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Top Hamas Military leader killed - Israel/Hamas on the brink of War??

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Comments

  • #32
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    JustinDee wrote: »
    An incursion operation. Quick shot at Gaza for targets such as today's then back out again, shutting up shop.
    For the reasons I gave. Weaker Syria and upcoming populism requirements. Iran's stretch into the area also weaker as now limited to Hizbullah. Also, given that Hamas leadership have bolted from Syria, they are now more traceable.

    I don't know what you mean by full-scale war though. Hizbullah? Egypt? Iran? Russia and US poking using their proxies against each other in region in augmented fashion?

    I think middle eastern dynamics have changed since the Arab spring the two wild cards being Egypt and Iran. Will be interesting to see how Mursi reacts in Egypt so far he has recalled his ambassador and called for an emergency UNSC meeting. The arab league are meeting too. Egypt has stuck to the peace agreement signed with Israel in 79 will Mursi use this as an excuse to tear it up I dont know, probably not I would think I dont see what he has to gain by doing so, but since coming to power he has made some strongly worded statements something Egypt hasnt done in a long time.

    There is an internal power struggle taking place within the leadership of Hamas. Like you said when exiled leaders of Hamas , came out against Assad they were forced to leave Syria which in turn strained relations with Iran.

    The Hamas leaders inside Gaza are of the opinion that they are the legitimate leadership and should be calling the shots not the leaders in exile as has been the case over the years. Basically its an attempted power grab by them which when you think about it probably makes the most sense as they know exactly what will happen if they let rockets be fired toward Israel daily. They will be hammered in return at some point. They want to show that its them resisting the occupation and not the leaders outside the Gaza strip. Will the Iranians and Syrians now start backing the fighters inside Gaza more directly? its possible. I think theres a massive chance of miscalculation happening on both sides though its impossible to predict the outcome or what is to come. Its a very dangerous situation for all concerned and the region at large that much Im sure of.


  • #33
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Koda Red Stepson wrote: »
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

    Kemp wrote the report for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA).

    You'll note that the JCPA:
    is a pro-Israel organisation, promoting a positive image of Israel, advocating Israels right to exist and fighting anti-semitism. It advocates the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem and its lasting control of the West Bank and Golan Heights. It opposes a unilateral Palestinian drive toward statehood

    (My emphasis).

    Kemp's 'report' (ramblings) seems like a cynical and deliberate attempt to undermine the Goldstone Report. It seems the JCPA are little more than a propaganda tool for far right Israeli policy.

    Kemp appears to be a good friend of the Israeli right.


  • #34
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    WakeUp wrote: »
    I think middle eastern dynamics have changed since the Arab spring the two wild cards being Egypt and Iran. Will be interesting to see how Mursi reacts in Egypt so far he has recalled his ambassador and called for an emergency UNSC meeting. The arab league are meeting too. Egypt has stuck to the peace agreement signed with Israel in 79 will Mursi use this as an excuse to tear it up I dont know, probably not I would think I dont see what he has to gain by doing so, but since coming to power he has made some strongly worded statements something Egypt hasnt done in a long time.

    Egypt will huff and puff but in the end they won't do much at all. They've been losing face in the arab world in comparison to Saudi Arabia and Qatar over the latters support for the Syrian rebels, they Egyptians may see a show of support for Hamas as a way to gain face in "the arab street" but they won't do anything militarily because they know the Israelis would make mincemeat of them.
    There is an internal power struggle taking place within the leadership of Hamas. Like you said when exiled leaders of Hamas , came out against Assad they were forced to leave Syria which in turn strained relations with Iran.

    Hamas are probably at their weakest in political terms but taking on Israel as a way to grab legitimacy is like trying to play chicken with a Mack truck.
    The Hamas leaders inside Gaza are of the opinion that they are the legitimate leadership and should be calling the shots not the leaders in exile as has been the case over the years. Basically its an attempted power grab by them which when you think about it probably makes the most sense as they know exactly what will happen if they let rockets be fired toward Israel daily. They will be hammered in return at some point. They want to show that its them resisting the occupation and not the leaders outside the Gaza strip. Will the Iranians and Syrians now start backing the fighters inside Gaza more directly? its possible. I think theres a massive chance of miscalculation happening on both sides though its impossible to predict the outcome or what is to come. Its a very dangerous situation for all concerned and the region at large that much Im sure of.

    The Hamas leadership in Gaza may find that their leadership group is a lot smaller in a few days time than it was when they started firing volleys of rockets a few days ago.

    I don't see the Syrians doing too much, we've seen some spillover from the Syrian revolution in the Golan front but the IDF will brutally put down any serious moves by the Syrians. Hamas and Iran have had a problematic relationship in the last year or so because of Hamas refusal to support Assad, whether they will reconcile because of these attacks is unknown. Hezbollah is in a problematic position as well because of the problems in Syria and I'd say Hezbollah need a confrontation with Israel like they need a hole in the head but I guess we'll see what happens in a few days time.


  • #35
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,329 ✭✭✭SeanW


    GRMA wrote: »
    No.

    Is the other poster justifying this?

    <mod snip>
    Are you suggesting that the Israelis set out specifically to kill a child?

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    Help us in helping Ukraine.



  • #36
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Including this link to a chap called Harry Fear its a live link from inside Gaza. He is saying the Israeli airforce are dropping leaflets and that a ground invasion is imminent. Bombs are still dropping.

    http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud


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  • #37
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SeanW wrote: »
    Are you suggesting that the Israelis set out specifically to kill a child?
    Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2102081.stm

    Do you honestly think Israel cares about killing children? If they did they wouldn't kill so many of them surely?


  • #38
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,594 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    OF course the Israeli's don't care about collateral damage, neither side do. As long as they get their man they don't care how many are taken out near him.

    This conflict is so depressing, and I have really had my fill of it. Plus I hate the picking sides that we do especially in N.Ireland.

    I can't ever see an end to it all, as neither side is willing to give an inch. FFS even NI got its act together after many years fighting. Everyone realised no-one was winning, but these dumb asses can seem to see this. Its tit-for-tat that will continue for decades to come.

    I shed no tears for the Hamas leader, but I do for that poor little infant.


  • #39
    SeanW
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,329 ✭✭✭SeanW


    It's a very wild claim that the Israeli government specifically had this little guy on their "hit list" I suspect he (or she?) was an accidental kill. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I suspect the post I quoted was little more than a wild stab at making a "pleeeeeeease think of the children" argument.

    Consider: Israel has, to its Southwestern edge, a statelet ruled by Hamas (whos charter BTW very specifically states that their objective is to kill Jews). Said state continuously fires rockets into Israel so as to keep the people of Southern Israel in a state of permanent terror.
    Hamas have made it clear time and time again that they do not want a peaceful resolution to their dispute. They want the Jews dead. They won't settle for anything less than blood.

    What, in your view, should the Israelis do? (Other than jumping into the sea to save their neighbors the trouble?)

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  • #40
    NIMAN
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,594 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    "On the brink of war"

    ???

    So what have they been doing all these years? Playing games?


  • #41
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    Am not sure how many of yous are following that Harry dudes link but the building either next door or across the street has just been bombed the room he is reporting in shook. A few mins ago he said Egyptian tanks are currently moving into the Sinai. Things are starting to move fast.


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  • #42
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    WakeUp wrote: »
    Am not sure how many of yous are following that Harry dudes link but the building either next door or across the street has just been bombed the room he is reporting in shook. A few mins ago he said Egyptian tanks are currently moving into the Sinai. Things are starting to move fast.

    Egyptian tanks were already in the Sinai, that isn't new news. They've been there for a while to deal with militants in the Sinai.


  • #43
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SeanW wrote: »
    It's a very wild claim that the Israeli government specifically had this little guy on their "hit list" I suspect he (or she?) was an accidental kill. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I suspect the post I quoted was little more than a wild stab at making a "pleeeeeeease think of the children" argument.
    To think of the children argument is appropriate as we should think of the children when they are being murdered in war crimes ...or tortured, used as human shields, intentionally starved through blockades etc
    SeanW wrote: »
    Consider: Israel has, to its Southwestern edge, a statelet ruled by Hamas (whos charter BTW very specifically states that their objective is to kill Jews). Said state continuously fires rockets into Israel so as to keep the people of Southern Israel in a state of permanent terror.
    It's resistance to a brutal occupation.
    SeanW wrote: »
    Hamas have made it clear time and time again that they do not want a peaceful resolution to their dispute. They want the Jews dead. They won't settle for anything less than blood.
    Other than renouncing terrorism for the 67 borders of course.



    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4162912,00.html
    SeanW wrote: »
    What, in your view, should the Israelis do? (Other than jumping into the sea to save their neighbors the trouble?
    Are you serious? Gaza was predicted by the UN to be uninhabitable by 2020. I suppose Castlead II and a repeat of the systemathic destruction of the civilian infrastructure would accelerate this even further.

    What I would like Israel to do is end the occupation and work out a fair settlement with the Palestinians and somehow manage to control themselves and stop applying the Dahiya Doctrine every couple of years creating piles of corpses and misery to innocent people.


  • #44
    BlaasForRafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,020 ✭✭✭BlaasForRafa


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    To think of the children argument is appropriate as we should think of the children when they are being murdered in war crimes ...or tortured, used as human shields,.

    I agree, Hamas should stop using children as human shields, indeed they should stop using all civilians in Gaza as human shields and also stop hiding their rockets in civilian areas.

    If Hamas thought more of their own civilians then perhaps they'd put them in less danger. Its an unfortunate truth that dead children are often more useful to Hamas in propoganda terms than any gunman or suicide bomber.


  • #45
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    BlaasForRafa wrote: »
    I agree, Hamas should stop using children as human shields, indeed they should stop using all civilians in Gaza as human shields and also stop hiding their rockets in civilian areas.
    Everyone should stop using human shields of any description, including Israel. Do you disagree? Can you even say "Israel should stop using human shields"?


  • #46
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,884 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Interesting days we live in, the two sides can now taunt each other on Twitter.


    A7r7zi9CMAEPPhy.png
    KenSwee wrote: »
    Those pilots have committed a war crime either way today.

    Under which paragraph of which international treaty?

    Looking at the video, they hit their target directly with a weapon no larger than that required to do the job. Seems about as clear-cut as a strike can ever be.


  • #47
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/national/3067-nov-29-a-day-for-all-palestinians

    PNN

    On Monday 12th November, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas informed the Arab League's foreign ministers that the Palestinian Authority will submit its status upgrade bid to UN on November 29.

    PA is seeking to convince the United Nations General Assembly upgrade the PA's status from "observer" to a "non-member state." and said that the support of the Arab League is also needed.

    Abbas told the pan-Arab organisations ministers during a Cairo meeting, "We agreed to go get the vote on November 29. The majority needed for the vote will be on our side."

    The Palestinians require a 193-members majority vote in the General Assembly for their bid to be successful.

    Abbas confirmed that after the bid is granted, he's willing to resume peace negotiations with Israel. Yet, Abbas criticized Israel's continued settlement construction.

    He said, "We want the world to understand that Palestinian lands are under occupation and that the settlements won't change that fact."


    I'm pretty sure that Palestine getting a status upgrade would not be to Israel's liking as they would then have to recognize their treatment of palestinians and potentially have to start treating them like human beings....no that won't do, lets kick some sh1t off and make sure the UN is too busy trying to put out fires to deal with this vote effectively, and if they can undermine support for the PA in the meantime, why not....
    Not to say that the vote would necessarily suit Hamas either, but maybe that is why they have been poking the big Jewbear:mad:


  • #48
    KenSwee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 520 ✭✭✭KenSwee


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Interesting days we live in, the two sides can now taunt each other on Twitter.


    A7r7zi9CMAEPPhy.png



    Under which paragraph of which international treaty?

    Looking at the video, they hit their target directly with a weapon no larger than that required to do the job. Seems about as clear-cut as a strike can ever be.


    A bullet to the head is clear cut.
    A bloody missile is not. Ask the innocent dead.


  • #49
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4305658,00.html
    3 killed by rocket fire in Kiryat Malachi

    Three people die when rockets hit southern city. Palestinians report three killed in IDF strike in Khan Younis. Security Council meeting ends without resolution
    Ynet reporters
    Latest Update: 11.15.12, 09:14 / Israel News
    Gaza's terror groups continued to fire rockets on Israel's south overnight and early on Thursday. Three people – two women and a man – were killed in the morning when a rocket hit a building in the city of Kiryat Malachi.

    A 4-year-old boy was moderately hurt and was taken to the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon for treatment. A 1-year-old girl and another infant sustained light injuries and were taken to the Kaplan Medical Center. The girl's father was lightly hurt as well. Ten people suffered panic attacks. Another building in the city was directly hit, but no injuries were reported. Hamas' military wing accepted responsibility for the attacks.

    Meanwhile, a rocket barrage targeted Ashdod, with one projectile hitting a home but failing to cause casualties. A school in Ofakim was also hit. Salvos targeted Beersheba, Ashkelon and Gan Yavne as well. Some of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system.[...]


    RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
    No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:


  • #50
    Red Crow
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,139 ✭✭✭Red Crow


    Siuin wrote: »
    http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4305658,00.html




    RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
    No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

    It's RIP to the Israelis yet you describe the Palestinian child as unfortunate. The reason it won't see the news in Ireland is because there exists far more supporters of the Palestinian cause than that of the US supported Big bully Israel.

    In 20 years we will be further along because it'll take an older generation of US based Jewish lobbyists to die out before we see any progress. Also the younger generation of Israelis just want to see peace and understand that that can't come with war.


    These lobbyists are the same that didn't want to see Mary Robinson honoured.


  • #51
    Einhard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    Obviously the death of any child (or, for that matter, any civilian) in such a manner is tragic, but I think that any reasonable person would have to concede that Israel didn't set out to kill this child, or any other civilians in this instance. Whereas the policy of Hamas is to murder Israeli citizens, and the more the better. It's entirely disingenuous therefore, to claim that Hamas' targeting of apartment blocks is morally equivalent to Israel's taking out of this guy.

    That's not to say that israel is blameless. Obviously not. She bears a large proportion of the responsibility for the situation in the region. But I don't think it's reasonable to state that, because Israel acted badly in one instance she must always then be acting in the same manner.

    If Hamas care so much for their own people, why do they fire rockets from populated centres, and then hide amongst civilians, knowing full well the Israeli response?


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  • #52
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,280 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Siuin wrote: »

    RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
    No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

    When Israel start killing tens of innocents in Gaza will you afford them the same courtesy or are only the Israeli's 'innocent'?


  • #53
    Siuin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,659 ✭✭✭Siuin


    Blay wrote: »
    When Israel start killing tens of innocents in Gaza will you afford them the same courtesy or are only the Israeli's 'innocent'?
    Such hyperhole- Israel has never killed 'tens of thousands' in Gaza. Perhaps if its terrorists weren't such selfish fanatics they wouldn't cowardly hide behind their citizens to begin with.


  • #54
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Siuin wrote: »
    No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

    Yes because the Hamas embassy in Dublin will lean hard on any Irish news outlet that tries to publicise it and knock out the broadcast satellites 20,000 miles above Africa with Katusha rockets.

    WTF?


  • #55
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,280 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Siuin wrote: »
    Such hyperhole- Israel has never killed 'tens of thousands' in Gaza. Perhaps if its terrorists weren't such selfish fanatics they wouldn't cowardly hide behind their citizens to begin with.

    Read that again...I said 'tens' i.e. 10, 20, 30, not tens of thousands.


  • #56
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    This bullshit of blaming Palestinian militants for civilian deaths by 'hiding' amongst them is the height of 'black and white' (lack of) thought and is incredibly naive.

    What do those who accuse Palestinian militants of hiding amongst the population propose they do? Stand out in the open with rifles and be torn to shreds by multi-million dollar man-mincing helicopters?

    FGS get some sort of understanding of asymmetric warfare before banging on about the issue.
    Asymmetric warfare is war between belligerents whose relative military power differs significantly, or whose strategy or tactics differ significantly.

    "Asymmetric warfare" can describe a conflict in which the resources of two belligerents differ in essence and in the struggle, interact and attempt to exploit each other's characteristic weaknesses.

    In an asymmetric conflict, the dominant side, normally as part of a propaganda campaign, can accuse the weaker side of being bandits, pillagers or terrorists. Others argue that asymmetric warfare is called "terrorism" by those wishing to exploit the negative connotations of the word and bring the political aims of the weaker opponents into question.


  • #57
    Jaafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    It should be noted that the latest round of escalations began with an Israeli airstrike back on October 7, with rockets following thereafter, the Israeli claim that Hamas started this violence is baseless. That of course is not to defend the firing of rockets into populated areas, but lets at least get our facts straight here.

    In fact it can be shown that the vast majority of times it is Israel that begins hostilities.

    There can be no doubt Bibi wanted this war,for better or worse.


  • #58
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Jaafa wrote: »
    It should be noted that the latest round of escalations began with an Israeli airstrike back on October 7, with rockets following thereafter, the Israeli claim that Hamas started this violence is baseless. That of course is not to defend the firing of rockets into populated areas, but lets at least get our facts straight here
    Which facts? I know which side Al-Akhbar's bread is buttered. Do you? the rocket fire over lines has been incessant since long before "October 7". Even according to the Ma'an agency's own bulletins.
    Hamas just keep on providing excuses for the coalition govt to jump on.


  • #59
    Jaafa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,621 ✭✭✭Jaafa


    JustinDee wrote: »
    Which facts? I know which side Al-Akhbar's bread is buttered. Do you? the rocket fire over lines has been incessant since long before "October 7". Even according to the Ma'an agency's own bulletins.
    Hamas just keep on providing excuses for the coalition govt to jump on.

    Show me how many rockets were fired in say a 2 or 3 week period before October 7.


  • #60
    JustinDee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,684 ✭✭✭JustinDee


    Jaafa wrote: »
    Show me how many rockets were fired in say a 2 or 3 week period before October 7.
    Read it yourself on Ma'an. I'm on a phone, not a laptop right now.


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  • #61
    wes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,749 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Siuin wrote: »
    RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
    No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

    And you would be wrong:

    Reports of three killed in rocket attack in south Israel


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