Top Hamas Military leader killed - Israel/Hamas on the brink of War??

WakeUp

Israel killed their most "wanted terrorist" today in a missile strike. Ahmed Ja'abari head of the Hamas armed wing was smoked as he and another passenger drove a car somewhere in the Gaza strip.

The Israelis are saying this is just the begining with more to follow. Hamas has said they have opened up the "gates of hell" by killing him.

Israel must surely know and taken into consideration the likelyhood of retaliation for this killing are they prepared for a full scale ground invasion as happend with operation Cast lead? is this the first shot across the bow in a new war in that part of the world? only time will tell.

*** guy called Harry Fear live link from inside Gaza ***
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud

live cam feeds over looking Gaza City:
http://rt.com/on-air/gaza-violence-hamas-israel/
http://www.ustream.tv/channel/hanissalamah

http://www.independent.ie/world-news/middle-east/leading-hamas-commander-killed-in-israeli-airstrike-3294335.html
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-says-ahmed-jabari-killing-is-launch-of-operation-to-assassinate-palestinian-militant-leaders-8316598.html

JustinDee

Israel and Hamas are already at war.

The rockets being fired over the past few months have given the Israeli govt an excuse to retaliate in a pre-election populist operation into Gaza timed also as Syria would be at its weakest since June 1967.

WakeUp

JustinDee wrote: »

Israel and Hamas are already at war.

The rockets being fired over the past few months have given the Israeli govt an excuse to retaliate in a pre-election operation into Gaza.

I know there has been rockets being fired over the past few months but do you think this will develop into a full scale war? the Israelis are targeting the leadership of Hamas and say they will continue to do so it can only really go in one direction I would think and thats all out war??

hyperborean

There will be no war, Gaza is a Prison and Isreal controls everything about it, Hamas never lay a glove on them before they are slapped down.

To have a war both side have to think they have a chance, in this case it will be a rout just like Cast Lead,

Crazy religions again,

JustinDee

WakeUp wrote: »

I know there has been rockets being fired over the past few months but do you think this will develop into a full scale war? the Israelis are targeting the leadership of Hamas and say they will continue to do so it can only really go in one direction I would think and thats all out war??

An incursion operation. Quick shot at Gaza for targets such as today's then back out again, shutting up shop.
For the reasons I gave. Weaker Syria and upcoming populism requirements. Iran's stretch into the area also weaker as now limited to Hizbullah. Also, given that Hamas leadership have bolted from Syria, they are now more traceable.

I don't know what you mean by full-scale war though. Hizbullah? Egypt? Iran? Russia and US poking using their proxies against each other in region in augmented fashion?

BlaasForRafa

WakeUp wrote: »

I know there has been rockets being fired over the past few months but do you think this will develop into a full scale war? the Israelis are targeting the leadership of Hamas and say they will continue to do so it can only really go in one direction I would think and thats all out war??

Hamas fired over 100 rockets last week, this is retaliation for that. Why would Israel bother with a costly war when they can pick off Hamas leaders like this

Being made Hamas military chief must be like being asked to dig your own grave, there's probably a meeting going on in Gaza atm with a bunch of guys trying not to pick the short straw.

Headshot

Could be preparation by the Israel to go to war with Iran. They need to stop Hamas using their long rang bombs on the aftermath of bombing of Iran hence doing it now

JustinDee

Headshot wrote: »

Could be preparation by the Israel to go to war with Iran. They need to stop Hamas using their long rang bombs on the aftermath of bombing of Iran hence doing it now

Which long-range bombs are there in Gaza?
This has nothing to do with a war on Iran. They took out an enemy leader purely due to the fact that Iran have less influence in any retaliation.

hyperborean

Headshot wrote: »

Could be preparation by the Israel to go to war with Iran. They need to stop Hamas using their long rang bombs on the aftermath of bombing of Iran hence doing it now

No way will Isreal take a shot at Iran, to many variables, it would make Iraq and afganistan look like panama.

Headshot

JustinDee wrote: »

Which long-range bombs are there in Gaza?
This has nothing to do with a war on Iran. They took out an enemy leader purely due to the fact that Iran have less influence in any retaliation.

Fajr-5 if you believe sky news

GRMA

Might go in and massacre civilians again and leave, back to the worlds largest open prison status quo.

Siuin

Israel has been bombarded particularly heavily in recent months- do people seriously think that Israel should sit back and twiddle their thumbs while their entire southern population is being continually fired upon and in a state of fear, sitting in bomb shelters on an almost daily basis? Ffs- any other country and there would be complete outrage. Good riddance to the terrorist they killed- may it be a warning to the rest of the cowards targeting innocent civilians.

Nodin

WakeUp wrote: »

Israel killed their most "wanted terrorist" today in a missile strike. Ahmed Ja'abari head of the Hamas armed wing was smoked as he and another passenger drove a car somewhere in the Gaza strip.

The Israelis are saying this is just the begining with more to follow. Hamas has said they have opened up the "gates of hell" by killing him.

Israel must surely know and taken into consideration the likelyhood of retaliation for this killing are they prepared for a full scale ground invasion as happend with operation Cast lead? is this the first shot across the bow in a new war in that part of the world? only time will tell.
l

...election time again, tbh. Describing an incursion into gaza as a war is a bit much, tbh. Its tanks, jets and choppers against aks (~not counting the other technological advantages).

GRMA

Siuin wrote: »

Israel has been bombarded particularly heavily in recent months- do people seriously think that Israel should sit back and twiddle their thumbs while their entire southern population is being continually fired upon and in a state of fear, sitting in bomb shelters on an almost daily basis? Ffs- any other country and there would be complete outrage. Good riddance to the terrorist they killed- may it be a warning to the rest of the cowards targeting innocent civilians.

Yeah, the 11 month old baby they killed was a right nasty piece of work. Why are rockets being fired? Becuase of the brutal zionist imposed status quo.

opinionated3

GRMA wrote: »

Yeah, the 11 month old baby they killed was a right nasty piece of work. Why are rockets being fired? Becuase of the brutal zionist imposed status quo.

And you think Israeli lives are worth less??

Siuin

GRMA wrote: »

Yeah, the 11 month old baby they killed was a right nasty piece of work. Why are rockets being fired? Becuase of the brutal zionist imposed status quo.

So you're justifying rocking innocent civilians now?
Never fails to surprise me... :rolleyes:

GRMA

Siuin wrote: »

So you're justifying rocking innocent civilians now?
Never fails to surprise me... :rolleyes:

No.

Is the other poster justifying this?

<snip>

MOD NOTE: Per the charter, do not post pictures of bombing victims in threads. If you think they add to the point you are trying to make, provide a link with a warning.

flogging a dead horse

Hamas and their 'great' arsenal of poxy katusha rockets that land aimlessly into southern Israel. Hamas are a joke and with democratic Egypt they should sue for peace and take what they get!

Siuin

GRMA wrote: »

No.

Is the other poster justifying this?

I think it's unfortunate things like that happen. One would wonder what the mindset of terrorists are when they fire rockets from heavily built up civilian areas.

Yet you tell us that rockets are being fired because of the 'brutal zionist imposed status quo' - do elaborate. Do you think it's fair that a huge population of innocent civilians should suffer? Also, are you condemning Egypt's role in enforcing the blockade?

BlaasForRafa

The moment of the strike on Hamas military chief Ahmed Jabari

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6U2ZQ0EhN4

Siuin

Good riddance.
No doubt enjoying his 72 virgins as we speak

KenSwee

opinionated3 wrote: »

And you think Israeli lives are worth less??

That's not the point. They are murderers. Those innocent children or adults killed and injured were not terrorists. If you or I killed somebody, we would have to answer for it, regardless of what our reasons were for our action. They are murderers, plain and simple.

Please explain to me why nobody in the state of Israel is responsible for the deaths of innocent people that occurred during this attack?

KenSwee

GRMA wrote: »

No.

Is the other poster justifying this?

<mod snip>

Jesus wept. For me it's simple, when children die, that's it, no matter what the background is or who's side it's on. No "legitimate" nation should be responsible for an actions like this.

Those pilots have committed a war crime either way today. Each side is as bad as the other but Israel are supposed to be the side who are democratic. Their actions caused this poor child's fate.

There is always another way.

Siuin

KenSwee wrote: »

That's not the point. They are murderers.

And what are Hamas? 'Freedom Fighters'? 'Martyrs'? These men were given a task of taking down one of the terrorists responsible for the incessant rocket attacks on Israeli citizens. The difference between the IDF's targetting of the terrorist and the actions of Hamas is that the IDF conducted a focused attack and did not have the intention of killing any innocent civilians. In contrast, Hamas propells rockets towards Israel, often at times when they know kids will be on their way to or from school with the intention of murdering civilians. It is always tragic when anyone gets caught in the crossfire, but I really don't see how anyone could put the IDF's actions on par with those of Hamas.

arybvtcw0eolkf

KenSwee wrote: »

Jesus wept. For me it's simple, when children die, that's it, no matter what the background is or who's side it's on. No "legitimate" nation should be responsible for an actions like this.

Those pilots have committed a war crime either way today. Each side is as bad as the other but Israel are supposed to be the side who are democratic. Their actions caused this poor child's fate.

There is always another way.

As awful and cold as it sounds but innocents will always be killed in war, but nations can minimize those deaths and insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters (call them what you will) have a part to play in this in so far as not using civilian population centers to launch attacks from and hide in.

In the event of a large scale military engagement the Israeli's could do it on the cheap and carpet bomb Gaza and wipe the place off the face of the earth if you really believe thats their aim.. But instead they use guided munitions and surgical strikes against their enemy targets to minimize civilian casualties.

There is a price to attacking any nation, and in particular Israel and that price is often very bloody and costly in terms of human life.. Hamas harassed Israel something awful in the last number of months with almost daily rocket attacks, they (Hamas) know the price they'll pay so if they think they can afford it let them shut up about it and get on with their business when Israel strikes back ~ or is it a one way war they want?.

But regardless of all that I think everyone will agree that innocent lives lost is a terrible price to have to pay, its unavoidable but can be minimized.

I doubt there's ever been a war/battle whereby innocents were not killed, I've never witnessed one yet.

KenSwee

Siuin wrote: »

And what are Hamas? 'Freedom Fighters'? 'Martyrs'? These men were given a task of taking down one of the terrorists responsible for the incessant rocket attacks on Israeli citizens. The difference between the IDF's targetting of the terrorist and the actions of Hamas is that the IDF conducted a focused attack and did not have the intention of killing any innocent civilians. In contrast, Hamas propells rockets towards Israel, often at times when they know kids will be on their way to or from school with the intention of murdering civilians. It is always tragic when anyone gets caught in the crossfire, but I really don't see how anyone could put the IDF's actions on par with those of Hamas.

Hamas are a bunch of murderers as well but Israel are supposed to be a legitimate government. They should be acting above the level of attacks such as this.

Focused attack my arse. if that was their intention, then they failed. Just look at the result.

On countless occasions, they have committed acts that would be defined as rouge but because they are who they are and live in the shadow of the USA, they walk away every time.

Murders of innocent bystanders.
Illegal hoarding of weapons.
Kidnapping.
Invasion of sovereign states.

Their list is endless.

They are murderers.

KenSwee

Koda Red Stepson wrote: »

As awful and cold as it sounds but innocents will always be killed in war, but nations can minimize those deaths and insurgents, terrorists, freedom fighters (call them what you will) have a part to play in this in so far as not using civilian population centers to launch attacks from and hide in.

In the event of a large scale military engagement the Israeli's could do it on the cheap and carpet bomb Gaza and wipe the place off the face of the earth if you really believe thats their aim.. But instead they use guided munitions and surgical strikes against their enemy targets to minimize civilian casualties.

There is a price to attacking any nation, and in particular Israel and that price is often very bloody and costly in terms of human life.. Hamas harassed Israel something awful in the last number of months with almost daily rocket attacks, they (Hamas) know the price they'll pay so if they think they can afford it let them shut up about it and get on with their business when Israel strikes back ~ or is it a one way war they want?.

But regardless of all that I think everyone will agree that innocent lives lost is a terrible price to have to pay, its unavoidable but can be minimized.

I doubt there's ever been a war/battle whereby innocents were not killed, I've never witnessed one yet.

But the whole issue is not being resolved in the correct way.
We all allow the government of Israel to commit terrible acts of terrorism and illegal actions since it's establishment as a nation.

We also allow them to play in our sporting events which gives them no incentive to try and get on with their neighbors.

FFS, they are all the bloody same people yet because of stupid religion and a ridiculous commitment to being hard nosed idiots, the result is always the bloody same.

Of course there is always unavoidable issues where innocent people are killed but in this case, every time it happens, nobody learns, especially Israel. You say there is a price, well, those poor children shouldn't have to pay for it. And the guided strikes are never so guided. That is a undeniable fact. Take a look at what the Israeli government have been involved in over the last 40 years and also, don't forget that no matter what they try to say, they were responsible for the deaths of over 300 hundred Palestinian children in 2008 and 2009. Don't be fooled by what you may hear about Mossad. They have as much blood on their hands as any terrorist group, much of it innocent blood. Take a look at the attack on the Sands Hotel in Beirut in 1973, codenamed Operation Spring of Youth. This attack, a revenge killing for the Munich attack in 1972, resulted in innocent bystanders being murdered in an attempt to carry out a killing of three Palestinian Liberation Organisation members. One of the Mossad agents in that attack was the future Prime Minister of Israel, Ehud Barak! Incredibly, some of these thugs were decorated afterwards. In spite of the fact that a considerable number of innocent people were killed. Also, in an act of revenge for the Munich attack, another innocent man, Ahmed Bouchiki, was murdered by Mossad after he was mistakenly identified as a Palestinian terrorist. He was shot in front of his pregnant wife while leaving a cinema in Lillyhammer, Norway. Six agents were arrested, but five received very short prison terms. Israel actually tried to pay off Bouchiki's wife, even though they never had the balls to admit they carried out the crime! Mossad's speciality is sneaking around the world committing acts of terror and assassinations in the name of the Israeli state and democracy. I'm not sure what type of democracy they have, but it's not my type. And you might say that all these acts could be called unfortunate, or even collateral damage, if you were that cynical, but I'd love to hear your view if it happened to one of your family members.

Here we have Hamas, a crazy bunch of idiots who use children as human shields. Well, there's nothing you can do to convince ignorant gits like that about peace and reconciliation. The only way to get rid of them is to make them redundant and unimportant. Use their own people against them by giving the Palestinian on the street (or what's left of it) what he wants: his own fully independent state with linking borders and an open city policy on Jerusalem. If you give that, then the likes of Hamas have no reason for being around. If they continue to be trouble, then you have proper justification to defend yourself by permanently knocking the stuffing out of them.

Both the Palestinians and the Israelis believe they were given their land by God!Holy ****, how do you work with that??The simple answer is that you can't, so you have to force both of them to do the right thing.
See, I think it's really simple, and forgive me for putting it this way, but to be honest, I don't care because it's right!
When one child, never mind 400, gets killed, no matter what the reason, whatever the f**k you are doing must stop there and now.

The assholes in Tel Aviv are complaining about their civilians being killed by home made pieces of s**t flying into their back gardens, but they made that choice to stick their fat asses there in the first place. The land that they have their swimming pools on is not theirs. It was mostly taken in by force and never handed back. But the children that died in Gaza over the last day had no choice. They were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Some were there because their parents or families had nowhere else to go. We say that Israel is a democratic, civilised nation which, according to them, is defending its right to exist. Well, if my head Minister made that statement and then went on to be responsible for the deaths of over 400 hundred kids, the least he would have to worry about is his fecking vote from me.

You can't justify hundreds of dead children in the name of democracy and freedom. It's as simple as that. I couldn't care less about the crazy Hamas 'freedom fighters' running around with home-made S**trockets in their back pockets. Feck them, they deserve to get the asses blown to hell. But what I won't allow myself to accept is that a nation that stands beside my country in all of the major sporting tournaments and competitions like the European Championship in soccer and the Eurovision Song contest can be accepted after the horrendous acts of both terrorism and war crimes against mainly helpless people and claim it's all for democracy.
Israel gets away with it all because we are meant to feel sorry about them. But we don't feel sorry about Poland who suffered equally in the holocaust. Nah, screw that, sure they only lost 1 million Poles! But we all know the bully always gets his turn and Israel is allowing Hamas to breed another 6 million of theses crazy feckers who will have no problem walking into a suicide. That's all they will have managed to achieve by its defensive offensive. When I hear the Israeli ambassador on my local radio station saying that on behalf of Israel that he "deeply regrets" the death of children, I have to laugh, you don't convince me mate, and if you gave that answer to my face I'd punch your lights out. They should all know better and hang their heads in shame. I have no problem telling an Israeli citizen that.

This was an act that if carried out by anybody else would have been considered terrorism.

They just keep getting away with every single time.
Murder of innocents
Kidnapping
Illegal storage of WMD
Illegal acts of invasion

No other country would getting away with it every single time.

arybvtcw0eolkf

KenSwee wrote: »

Hamas are a bunch of murderers as well but Israel are supposed to be a legitimate government. They should be acting above the level of attacks such as this.

Focused attack my arse. if that was their intention, then they failed. Just look at the result.

On countless occasions, they have committed acts that would be defined as rouge but because they are who they are and live in the shadow of the USA, they walk away every time.

Murders of innocent bystanders.
Illegal hoarding of weapons.
Kidnapping.
Invasion of sovereign states.

Their list is endless.

They are murderers.

Some food for thought (for you).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

**edit**

Sorry Ken I replied to you before I'd seen your reply to me.

You're fairly naive when it comes to war, and I'm not trying to belittle you when I say that. But if you'll forgive me I won't debate too many of your points made (I've done it in a thousand other threads on the same subject).

I don't think anyone here would advocate war, and sure we'd all rather avoid conflict. But Whats a country to do when its constantly attacked, on a daily basis Israel is attacked from inside Gaza ~ this is beyond dispute, no one can honestly deny that.

As I said earlier, there's a price to pay for attacking any nation and a terrorist leader paid that price (with his life) today ~ unfortunately as it all too often happens innocents were also killed.

I'm off to bed now, hope you have a good night & and if you pray (I don't) when lets pray for peace.. goodnight.

cameramonkey

Siuin wrote: »

I think it's unfortunate things like that happen.

I think its a lot more than unfortunate, maybe a tragedy for everyone involved.

KenSwee

Koda Red Stepson wrote: »

Some food for thought (for you).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

**edit**

Sorry Ken I replied to you before I'd seen your reply to me.

You're fairly naive when it comes to war, and I'm not trying to belittle you when I say that. But if you'll forgive me I won't debate too many of your points made (I've done it in a thousand other threads on the same subject).

I don't think anyone here would advocate war, and sure we'd all rather avoid conflict. But Whats a country to do when its constantly attacked, on a daily basis Israel is attacked from inside Gaza ~ this is beyond dispute, no one can honestly deny that.

As I said earlier, there's a price to pay for attacking any nation and a terrorist leader paid that price (with his life) today ~ unfortunately as it all too often happens innocents were also killed.

I'm off to bed now, hope you have a good night & and if you pray (I don't) when lets pray for peace.. goodnight.

First off, I am not 'naive ' when it comes to war. Don't make that assumption; you don't know me at all and have no knowledge of where I have been or what my experiences are. I don't agree with your opinion but I respect your level of knowledge on the subject.

Secondly I am not a supporter of Hamas or any idiotic group of its kind. However I do believe that if a nation illegally enters and takes land, then yes, there is a price to pay, and Israel are currently paying that price.

There is no justification for the acts that the Israeli government carries out.

Some food for thought regarding your video.
Testimony from a general of a nation who were part of a invasion force who entered Iraq on false pretenses is not a good start by the way. And if what he claims is true, then it is one of a very small amount of times where the IDF behaved with some kind of conviction.

Did the IDF do everything possible in this situation? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila

donfers

opinionated3 wrote: »

And you think Israeli lives are worth less??

hmmm......the issue of worth of lives is an interesting one when you look at the israeli -palestinian conflict

am i right in saying that there have something like 1,000 palestinian deaths for every Israeli one

so whatever about our spiritual notions of how sacred life is it seems that in this conflict at least that an Israeli life is worth 1,000 Palestinian lives

this, i think, is one of the key reasons why there is a lot of sympathy for the Palestinian cause all around the world and it's not about anti-semitism at all

people just don't like seeing lots of people being massacred

and despite all the spin and protestations and propoganda and excuses there is no doubt that many many innocent civilians have been massacred, a lot lot lot more on the Palestinian side

civilised countries should do everything possible to avoid doing just that

WakeUp

JustinDee wrote: »

An incursion operation. Quick shot at Gaza for targets such as today's then back out again, shutting up shop.
For the reasons I gave. Weaker Syria and upcoming populism requirements. Iran's stretch into the area also weaker as now limited to Hizbullah. Also, given that Hamas leadership have bolted from Syria, they are now more traceable.

I don't know what you mean by full-scale war though. Hizbullah? Egypt? Iran? Russia and US poking using their proxies against each other in region in augmented fashion?

I think middle eastern dynamics have changed since the Arab spring the two wild cards being Egypt and Iran. Will be interesting to see how Mursi reacts in Egypt so far he has recalled his ambassador and called for an emergency UNSC meeting. The arab league are meeting too. Egypt has stuck to the peace agreement signed with Israel in 79 will Mursi use this as an excuse to tear it up I dont know, probably not I would think I dont see what he has to gain by doing so, but since coming to power he has made some strongly worded statements something Egypt hasnt done in a long time.

There is an internal power struggle taking place within the leadership of Hamas. Like you said when exiled leaders of Hamas , came out against Assad they were forced to leave Syria which in turn strained relations with Iran.

The Hamas leaders inside Gaza are of the opinion that they are the legitimate leadership and should be calling the shots not the leaders in exile as has been the case over the years. Basically its an attempted power grab by them which when you think about it probably makes the most sense as they know exactly what will happen if they let rockets be fired toward Israel daily. They will be hammered in return at some point. They want to show that its them resisting the occupation and not the leaders outside the Gaza strip. Will the Iranians and Syrians now start backing the fighters inside Gaza more directly? its possible. I think theres a massive chance of miscalculation happening on both sides though its impossible to predict the outcome or what is to come. Its a very dangerous situation for all concerned and the region at large that much Im sure of.

Chuck Stone

Koda Red Stepson wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NX6vyT8RzMo

Kemp wrote the report for the Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA).

You'll note that the JCPA:

is a pro-Israel organisation, promoting a positive image of Israel, advocating Israels right to exist and fighting anti-semitism. It advocates the Israeli annexation of East Jerusalem and its lasting control of the West Bank and Golan Heights. It opposes a unilateral Palestinian drive toward statehood

(My emphasis).

Kemp's 'report' (ramblings) seems like a cynical and deliberate attempt to undermine the Goldstone Report. It seems the JCPA are little more than a propaganda tool for far right Israeli policy.

Kemp appears to be a good friend of the Israeli right.

BlaasForRafa

WakeUp wrote: »

I think middle eastern dynamics have changed since the Arab spring the two wild cards being Egypt and Iran. Will be interesting to see how Mursi reacts in Egypt so far he has recalled his ambassador and called for an emergency UNSC meeting. The arab league are meeting too. Egypt has stuck to the peace agreement signed with Israel in 79 will Mursi use this as an excuse to tear it up I dont know, probably not I would think I dont see what he has to gain by doing so, but since coming to power he has made some strongly worded statements something Egypt hasnt done in a long time.

Egypt will huff and puff but in the end they won't do much at all. They've been losing face in the arab world in comparison to Saudi Arabia and Qatar over the latters support for the Syrian rebels, they Egyptians may see a show of support for Hamas as a way to gain face in "the arab street" but they won't do anything militarily because they know the Israelis would make mincemeat of them.

There is an internal power struggle taking place within the leadership of Hamas. Like you said when exiled leaders of Hamas , came out against Assad they were forced to leave Syria which in turn strained relations with Iran.

Hamas are probably at their weakest in political terms but taking on Israel as a way to grab legitimacy is like trying to play chicken with a Mack truck.

The Hamas leaders inside Gaza are of the opinion that they are the legitimate leadership and should be calling the shots not the leaders in exile as has been the case over the years. Basically its an attempted power grab by them which when you think about it probably makes the most sense as they know exactly what will happen if they let rockets be fired toward Israel daily. They will be hammered in return at some point. They want to show that its them resisting the occupation and not the leaders outside the Gaza strip. Will the Iranians and Syrians now start backing the fighters inside Gaza more directly? its possible. I think theres a massive chance of miscalculation happening on both sides though its impossible to predict the outcome or what is to come. Its a very dangerous situation for all concerned and the region at large that much Im sure of.

The Hamas leadership in Gaza may find that their leadership group is a lot smaller in a few days time than it was when they started firing volleys of rockets a few days ago.

I don't see the Syrians doing too much, we've seen some spillover from the Syrian revolution in the Golan front but the IDF will brutally put down any serious moves by the Syrians. Hamas and Iran have had a problematic relationship in the last year or so because of Hamas refusal to support Assad, whether they will reconcile because of these attacks is unknown. Hezbollah is in a problematic position as well because of the problems in Syria and I'd say Hezbollah need a confrontation with Israel like they need a hole in the head but I guess we'll see what happens in a few days time.

SeanW

GRMA wrote: »

No.

Is the other poster justifying this?

<mod snip>

Are you suggesting that the Israelis set out specifically to kill a child?

WakeUp

Including this link to a chap called Harry Fear its a live link from inside Gaza. He is saying the Israeli airforce are dropping leaflets and that a ground invasion is imminent. Bombs are still dropping.

http://www.ustream.tv/channel/operation-pillar-of-cloud

Brown Bomber

SeanW wrote: »

Are you suggesting that the Israelis set out specifically to kill a child?

Wouldn't be the first time and won't be the last http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2102081.stm

Do you honestly think Israel cares about killing children? If they did they wouldn't kill so many of them surely?

NIMAN

OF course the Israeli's don't care about collateral damage, neither side do. As long as they get their man they don't care how many are taken out near him.

This conflict is so depressing, and I have really had my fill of it. Plus I hate the picking sides that we do especially in N.Ireland.

I can't ever see an end to it all, as neither side is willing to give an inch. FFS even NI got its act together after many years fighting. Everyone realised no-one was winning, but these dumb asses can seem to see this. Its tit-for-tat that will continue for decades to come.

I shed no tears for the Hamas leader, but I do for that poor little infant.

SeanW

It's a very wild claim that the Israeli government specifically had this little guy on their "hit list" I suspect he (or she?) was an accidental kill. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I suspect the post I quoted was little more than a wild stab at making a "pleeeeeeease think of the children" argument.

Consider: Israel has, to its Southwestern edge, a statelet ruled by Hamas (whos charter BTW very specifically states that their objective is to kill Jews). Said state continuously fires rockets into Israel so as to keep the people of Southern Israel in a state of permanent terror.
Hamas have made it clear time and time again that they do not want a peaceful resolution to their dispute. They want the Jews dead. They won't settle for anything less than blood.

What, in your view, should the Israelis do? (Other than jumping into the sea to save their neighbors the trouble?)

NIMAN

"On the brink of war"

???

So what have they been doing all these years? Playing games?

WakeUp

Am not sure how many of yous are following that Harry dudes link but the building either next door or across the street has just been bombed the room he is reporting in shook. A few mins ago he said Egyptian tanks are currently moving into the Sinai. Things are starting to move fast.

BlaasForRafa

WakeUp wrote: »

Am not sure how many of yous are following that Harry dudes link but the building either next door or across the street has just been bombed the room he is reporting in shook. A few mins ago he said Egyptian tanks are currently moving into the Sinai. Things are starting to move fast.

Egyptian tanks were already in the Sinai, that isn't new news. They've been there for a while to deal with militants in the Sinai.

Brown Bomber

SeanW wrote: »

It's a very wild claim that the Israeli government specifically had this little guy on their "hit list" I suspect he (or she?) was an accidental kill. Unless there is evidence to the contrary, I suspect the post I quoted was little more than a wild stab at making a "pleeeeeeease think of the children" argument.

To think of the children argument is appropriate as we should think of the children when they are being murdered in war crimes ...or tortured, used as human shields, intentionally starved through blockades etc

SeanW wrote: »

Consider: Israel has, to its Southwestern edge, a statelet ruled by Hamas (whos charter BTW very specifically states that their objective is to kill Jews). Said state continuously fires rockets into Israel so as to keep the people of Southern Israel in a state of permanent terror.

It's resistance to a brutal occupation.

SeanW wrote: »

Hamas have made it clear time and time again that they do not want a peaceful resolution to their dispute. They want the Jews dead. They won't settle for anything less than blood.

Other than renouncing terrorism for the 67 borders of course.



http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4162912,00.html

SeanW wrote: »

What, in your view, should the Israelis do? (Other than jumping into the sea to save their neighbors the trouble?

Are you serious? Gaza was predicted by the UN to be uninhabitable by 2020. I suppose Castlead II and a repeat of the systemathic destruction of the civilian infrastructure would accelerate this even further.

What I would like Israel to do is end the occupation and work out a fair settlement with the Palestinians and somehow manage to control themselves and stop applying the Dahiya Doctrine every couple of years creating piles of corpses and misery to innocent people.

BlaasForRafa

Brown Bomber wrote: »

To think of the children argument is appropriate as we should think of the children when they are being murdered in war crimes ...or tortured, used as human shields,.

I agree, Hamas should stop using children as human shields, indeed they should stop using all civilians in Gaza as human shields and also stop hiding their rockets in civilian areas.

If Hamas thought more of their own civilians then perhaps they'd put them in less danger. Its an unfortunate truth that dead children are often more useful to Hamas in propoganda terms than any gunman or suicide bomber.

Brown Bomber

BlaasForRafa wrote: »

I agree, Hamas should stop using children as human shields, indeed they should stop using all civilians in Gaza as human shields and also stop hiding their rockets in civilian areas.

Everyone should stop using human shields of any description, including Israel. Do you disagree? Can you even say "Israel should stop using human shields"?

Manic Moran

Interesting days we live in, the two sides can now taunt each other on Twitter.

KenSwee wrote: »

Those pilots have committed a war crime either way today.

Under which paragraph of which international treaty?

Looking at the video, they hit their target directly with a weapon no larger than that required to do the job. Seems about as clear-cut as a strike can ever be.

AngryHippie

http://english.pnn.ps/index.php/national/3067-nov-29-a-day-for-all-palestinians

PNN

On Monday 12th November, Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas informed the Arab League's foreign ministers that the Palestinian Authority will submit its status upgrade bid to UN on November 29.

PA is seeking to convince the United Nations General Assembly upgrade the PA's status from "observer" to a "non-member state." and said that the support of the Arab League is also needed.

Abbas told the pan-Arab organisations ministers during a Cairo meeting, "We agreed to go get the vote on November 29. The majority needed for the vote will be on our side."

The Palestinians require a 193-members majority vote in the General Assembly for their bid to be successful.

Abbas confirmed that after the bid is granted, he's willing to resume peace negotiations with Israel. Yet, Abbas criticized Israel's continued settlement construction.

He said, "We want the world to understand that Palestinian lands are under occupation and that the settlements won't change that fact."

I'm pretty sure that Palestine getting a status upgrade would not be to Israel's liking as they would then have to recognize their treatment of palestinians and potentially have to start treating them like human beings....no that won't do, lets kick some sh1t off and make sure the UN is too busy trying to put out fires to deal with this vote effectively, and if they can undermine support for the PA in the meantime, why not....
Not to say that the vote would necessarily suit Hamas either, but maybe that is why they have been poking the big Jewbear:mad:

KenSwee

Manic Moran wrote: »

Interesting days we live in, the two sides can now taunt each other on Twitter.






Under which paragraph of which international treaty?

Looking at the video, they hit their target directly with a weapon no larger than that required to do the job. Seems about as clear-cut as a strike can ever be.

A bullet to the head is clear cut.
A bloody missile is not. Ask the innocent dead.

Siuin

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4305658,00.html

3 killed by rocket fire in Kiryat Malachi

Three people die when rockets hit southern city. Palestinians report three killed in IDF strike in Khan Younis. Security Council meeting ends without resolution
Ynet reporters
Latest Update: 11.15.12, 09:14 / Israel News
Gaza's terror groups continued to fire rockets on Israel's south overnight and early on Thursday. Three people – two women and a man – were killed in the morning when a rocket hit a building in the city of Kiryat Malachi.

A 4-year-old boy was moderately hurt and was taken to the Barzilai Medical Center in Ashkelon for treatment. A 1-year-old girl and another infant sustained light injuries and were taken to the Kaplan Medical Center. The girl's father was lightly hurt as well. Ten people suffered panic attacks. Another building in the city was directly hit, but no injuries were reported. Hamas' military wing accepted responsibility for the attacks.

Meanwhile, a rocket barrage targeted Ashdod, with one projectile hitting a home but failing to cause casualties. A school in Ofakim was also hit. Salvos targeted Beersheba, Ashkelon and Gan Yavne as well. Some of the rockets were intercepted by the Iron Dome missile defense system.[...]

RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

Red Crow

Siuin wrote: »

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4305658,00.html




RIP to the three innocents killed by Hamas...
No doubt this will not be reported in Ireland :rolleyes:

It's RIP to the Israelis yet you describe the Palestinian child as unfortunate. The reason it won't see the news in Ireland is because there exists far more supporters of the Palestinian cause than that of the US supported Big bully Israel.

In 20 years we will be further along because it'll take an older generation of US based Jewish lobbyists to die out before we see any progress. Also the younger generation of Israelis just want to see peace and understand that that can't come with war.


These lobbyists are the same that didn't want to see Mary Robinson honoured.

Einhard

Obviously the death of any child (or, for that matter, any civilian) in such a manner is tragic, but I think that any reasonable person would have to concede that Israel didn't set out to kill this child, or any other civilians in this instance. Whereas the policy of Hamas is to murder Israeli citizens, and the more the better. It's entirely disingenuous therefore, to claim that Hamas' targeting of apartment blocks is morally equivalent to Israel's taking out of this guy.

That's not to say that israel is blameless. Obviously not. She bears a large proportion of the responsibility for the situation in the region. But I don't think it's reasonable to state that, because Israel acted badly in one instance she must always then be acting in the same manner.

If Hamas care so much for their own people, why do they fire rockets from populated centres, and then hide amongst civilians, knowing full well the Israeli response?