on how to approach these things, and I have a very strong feeling that I'm not getting the whole story here.


  • #76
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Siuin wrote: »
    No they don't- they don't specifically say 'Israelis' - you can be damn sure if it was Arabs, they'd have 'Palestinians killed' blazed across the headline. Need I remind you that there are Arabs and Palestinians living in the south of Israel too. "14 killed in Israel-Gaza violence" could easily be taken as 14 Arabs.

    FFS, they go into detail in the article itself. Again, you moved the goal posts claiming it wouldn't be reported, and now complaining about the head line. You are just looking for something to be annoyed about.
    Siuin wrote: »
    My point is that Hamas aren't seeking peace or the use of negotiaton in order to achieve their aims- if you care to read the rest of that article you'll see;

    Which makes them no different then the Israeli government, with characters like Netanyahu and Lieberman, who are in no way serious about peace (proof being violent settlement expansion in the West Bank, despite the PA acting peaceful and actively working with Israel to stop violence, and receiving nothing but violent expansion in return from Israel.). So again, there as bad as one another imho.


  • #77
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Siuin wrote: »
    So you'd rather they resort to violence as a way of solving their problems...?? Tad militant, eh Nodin? Rockets have the sole purpose of terrorising citizens- they have no benefits and solve absolutely nothing. .

    Again - What benefits have accrued to Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for following the peaceful path?
    Siuin wrote: »
    Do you have any reputable sources regarding this incident (ie not from a blog/ anti-Israeli website)? The IDF doesn't just shoot without reason- there's a very strict policy on how to approach these things, and I have a very strong feeling that I'm not getting the whole story here.

    I've no independent source for the story of the child, but I suspect none would be found good enough in any instance.

    For the overall totals...
    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_protection_of_civilians_weekly_report_2012_11_09_english.pdf


  • #78
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Nodin wrote: »

    Again - What benefits have accrued to Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for following the peaceful path?

    A higher standard of living for their people.


  • #79
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    no way to confirm what this man is saying dont shoot the messenger and all that am just sharing the article...

    An Israeli peace activist who has been instrumental in talks with Hamas in the past said Thursday that Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm by assassinating Gaza military chief Ahem Jabari a day earlier.

    Gershon Baskin, the founder and former co-director of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, told the Times of Israel that Jabari was just hours from giving his okay to a long-term ceasefire with Israel when a car he was riding in was blown up by Israeli forces, marking the start of Operation Pillar of Defense.

    “This is complete and total insanity,” said Baskin, who has been in continuous contact with senior members of Hamas — although never directly with Jabari – over the past six years. ”We are on the road to reoccupying Gaza.”
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/jabari-supported-ceasefire-with-israel-claims-israeli-who-negotiated-with-hamas/?

    Something similar being reported in another paper referring to Jabari as a "subcontractor in charge of maintaining Israels security in Gaza"

    Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886#

    Hamas rule out any talk of a truce for now
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Nov-15/195163-hamas-rejects-talk-of-truce-with-israel-for-now.ashx?#axzz2CDrufayE

    Rocket explodes southern Tel Aviv no injuries
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Nov-15/195164-gaza-rocket-explodes-south-of-tel-aviv-no-injuries-israeli-army.ashx?#axzz2CDrufayE


  • #80
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Nodin wrote: »
    .....you might tell that to your pals in the IDF.
    They already know very well.
    Again - What benefits have accrued to Abbas and Fatah in the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem for following the peaceful path?
    A better relationship with Israel, higher esteem among the international community, a vast degree of authority over the West Bank.
    And again- are you advocating violence against civilians as a legitimate means of solving their problems?
    I've no independent source for the story of the child, but I suspect none would be found good enough in any instance.

    For the overall totals...
    http://www.ochaopt.org/documents/ocha_opt_protection_of_civilians_weekly_report_2012_11_09_english.pdf
    Totals are no good- they don't give the context or the background. It's very easy to say "oh yeah, he died!" but the fact is, we don't know what gave rise to that incident and therefore it's impossible to comment on it fairly.


  • #81
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    A higher standard of living for their people.

    A higher standard of living than Gaza, isn't exactly something to call home about. There conditions are still appalling in the West Bank btw:

    Israelis get four-fifths of scarce West Bank water, says World Bank

    Just one example of the "higher" standard of living.......


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  • #82
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,280 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    WakeUp wrote: »
    no way to confirm what this man is saying dont shoot the messenger and all that am just sharing the article...

    An Israeli peace activist who has been instrumental in talks with Hamas in the past said Thursday that Israel may have destroyed its only chance for calm by assassinating Gaza military chief Ahem Jabari a day earlier.

    Gershon Baskin, the founder and former co-director of the Israel/Palestine Center for Research and Information, told the Times of Israel that Jabari was just hours from giving his okay to a long-term ceasefire with Israel when a car he was riding in was blown up by Israeli forces, marking the start of Operation Pillar of Defense.

    “This is complete and total insanity,” said Baskin, who has been in continuous contact with senior members of Hamas — although never directly with Jabari – over the past six years. ”We are on the road to reoccupying Gaza.”
    http://www.timesofisrael.com/jabari-supported-ceasefire-with-israel-claims-israeli-who-negotiated-with-hamas/?

    Something similar being reported in another paper referring to Jabari as a "subcontractor in charge of maintaining Israels security in Gaza"

    Ahmed Jabari was a subcontractor, in charge of maintaining Israel's security in Gaza. This title will no doubt sound absurd to anyone who in the past several hours has heard Jabari described as "an arch-terrorist," "the terror chief of staff" or "our Bin Laden."
    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-killed-its-subcontractor-in-gaza.premium-1.477886#

    Hamas rule out any talk of a truce for now
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Nov-15/195163-hamas-rejects-talk-of-truce-with-israel-for-now.ashx?#axzz2CDrufayE

    Rocket explodes southern Tel Aviv no injuries
    http://www.dailystar.com.lb/News/Middle-East/2012/Nov-15/195164-gaza-rocket-explodes-south-of-tel-aviv-no-injuries-israeli-army.ashx?#axzz2CDrufayE

    Do the Israeli's really even want peace? Their actions indicate that they don't. We know how this will play out anyway...the IDF will flatten block after block of buildings and hospitals in Gaza in retaliation for a Hamas rocket landing in a field or something, conflict will end...people in Gaza suffer, blockade continues... Israeli farmer fills in the hole in his field.


  • #83
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Siuin wrote: »
    A better relationship with Israel,

    Lieberman was threatening to get rid of the PA, for them going to the UN. Not much a relationship, were any kind of peaceful resistance, is met with violence and threats of more violence.
    Siuin wrote: »
    higher esteem among the international community,

    The international community hasn't done a single thing about the illegal settlements, and are quite frankly hypocrites, who have done little or nothing for the PA. A few words of condemnation are utterly worthless, and the sum total of the what the international community has done for the PA.
    Siuin wrote: »
    a vast degree of authority over the West Bank.

    Your joking right? They have very little authority in the West Bank. Settlers only roads, most of the water being stolen by settlers, not being able to build in most of the West Bank, and no control at all over the largest area of the West Bank (area c) and minimal authority elsewhere. Then there is the constant violent settlement expansion, which Israel refuses to stop, no matter what the Palestinians do. Israel just keep taking more and more, and refuse to stop its violence no matter what.


  • #84
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    This bullshit of blaming Palestinian militants for civilian deaths by 'hiding' amongst them is the height of 'black and white' (lack of) thought and is incredibly naive.

    What do those who accuse Palestinian militants of hiding amongst the population propose they do? Stand out in the open with rifles and be torn to shreds by multi-million dollar man-mincing helicopters?

    FGS get some sort of understanding of asymmetric warfare before banging on about the issue.

    So, let me get this straight. When Israel targets a rocket launch site and kills civilians because the site is deliberately located in a civilian area, the militants who placed it there bear no responsibilty? Come off it. That's taking abdication of responsibility to an absurd level. Why not just come out and state that israel is always to blame. For everything. It'd be easier.
    KyussBishop wrote: »
    Israel routinely blow up civilians in these strikes, it is not an 'accident'; they use missiles which they know have a high chance of killing other people as well.

    All missiles fired into built up areas have a high chance of killing civilians. That's far different from claiming that a nation is deliberately targeting civilians for murder. I don't believe that Israel does so- I mean, what could they possibly gain from doing so? It would run entirely counter to their own interests.
    Their 'collateral damage' is just as much murder, as Hamas's rocket attacks;
    same way the US drone strikes 'collateral damage' is just as good as murder.

    No...it's not. Hamas and others deliberately target civilians, just as the IRA did. There's a massive difference between that and US and Israeli strikes against militants. It's odd that you can't seem to see that.
    Neither Israel or the US give a toss about these civilian casualties, because
    they do nothing to prevent them, and are perfectly happy to continue
    doing strikes, knowing they will kill civilians.

    What exactly do you propose they do. In Pakistan, there are people quite openly planning terror attacks on American soil, and against American interests worldwide. They plan massacres against people like you and me and their fellow Muslims. They revel in death and destruction, and care not for who gets caught in the onslaught. Witness 9/11. Witness Madrid. For a variety of reasons, America can't touch these militants through conentional means. So the option comes down to a) letting them away unmolested to continue their planning, or b) taking them out, and risking civilian casualties. You seem to think that a) is the option that should be taken. Frankly, I'm glad then that you're not in charge because were you, the world would a more dangerous place. There is a war going on, yet you would have one side fight with both hands behind their backs. Can you please explain how the US or Israel should take out these militants planning the death of their citizens, and even the elimination of their states? Because, unless you can, you're just living in cloud cuckoo land.
    The effect of their actions, make them as much 'terrorists' as anyone else; the
    only difference in media discourse, is 'terrorist' usually means "brown muslim
    people that keeping getting in the way of our missiles".

    Your exposure to the media seems to be very limited if you think that.


  • #85
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,280 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    If you look past the parties involved in the fighting and just look at the situation the whole thing is sorry state of affairs and there doesn't seem to be any end in sight.


  • #86
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Einhard wrote: »
    b) taking them out, and risking civilian casualties.

    Your joking right? The US has attacked rescue workers deliberately, several times:

    US drone strikes target rescuers in Pakistan – and the west stays silent

    The tactic that the US uses, is something which they have called terrorism, when someone else has done it. So by there own standards they are themselves terrorists.

    Both Israel and US, are full of crap when they make claims about not attacking civilians. Far to many examples of them doing exactly that.

    FFS, during Operation Cast Lead, the IDF used Human Shields, something which when someone else does it, there a terrorist. Sorry, but this is just typical double standard imho. When the US or Israel does something its not terrorism, but when its the other guy, well there terrorists. Either both are, or none are.


  • #87
    KyussBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,797 ✭✭✭KyussBishop


    Einhard wrote: »
    All missiles fired into built up areas have a high chance of killing civilians. That's far different from claiming that a nation is deliberately targeting civilians for murder. I don't believe that Israel does so- I mean, what could they possibly gain from doing so? It would run entirely counter to their own interests.
    It does not run counter to their interests at all; Israel are in the midsts of ethnically cleansing the Palestinian territories, so that they can be slowly annexed.

    A couple of the first links after a quick Google:
    http://mondoweiss.net/2011/04/the-documented-record-still-stands-israel-intentionally-targets-civilians-and-civilian-infrastructure.html
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/jan/20/gaza-israelandthepalestinians

    So yes, Israel deliberately targets civilians.
    Einhard wrote: »
    No...it's not. Hamas and others deliberately target civilians, just as the IRA did. There's a massive difference between that and US and Israeli strikes against militants. It's odd that you can't seem to see that.
    It is a conscious choice to pick a policy that definitely will result in significant deaths of innocent civilians, and which terrorizes people in the area, and which is completely unnecessary and avoidable; that is nothing short of murder so far as I'm concerned, and I consider apologist arguments regarding that a defense of the same.
    Einhard wrote: »
    What exactly do you propose they do. In Pakistan, there are people quite openly planning terror attacks on American soil, and against American interests worldwide. They plan massacres against people like you and me and their fellow Muslims. They revel in death and destruction, and care not for who gets caught in the onslaught. Witness 9/11. Witness Madrid. For a variety of reasons, America can't touch these militants through conentional means. So the option comes down to a) letting them away unmolested to continue their planning, or b) taking them out, and risking civilian casualties. You seem to think that a) is the option that should be taken. Frankly, I'm glad then that you're not in charge because were you, the world would a more dangerous place. There is a war going on, yet you would have one side fight with both hands behind their backs. Can you please explain how the US or Israel should take out these militants planning the death of their citizens, and even the elimination of their states? Because, unless you can, you're just living in cloud cuckoo land.
    How about, not murdering civilians, whose family members then want to go to war against the US because their relatives have been murdered?

    How about ending the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians, so people don't want to go to war against Israel and the US, such as those motivated by this in the 9/11 attacks?

    The US massacres people on a regular basis, no differently to any of these terrorists, and they "care not for who gets caught in the onslaught"; your an apologist for murder effectively, because you think the US/Israel have to 'do something' to protect themselves, and that just happens to involve massive civilian deaths, therefore that's ok.
    Einhard wrote: »
    Your exposure to the media seems to be very limited if you think that.
    What's your definition of a terrorist then? Would you call blowing up a funeral terrorism? Seems a lot like an indiscriminate act, targeting completely innocent civilians, to me.


  • #88
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    wes wrote: »
    Your joking right? The US has attacked rescue workers deliberately, several times:

    US drone strikes target rescuers in Pakistan – and the west stays silent

    The tactic that the US uses, is something which they have called terrorism, when someone else has done it. So by there own standards they are themselves terrorists.

    If true, hitting the rescue workers is disgusting. Anything offical from the US over these double tap strikes? In some reports 99% of drone victims are innocents, in other reports 80% are militants - proper info is damn hard to get on this subject.


  • #89
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Jonny7 wrote: »
    If true, hitting the rescue workers is disgusting. Anything offical from the US over these double tap strikes? In some reports 99% of drone victims are innocents, in other reports 80% are militants - proper info is damn hard to get on this subject.

    Basically, the US change the definition of who is a militant and hence why you see such a huge disparity in numbers:
    Secret ‘Kill List’ Proves a Test of Obama’s Principles and Will

    --SNIP--
    It is also because Mr. Obama embraced a disputed method for counting civilian casualties that did little to box him in. It in effect counts all military-age males in a strike zone as combatants, according to several administration officials, unless there is explicit intelligence posthumously proving them innocent.
    --SNIP--

    So basically guilty until proven otherwise, is there policy.


  • #90
    Jonny7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,696 ✭✭✭Jonny7


    wes wrote: »
    Basically, the US change the definition of who is a militant and hence why you see such a huge disparity in numbers:

    If it's true, then the US military, as a policy, as a doctrine, is specifically murdering rescue workers.

    It doesn't wash, that doesn't make any military sense.

    If it's not that, then it has to be rogue operators. Soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan have murdered civilians (Haditha, Robert Bales, etc). However drone operators are strictly monitored, their actions are recorded. It would be very difficult for them to get away with it, this would have to go fairly far up the chain (which should equal policy or doctrine)

    The only other explanation, is that it's distorted propaganda.

    There is a UN investigation starting in a few months over this, we shall see whether its holds water. If the latter, then that will be extremely disturbing and the UN investigation will draw a lot of light onto the subject.


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  • #91
    southsiderosie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,565 ✭✭✭southsiderosie


    MOD NOTE:

    Do not post photos of attack victims in threads. If you think that these kinds of photos support or add to your point, then provide a link with an explicit warning.


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