What the hell is wrong with Guinness drinkers?

rubadub · 02-11-2012 07:24PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

A. Assume that they were just blindly following the advertising, or
B. Accept that they might have some reason, either experience or knowledge of the products, that informs their choice?

Probably a combination of both. You might have to elaborate on what experience or knowledge they might possibly have, as I specifically said the alternative was a ketchup they NEVER tasted before.

In the OP it sounded like he had never tasted dark arts before, and likely never heard of it before.

the beer revolu wrote: »

We did make him taste Dark Arts but his mind was made up long before it passed his lips - he was never going to drink it.

If somebody is a fan of a food/drink item, I would think they would be open to tasting more. Perhaps he did try loads of stouts and hated them, and so presumes he will hate the next one too -this just seems unusual as I said blind tasters do not show it. I would think it unusual if somebody despised all chocolate bars except mars, perhaps some do, but i think it would be odd to have such different taste buds than the normal population, if they are that sensitive they might find a profession to make use of it.

It would depend on the character of the person too, if I knew them I might be able to guess if is it rational/genuine. I know a guy who goes OTT about his alleged hatred of heineken, none of his mates believe it and joke about it as he gladly drinks other very similar beers. This can be seen as anti-advertising, hatred of the big-boys, like people overstating their hatred of apple/ipods, or indeed guinness.

I fully accept people do blindly follow advertising, you see it in threads like "ketchup heinz or chef", "cola: coke or pepsi". You see people with ridiculously OTT statements about how one is completely and utterly vile beyond belief, which the other is manna from heaven.

There have been various psychological experiments on the whole coke vs pepsi thing. Such as coke fans preferring coke from a unlabelled cup over the same coke in a pepsi cup.

One on wine here too

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/10/you-are-not-so-smart-why-we-cant-tell-good-wine-from-bad/247240/

In one experiment, he got 54 oenology (the study of wine tasting and wine making) undergraduates together and had them taste one glass of red wine and one glass of white wine. He had them describe each wine in as much detail as their expertise would allow. What he didn't tell them was both were the same wine. He just dyed the white one red. In the other experiment, he asked the experts to rate two different bottles of red wine. One was very expensive, the other was cheap. Again, he tricked them. This time he had put the cheap wine in both bottles. So what were the results?

The tasters in the first experiment, the one with the dyed wine, described the sorts of berries and grapes and tannins they could detect in the red wine just as if it really was red. Every single one, all 54, could not tell it was white. In the second experiment, the one with the switched labels, the subjects went on and on about the cheap wine in the expensive bottle. They called it complex and rounded. They called the same wine in the cheap bottle weak and flat.

Heroditas · 02-11-2012 10:17PM

I occasionally meet my mates for pints on Thursday nights and we go to the Stag's Head. Pints of Guinness etc.
For my birthday this year I convinced them to go to the Bull and Castle. Three of them loved it (two of whom love those places anyway, the third was a craft beer virgin but thoroughly enjoyed tasting different beers), the remaining two sat and complained about the Guinness all night saying it "tasted a bit off" or "the head doesn't look right" etc.
They point blank refused to try anything else despite me saying they might enjoy one or two of the porters/stouts.
It's a pity. Some people are really set in their ways.

johnnyskeleton · 03-11-2012 01:19AM

rubadub wrote: »

Probably a combination of both. You might have to elaborate on what experience or knowledge they might possibly have, as I specifically said the alternative was a ketchup they NEVER tasted before.

In the OP it sounded like he had never tasted dark arts before, and likely never heard of it before.

If somebody is a fan of a food/drink item, I would think they would be open to tasting more. Perhaps he did try loads of stouts and hated them, and so presumes he will hate the next one too -this just seems unusual as I said blind tasters do not show it. I would think it unusual if somebody despised all chocolate bars except mars, perhaps some do, but i think it would be odd to have such different taste buds than the normal population, if they are that sensitive they might find a profession to make use of it.

It would depend on the character of the person too, if I knew them I might be able to guess if is it rational/genuine. I know a guy who goes OTT about his alleged hatred of heineken, none of his mates believe it and joke about it as he gladly drinks other very similar beers. This can be seen as anti-advertising, hatred of the big-boys, like people overstating their hatred of apple/ipods, or indeed guinness.

I fully accept people do blindly follow advertising, you see it in threads like "ketchup heinz or chef", "cola: coke or pepsi". You see people with ridiculously OTT statements about how one is completely and utterly vile beyond belief, which the other is manna from heaven.

There have been various psychological experiments on the whole coke vs pepsi thing. Such as coke fans preferring coke from a unlabelled cup over the same coke in a pepsi cup.

One on wine here too

http://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2011/10/you-are-not-so-smart-why-we-cant-tell-good-wine-from-bad/247240/

Isn't that article about how people who assert themselves as sophisticated aren't really basing their opinions on actual taste, but on preconceived ideas of rarity and quality? As in, maybe If the op were to be told that the Guinness was dark arts and vice versa, he would sing the praises of the Guinness believing it to be, in his mind, a "better" stout?

Bigcheeze · 03-11-2012 08:59AM

Heroditas wrote: »

the remaining two sat and complained about the Guinness all night saying it "tasted a bit off" or "the head doesn't look right" etc.
They point blank refused to try anything else despite me saying they might enjoy one or two of the porters/stouts.
It's a pity. Some people are really set in their ways.

It's kind of a macho thing in ireland. "Knowledge" of the pint is something passed from father to son. Trying other drinks would be a sign of your failure as a man.

As part of my childhood training for the Knowledge I learned that you should never let a woman pull a pint of Guinness, there has to be a good run on the Guinness and never let your future wife use washing up liquid on the glasses.

I'm now labelled as being "in to those weird beers", the alcohol equivalent of running off to join the moonies.

the beer revolu · 03-11-2012 11:01AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

As in, maybe If the op were to be told that the Guinness was dark arts and vice versa, he would sing the praises of the Guinness believing it to be, in his mind, a "better" stout?

Maybe you could point out for me where I, the OP, expressed any opinion regarding the relative quality of Guinness over Dark Arts or any other beer?

_blank_ · 03-11-2012 11:16AM

Technocentral wrote: »

Their middle finger to the Evil Empire gets my vote. Ireland's changing, people are realizing that there are a number of home produced delicious alternatives to industrial produced blandness, why should every bar have to stock Diageo products? By that reckoning the IFI should show Battleships and the Times should have X Factor as its headline story because thats what the masses want. There is an increasing market for people sick of the same restricted choice.

did you read my post?

Clearly not.

I did not say they should get any of the Diageo products.

I said they should consider having at least ONE stout on draught, as I've witnessed potential customers walk out of the place when they couldn't get stout.

Ravelleman · 03-11-2012 11:55AM

Why do people eat economy-style ham? Or Calvita cheese? Because they are cheap and people like what they know.

I know lots of people who won't try things that are outside the boundaries of their experience, not just in the world of beer.

Some people are just like that in general.

the beer revolu · 03-11-2012 01:23PM

Ravelleman wrote: »

Why do people eat economy-style ham? Or Calvita cheese? Because they are cheap and people like what they know.

But Guinness is marketed as a "premium" brand.

Zebra3 · 03-11-2012 01:44PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

But Guinness is marketed as a "premium" brand.

As is Heineken.

the beer revolu · 03-11-2012 02:00PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

As is Heineken.

Yes it is.

What is your point?

Ruben Remus · 03-11-2012 02:26PM

Bigcheeze wrote: »

It's kind of a macho thing in ireland. "Knowledge" of the pint is something passed from father to son. Trying other drinks would be a sign of your failure as a man.

As part of my childhood training for the Knowledge I learned that you should never let a woman pull a pint of Guinness, there has to be a good run on the Guinness and never let your future wife use washing up liquid on the glasses.

I'm now labelled as being "in to those weird beers", the alcohol equivalent of running off to join the moonies.

Great post. I'm interested in how this staunch Guinness brand loyalty sets in, and your theory is a good one.

However, in my younger years I would have been very dubious about trying a stout other than Guinness and in my own case that wasn't passed from father to son as neither of my parents drink alcohol. I'm honestly not sure why I saw Guinness as superior and the likes of Beamish/Murphy's/O'Haras as being a bit questionable. Marketing, advertising and being around regular Guinness drinkers probably had something to do with it.

Today, Guinness is way down my list of preferences when it comes to stout/porter. I try to avoid ordering it if possible because:

a) I much prefer the taste of O'Hara's Leann Follain, Dark Arts, Eight Degrees' Knockmealdown Porter, Dungarvan Blackrock Stout, Porterhouse Plain, etc.
b) I'd rather not support a wealthy drinks corporation which is not even based in Ireland
and
c) The Arthur's Day nonsense really pisses me off.

_blank_ · 03-11-2012 04:01PM

One thing to be noted in this thread, I feel, is that

a. large bottles
2, extra stout
d. Foreign Extra

are all really good products from Guinness.

johnnyskeleton · 03-11-2012 04:03PM

the beer revolu wrote: »

Maybe you could point out for me where I, the OP, expressed any opinion regarding the relative quality of Guinness over Dark Arts or any other beer?

You didn't. My point is that for all your view of dark arts being superior to Guinness, if someone did the old switcharoo you mightn't notice the difference. That's the purport of that article.

In any event, why this need to constantly deride people's drinks choices? You dont become an expert merely by deriding the inexpertise of others.

_blank_ · 03-11-2012 04:06PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You didn't. My point is that for all your view of dark arts being superior to Guinness, if someone did the old switcharoo you mightn't notice the difference. That's the purport of that article.

In any event, why this need to constantly deride people's drinks choices? You dont become an expert merely by deriding the inexpertise of others.

What?

How could you NOT notice the difference between DA and Guinness

Do you know what DA is - have you drank it?

Son0vagun · 03-11-2012 07:57PM

There's a huge difference between DA and Guinness. So much more flavour in DA, it's quite magical in ways.

However, I do love a pint or ten of Guinness.

johnnyskeleton · 03-11-2012 08:17PM

_blank_ wrote: »

What?

How could you NOT notice the difference between DA and Guinness

Do you know what DA is - have you drank it?

It is difficult at times to have an objective discussion on this forum without the beer snobs running wild.

Rubadub posted an article about wine tasters who mistook a white wine for a red when die was added, and claimed to have noticed the unique favour profiles of a red wine in it.

So to apply that article to this thread, it is not beyond the realms of possibility that a person drinking dark arts, believing it to be Guinness, would deride it as being mass produced, bland etc, the same criticisms they make of Guinness, and they do so because of their mistaken belief.

If wine tasting students could make such a large error based on preconceptions, surely the same could be applied to the casual beer drinker.

And yes, I have tasted dark arts, on draft anyway.

Mr Magnolia · 03-11-2012 09:10PM

It's gas, I saw Ramsey quizzing 3 chefs once. He showed them beef rump, sirloin and fillet, he then blindfolded them for a taste test. He duly switched the plate with lamb, chicken and venison and none of the three noticed. Each identified one of the 3 beef cuts upon tasting.

My point is that if some people aren't prepared or it's an unsuspected or scripted taste test then I think the results could be for the birds but I feel if someone with a decent palate has the task set about them they'll easily identify a superior product.

johnnyskeleton · 03-11-2012 09:49PM

Mr Magnolia wrote: »

It's gas, I saw Ramsey quizzing 3 chefs once. He showed them beef rump, sirloin and fillet, he then blindfolded them for a taste test. He duly switched the plate with lamb, chicken and venison and none of the three noticed. Each identified one of the 3 beef cuts upon tasting.

My point is that if some people aren't prepared or it's an unsuspected or scripted taste test then I think the results could be for the birds but I feel if someone with a decent palate has the task set about them they'll easily identify a superior product.

Exactly. Equally, someone blind tasting to tell Guinness from a "superior" beer might not be investigating which beer they like best but rather attempting to identify one from the other. I suspect if people went in with a truly open mind we would get some interesting results, but that's neither here nor there. If you get extra enjoyment from being a "Guinness man" or indeed from being "a craft beer drinker" then that's perfectly fine. I know for a fact that much of what I enjoy in my favourite whisky is the presentation, the small scale and the fact that once it's gone there will never be the exact same single barrel whisky again. Does that make it objectively taste better? No. But I enjoy it more.

Anyway, with all this talk of stout I've selected one for myself. Marston Oyster stout, because I'm a sucker for punishment!

Seaneh · 03-11-2012 09:51PM

_blank_ wrote: »

One thing to be noted in this thread, I feel, is that

a. large bottles
2, extra stout
d. Foreign Extra

are all really good products from Guinness.

Large bottles and extra stout are the same thing.

Seaneh · 03-11-2012 09:52PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

You didn't. My point is that for all your view of dark arts being superior to Guinness, if someone did the old switcharoo you mightn't notice the difference. That's the purport of that article.

Of course you'd notice the difference, the flavours are as different as Heiniken and Budweiser!

_blank_ · 04-11-2012 07:52AM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

And yes, I have tasted dark arts, on draft anyway.

Could I ask in what pub?

jjf1974 · 04-11-2012 08:43AM

Some pubs in rural ireland stocked beamish and murphys for a while but demand was low ,the stout went stale in the barrel.The few that tried it ended up getting stale beer and drank guinness sence.

Zebra3 · 04-11-2012 10:56AM

the beer revolu wrote: »

Yes it is.

What is your point?

That marketing can try to con you.

johnnyskeleton · 04-11-2012 11:45AM

_blank_ wrote: »

Could I ask in what pub?

Wj kavanaghs Dorset street.

limnam · 04-11-2012 12:16PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Wj kavanaghs Dorset street.

They also have or at least had it in L. Mulligan's

_blank_ · 04-11-2012 12:18PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Wj kavanaghs Dorset street.

Having also had Dark arts in that establishment, I can tell you that there is a huge difference between it, and Guinness. There's no way you wouldn't know the difference blind.

The mouthfeel alone, between a nitro pint of guinness, and a normal pint of DA would be the giveaway.

I asked which pub, because DA is served nitro in O'Neill's,

Heroditas · 04-11-2012 12:24PM

_blank_ wrote: »

Having also had Dark arts in that establishment, I can tell you that there is a huge difference between it, and Guinness. There's no way you wouldn't know the difference blind.

The mouthfeel alone, between a nitro pint of guinness, and a normal pint of DA would be the giveaway.

I asked which pub, because DA is served nitro in O'Neill's,

And there's still a world of difference between DA served nitro and Guinness.

_blank_ · 04-11-2012 12:26PM

Heroditas wrote: »

And there's still a world of difference between DA served nitro and Guinness.

I did something fairly sneaky in O'Neill's.

friend of mine, from a group of us, was drinking Guinness, and after a few sups from the pints, I covertly let him take my DA the next time he picked up a pint from the table - he didn't notice.

Heroditas · 04-11-2012 12:48PM

_blank_ wrote: »

I did something fairly sneaky in O'Neill's.

friend of mine, from a group of us, was drinking Guinness, and after a few sups from the pints, I covertly let him take my DA the next time he picked up a pint from the table - he didn't notice.

Brilliant!
Bet he reckons loads of "those weirdo drinks" taste rotten as well.
I remember gleefully watching the barman try to pour the DA pint - all head and running down the side of the glass. Took him ages to put a reasonably acceptable pint in front of me. I eventually told him to not bother with the whole two pour hocus pocus and just lash it in a pint glass for me!

johnnyskeleton · 04-11-2012 02:41PM

_blank_ wrote: »

Having also had Dark arts in that establishment, I can tell you that there is a huge difference between it, and Guinness. There's no way you wouldn't know the difference blind.

The mouthfeel alone, between a nitro pint of guinness, and a normal pint of DA would be the giveaway.

I asked which pub, because DA is served nitro in O'Neill's,

Are you being deliberately obtuse or are you just not reading my posts. You went on to give an example of exactly the phenomenon I was talking about. Maybe you are so convinced of your ability to tell the difference that you wouldn't notice a switch, but so far all examples are of people being lead by what they are told, not what they taste. Stop arguing a point that no one is making.

Dark arts has also been served nitro in wjks, they have recently added cask versions.

What the hell is wrong with Guinness drinkers?

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