Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
If we do not hit our goal we will be forced to close the site.

Current status: https://keepboardsalive.com/

Annual subs are best for most impact. If you are still undecided on going Ad Free - you can also donate using the Paypal Donate option. All contribution helps. Thank you.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

The Hazards of Belief

18788909293334

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe




  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0



    As a result of the legal action, the church has removed the crucifix from the Church of St Patrick and moved it to another parish.
    Lads, that's not the answer to every problem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I thought the cross just took its friendship with the man's leg too far.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Wonder if it's worth opening up a sticky on blasphemy, state crackdowns on secularists, non-conformists, LGBT etc.

    Anyhow, Poland appears to be moving towards declaring blasphemy a legal offense:

    http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2012/10/30/polish-court-rules-against-rocker-who-tore-up-bible-on-stage/
    Reuters wrote:
    Poland’s Supreme Court has opened the way for a blasphemy verdict against a rock musician who tore up a Bible on stage, a case that has pitted deep Catholic traditions against a new desire for free expression.

    Adam Darski, front man with a heavy metal group named Behemoth, ripped up a copy of the Christian holy book during a concert in 2007, called it deceitful and described the Roman Catholic church as “a criminal sect”. His supporters say it was an act of artistic expression, but conservatives say he offended the sensibilities of Catholics in Poland, the homeland of the late Pope John Paul II and one of the religion’s most devout heartlands in Europe.

    The Supreme Court was asked to rule on legal arguments thrown up by the musician’s trial in a lower court on charges of offending religious feelings. It said on Monday a crime was committed even if the accused, who uses the stage name Nergal, did not act with the “direct intention” of offending those feelings, a court spokeswoman said.

    And Turkey bans a march in support of secularism:

    http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/29/us-turkey-march-idUSBRE89S0R620121029
    Reuters wrote:
    Turkish police fired tear gas and water cannon to disperse thousands of secularists protesting at a banned rally in the capital on Monday against what they see as an increasingly authoritarian and Islamist government.

    The scenes of chanting men and women draped in Turkish flags and carrying banners portraying the country's founding father Mustafa Kemal Ataturk highlight a longstanding division in Turkish society between staunch secularists on the one hand and more conservative religious Turks on the other. Although Prime Minister Tayyip Erdogan won a third term in power last year with 50 percent of the vote, many secular Turks fear his socially conservative AK Party has Islamist tendencies that threaten the secular republic founded by Ataturk.

    "They are trying to turn us into another Iran or some kind of neo-Ottoman Empire. We are against this," said retired 64-year-old Erdem Sevinc. "We are here today to send a message to those who are trying to destroy the principles of this republic," he said.

    The local government in Ankara, also controlled by Erdogan's AK Party, banned the rally citing "intelligence" it would be used for "provocation", a move protesters said was designed to silence government opponents. "Why have they banned this march? Because they are scared. They are scared of course," said 68-year-old Metin Alkan, sporting a black tie emblazoned with Ataturk's face.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,989 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Nonetheless, the lawyer maintains that the church was negligent.

    He said only one screw held the marble statue in place.

    That gave way when Mr Jimenez scrubbed the statue
    The statue is not the only one in that story with a screw loose :pac:


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    In Pakistan, protesters ransack a school whose headmaster is alleged to have acted in a manner perceived as contrary to the tenets of islam.

    What's interesting here is that Pakistani law apparently says it's not enough just to snitch on people who blaspheme, but also to snitch on people who witness blasphemy but don't report it.

    I'm open to correction here, but I don't believe that even the Russian Communists required this kind of third-order snitching.

    http://dawn.com/2012/11/01/blasphemy-school-ransacked/
    Dawn wrote:
    LAHORE, Oct 31: A large number of protesters including religious groups’ activists ransacked a private school’s three buildings and torched owner’s car allegedly on charges of committing blasphemy in Ravi Road area on Wednesday.

    It was alleged that the private school administration had distributed a paper among the students, which carried derogatory remarks about the Holy Prophet (PBUH) a few days ago.

    Police have registered a case against the schoolteacher and the principal under section 295-C (blasphemy) of Pakistan Penal Code.

    The principal has been booked and arrested under abetment charges because he did not take any action, when the incident came into his knowledge. Sources said both the teacher and the principal were in police custody. The police have also registered a case against unidentified protesters for taking law into their hands.

    Sources in the police told Dawn that the protesters including religious groups’ activists took law into their hands and ransacked school’s three buildings and burnt owner’s car without investigating the issue.

    Sources alleged that the case had been built on the basis of a photocopy, which carried derogatory remarks about the Holy Prophet. They claimed that the photocopy was of a book, of which a page was torn and the available pages’ text became blasphemous. Sources alleged that the person, who distributed the photocopy, had also translated the available English text into Urdu.

    The residents of Ravi Road area had besieged the school building late on Tuesday night and continued to protest on Wednesday and eventually torched owner’s car and ransacked school’s three buildings in the area. The fire brigade was denied access to the area. A heavy contingent of police also clashed with protesters.

    MNA Mian Marghoob and MPA Khwaja Imran Nazir urged the protesters to let the police investigate the matter. They assured the protesters that the government would also hold an inquiry into the incident and all those involved would be brought to book.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    Not only would the police investigate it but the government would hold an inquiry too. Wow they're dedicated to the upholding of the law. I wonder will the inquiry deal with the arson or vigilantism.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    robindch wrote: »
    In Pakistan, protesters ransack a school whose headmaster is alleged to have acted in a manner perceived as contrary to the tenets of islam.

    What's interesting here is that Pakistani law apparently says it's not enough just to snitch on people who blaspheme, but also to snitch on people who witness blasphemy but don't report it.

    I'm open to correction here, but I don't believe that even the Russian Communists required this kind of third-order snitching.

    ...I think early Calvinists did, though. Cheerful lot.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭Banbh


    Not only did the Soviet Union - the "Russian Communists" as you say - require that citizens report law-breakers but it is general throughout the world, though until recently members of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland claimed that this did not apply to them.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Banbh wrote: »
    Not only did the Soviet Union - the "Russian Communists" as you say - require that citizens report law-breakers but it is general throughout the world, though until recently members of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland claimed that this did not apply to them.
    Yes. I probably should have made it clearer -- the idea that a person is guilty of a crime if he/she didn't report when somebody else commits a "crime" against an idea. So far as I'm aware, non-reporting of a crime is generally only criminal if the non-reported crime itself is criminal and most blasphemy laws (again so far as I'm aware) relegate blasphemy as a civil offence, or the equivalent in the legal system concerned.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ^^^ On, cough, mature reflection, isn't blasphemy generally a criminal offence -- ie, one in which the state is aggrieved party, rather than a civil offence where some other citizen must initiate a prosecution?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,858 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    All I said was, this piece of halibut... OW!

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    Yes. I probably should have made it clearer -- the idea that a person is guilty of a crime if he/she didn't report when somebody else commits a "crime" against an idea. So far as I'm aware, non-reporting of a crime is generally only criminal if the non-reported crime itself is criminal and most blasphemy laws (again so far as I'm aware) relegate blasphemy as a civil offence, or the equivalent in the legal system concerned.

    Puts me in mind of MacCarthyism - Are you a Commie? Do you know any Commie's. Why didn't you report them? Tell us their names now or else...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Puts me in mind of MacCarthyism - Are you a Commie? Do you know any Commie's. Why didn't you report them? Tell us their names now or else...

    Blackmailing a mod this never ends well. But we'll always have Dades anyway.
    So long Rob.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Jernal wrote: »
    Blackmailing a mod this never ends well. But we'll always have Dades anyway.
    So long Rob.

    Rob will be fine - he can always claim he's commie+


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Do you know any Commie's. Why didn't you report them? Tell us their names now or else...
    226771.jpg


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Meanwhile, some more news in from the "Religion of Peace".

    Mother murdered son for 'failing to learn the Koran'

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9648856/Mother-murdered-son-for-failing-to-learn-the-Koran.html
    Telegraph wrote:
    Sara Ege used a stick to beat seven-year-old Yaseen “like a dog” if he couldn’t recite passages from the Islamic text. The beatings were so brutal that the boy died from his injuries, and his mother tried to burn the body to destroy the evidence, Cardiff Crown Court was told. Yaseen was originally thought to have died in the house fire. But a post-mortem examination showed Mrs Ege had been beating and abusing her little boy in the months leading up to his murder.

    In a video recording of her interview with police, Mrs Ege told them: “I was trying to teach him the Koran. “I was getting more and more frustrated. If he didn’t read it properly I would be very angry — I would hit him. “We had a high target. I wanted him to learn 35 pages in three months. “I promised him a new bike if he could do it. But Yaseen wasn’t very good — after a year of practice he had only learnt a chapter.”

    The court heard Mrs Ege, 32, a university graduate, and her husband, Yousuf, had enrolled Yaseen in advanced classes at their local mosque. They wanted him to become a hafiz — an Islamic term for someone who memorises the Koran.
    Yaseen was coming to the end of a three-month trial period at the mosque, and Ege was keen for him to impress his Imam. Mrs Ege told officers: “I was getting all this bad stuff in my head, like I couldn’t concentrate, I was getting angry too much, I would shout at Yaseen all the time.”

    She also hit him with a hammer, a rolling pin and a slipper, as well as repeatedly punching him, the court heard. She would allegedly lock him in the shed, tie him to a door, and force him to do press-ups. In the months after Yaseen’s death, Mrs Ege told a doctor she been told to kill him by Shaitan — an Islamic name for the devil, the court was told.
    She said: “I have become so harsh, I even killed my own son.” Her husband, 38, denies causing or allowing the death of a child by not stopping the beatings.

    The trial continues.

    Acid attack pair killed daughter

    http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/acid-attack-pair-killed-daughter-3280496.html
    Police in Pakistan have arrested a couple for allegedly killing their 15-year-old daughter by throwing acid on her because she supposedly had an affair with a boy, according to officials.

    Local government official Masood-ur-Rehman says the couple were arrested on Tuesday in Pakistan-administered Kashmir.

    Police officer Imtiaz Ali says the parents confessed to killing the girl a day earlier because they believed she had sullied the family's honour.

    He said on Friday that a post-mortem examination confirmed that the girl died of acid burns.

    Honour killings are widespread in Pakistan, where scores of women are murdered every year for marriages or relationships not approved by their families.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I sometimes miss dead one's attempts to blame heinous sh*t like that in the corrupt west...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,753 ✭✭✭fitz0


    robindch wrote: »

    So, kissing someone sullies a family's honour but murder doesn't? Something is quite wrong with your moral compass if you can agree with this.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Straight from the desk of Captain F*cking Obvious, but it's interesting to see that somebody has finally woken up:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/rowena-mason/9654502/Churches-not-necessarily-for-public-good-says-charity-watchdog.html
    Telegraph wrote:
    Churches not necessarily for public good, says charity watchdog

    Its officials decided that religion is not always for “the public benefit” as it denied charitable status to the Plymouth Brethren, an exclusive Christian group, for one of its churches in Devon. In a letter to the Plymouth Brethren, the watchdog set out its most recent decision that “there is no presumption that religion generally, or at any more specific level, is for the public benefit, even in the case of Christianity or the Church of England”.

    The Charity Commission has been in a long running battle with independent schools over how they should get charitable status. However, this is thought to be the first time it has denied the label to a religious group on the grounds that it does not advance public benefit. The Plymouth Brethren, an evangelical movement whose 16,000 believers try to keep themselves separate from the outside world, have been in a lengthy fight with the watchdog over the issue.

    The group has already appealed to the charity tribunal and is intending to take its battle to the European Court of Human Rights if necessary. The letter emerged in evidence to the Public Administration Select Committee, which is investigating the work of the Charity Commission. Some MPs are now concerned that the commission could start denying charitable status to a growing number of religious groups.

    Charlie Elphicke, a member of the committee and the MP for Dover and Deal, believes the commission is “committed to the suppression of religion”. At the hearing, he told the Plymouth Brethren elders that they were “the little guys being picked on to start off a whole series of other churches who will follow you there."

    Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury, has said he is a "very concerned" about the warning.

    BTW, is the European Court of Human Rights good or bad these days? I can't keep up with the latest religious flip-flop.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    robindch wrote: »
    Straight from the desk of Captain F*cking Obvious, but it's interesting to see that somebody has finally woken up:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/journalists/rowena-mason/9654502/Churches-not-necessarily-for-public-good-says-charity-watchdog.html



    BTW, is the European Court of Human Rights good or bad these days? I can't keep up with the latest religious flip-flop.

    Ah yes -The Plymouth Brethren. They really are some kind of special.
    A certain infamous Mr Aleister Crowleywas raised Plymouth Brethren - here is just one of his tirades about them http://hermetic.com/crowley/worlds-tragedy/the-plymouth-brethren.html


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ah yes -The Plymouth Brethren. They really are some kind of special.
    Yes, I've come across them before. Popette was, mirabile dictu, involved with a similar crowd in Dublin years ago.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,371 ✭✭✭Obliq


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Ah yes -The Plymouth Brethren. They really are some kind of special.
    A certain infamous Mr Aleister Crowleywas raised Plymouth Brethren - here is just one of his tirades about them http://hermetic.com/crowley/worlds-tragedy/the-plymouth-brethren.html

    Interesting then that the infamous Mr.A.C. preached "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", considering what he attributes to the Plymouth Brethren in that passage! "....Of course the practice of finding a text for everything means ultimately “I will do as I like”"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Obliq wrote: »
    Interesting then that the infamous Mr.A.C. preached "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law", considering what he attributes to the Plymouth Brethren in that passage! "....Of course the practice of finding a text for everything means ultimately “I will do as I like”"

    It's all about the context innit.




    :pac:


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,473 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Catholic bishop admits - "We need to have less separation between Church and State”. Looks like he's pushing upwards to me.

    http://dynamicshift.org/archives/influential-catholic-archbishop-end-church-state-separation
    The most powerful Catholic leader in Minnesota told a mother to either change her mind about her gay son or plan on going to hell. Which helps explain why many would like to tell Archbishop John Nienstedt to do the same.

    What the heavenly response is to all this damnation is unknown. Except to a chosen few, if we are to believe them. Nienstedt seems confident God will support his judgments of the mother and countless others who’ve trespassed into his wrath over the years—many, like the mother, in relationship with GLBT people.

    Whether Nienstedt has converted anyone in the three decades since his ordination is unclear. What is clear is that the bishop is not praised for being compassionate. Public consensus and Neinstedt’s own stiff communications convey little evidence he is. What all—including the Bishop—agree on, is that his motives extend well beyond his religion.

    Politics needs Religion?

    The man is on a political mission. He told me as much, himself.

    I doubt Nienstedt expected his revelation would get much past our short but respectful conversation last December. Though I shared that my personal and professional values had me very concerned about institutionally propagandized polarization, including by religions. Still, we didn’t know each other until then. I’m sure if we had, the Bishop would never have spoken with me with such candor, if at all.

    This was after a Mass in economically distressed North Minneapolis, Minnesota. Where in his sermon the bishop spoke of St. Peter, the “Rock” and founder of the Catholic church, who ominously “informed us that the world as we know it will be consumed in flames, giving way to a new heaven and a new earth.” It ended with Nienstedt’s “call to examine our consciences in regard to our daily attitudes and actions.” He posed rhetorical questions for all to consider: “What am I like when no one is looking? And how have I helped the poor? And “What kind of an example do I give others?”

    These parting questions struck me as curious, given what I knew of the man. Still, I resisted the urge to judge. I hoped to take this rare opportunity to hear his views first hand. At a pancake breakfast in the church hall after Mass, I chose questions similar to his to orient our discussion and get a better sense of him.

    [...]


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,248 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Thought this the best thread for this story.
    TV3's psychics breach code again

    A claim from TV3 that pregnancy is not “strictly considered to be a health issue” has been dismissed by the Broadcasting Authority of Ireland as it upheld four complaints against the controversial Psychic Readings Live programme which the station broadcasts.
    While TV3 did admit that "the provision of psychic services is not an exact science" it robustly defended the programme in the face of a growing number of complaints which accused it of exploiting vulnerable people for commercial gain.
    Bet they didn't see that coming. (Sorry, it had to be said)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1109/breaking48.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    pauldla wrote: »
    Thought this the best thread for this story.

    Bet they didn't see that coming. (Sorry, it had to be said)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1109/breaking48.html

    What's the consequence of breaking the rules though? Will they be fined? Will they be made retract those statements on air?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,775 ✭✭✭✭Gbear


    pauldla wrote: »
    Thought this the best thread for this story.

    Bet they didn't see that coming. (Sorry, it had to be said)

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1109/breaking48.html

    Does it annoy anyone else when they look at threads that function under the assumption that psychics aren't bull****?

    It really pisses me off. Religion is vague enough that it can kinda get away with being nonsensical. Alternative medicine makes very specific and testable claims.

    We know how psychics work - cold reading. They're all either con-artists or have deluded themselves into thinking the cold reading they've happened upon is actually magic. There's no "the lord works in mysterious ways" ****e to hide behind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    robindch wrote: »
    BTW, is the European Court of Human Rights good or bad these days? I can't keep up with the latest religious flip-flop.
    I lean towards them being good, but will reserve final judgement until they decide the case of the woman complaining about not being allowed to wear a necklace at work, which was against company policy, and the two people fighting for their right to be bigots and discriminate against an entire section of the population.

    MrP


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 39,858 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    I'm only posting this to move the thread onto a new page so we don't have to look at that horrible eyes peeled image any more :)

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



This discussion has been closed.
Advertisement