Do you Speak Irish?

An Coilean · 24-10-2012 08:50PM

tehjimmeh wrote: »

In theory they could do other subjects, which many would argue are a better use of time.

Unfortunately, the depressing reality of the modern education system is that exams are taught, not subjects. In this respect, I'm a little skeptical as to what added value there would be for students. The "why can't students speak Irish after 14 years of learning it?" question is often asked, but the bigger issue is that your average student comes out of secondary school no more able to critically analyze the works of Shakespeare or intuitively perform partial integration than communicate through Irish. Sure, they can rattle off English notes they've learned off by heart, and know which numbers to plug into a formula to get a maths result, the same way they've learned those Irish essays off without understanding a word of them, but they're generally completely void of any real skills in critical thinking or problem solving.

Some people say we just need to change the way Irish is taught, others say we need to scrap it, as no one ever gains anything of benefit by learning it. I say we need to change the way everything is taught, and scrap this awful teaching to exams system. Once we get to that point, then we can evaluate things like what should be compulsory and what should be optional. As it stands, if you were to make Irish optional, students would replace it with a subject that would actually be easier to gain high marks for their precious points in, and still not really learn anything of value.

</hugecynic>

Unfortunatly true, the point that the amount spent on Irish not being saveable is that if they are alowed to chose something else other than Irish, no money is saved by the state, it will still cost the same money to do something else.

As far as teaching to exams go, teacher education courses do their best to address the problem of learning by rote methods, the problem is in the structure of the exams and points system.
Most teachers know that the way they teach does not really benefit learning, but feel obliged to help their students get as many points as possible.

opti0nal · 24-10-2012 08:59PM

An Coilean wrote: »

An Cominiséir Teanga has advised that they be pfoduced only electrtonically in Irish or English.

That was very a very minor concession by the Commissioner. Physical printing is the least of the costs. Translation and layout are quite expensive. And, let's not lose sight of the far more expensive demands of the OLA - relating to public-facing online systems and making available of Irish-speaking officials on any subject, as demanded, with heavy penalties threatened for non-compliance.

An Coilean wrote: »

Unfortunatly true, the point that the amount spent on Irish not being saveable is that if they are alowed to chose something else other than Irish, no money is saved by the state, it will still cost the same money to do something else.

But that something else could be far more beneficial. Let's face it - after years of forcible Irish lessons, the end-product is at best the ability to speak about five phrases in Irish: (Please, thank you, kiss my ass...) which could be learned in one hour.

An Coilean wrote: »

... but speaking Irish is a sure sign of some seriously sinster motives.

The Main Aim.

An Coilean · 24-10-2012 09:11PM

opti0nal wrote: »

That was very a very minor concession by the Commissioner. Physical printing is the least of the costs. Translation and layout are quite expensive. And, let's not lose sight of the far more expensive demands of the OLA - relating to public-facing online systems and making available of Irish-speaking officials on any subject, as demanded, with heavy penalties threatened for non-compliance.

Ohh, heavy penalties for non compliance, Very threatning sounding.
Do you accept that in no case is not speaking Irish considered as Non Compliance?

Of course an Irish and English speaking civil servant is no more expencive than an English only speaking civil servant, so where this extra expense is coming from is beyond me.

But that something else could be far more beneficial. Let's face it - after years of forcible Irish lessons, the end-product is at best the ability to speak about five phrases in Irish: (Please, thank you, kiss my ass...) which could be learned in one hour.

The current system of teaching Irish in the education system is not delivering value for money, no one has argued that it is. But the money spent on Irish is not saveable and the potential benefit of directing it elsewhere is highly debatable.

The Main Aim.

There you go with the gaeilge-phobia again.

Chips Lovell · 24-10-2012 09:12PM

An Coilean wrote: »

I know that for the Clare example, the actual cost was only just over a third of that reported, the newspaper that reported on it in the first place got it wrong.
The main point though is that these reports are not produced for public consumption, its just a protocol of administration that they be prodiced and made available, An Cominiséir Teanga has advised that they be pfoduced only eletrtonically in Irish or English.
The reality of the case is that the English version of these reports are rarely requested also, again they are not really produced to satisfy demand bud because of protocol.

Well I for one have read annual reports and development plans in English. But this is beside the point.

Are you actually arguing that because not many people read these documents in English as it is, there's no harm in spending even more money on producing them in Irish, where even less people will read them?

Whatever way you try to spin it, we're spending money on services that there is zero demand for.

An Coilean · 24-10-2012 09:17PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Well I for one have read annual reports and development plans in English. But this is beside the point.

Are you actually arguing that because not many people read these documents in English as it is, there's no harm in spending even more money on producing them in Irish, where even less people will read them?

Whatever way you try to spin it, we're spending money on services that there is zero demand for.

Of course we are spending money on services there is little demand for, whether it is in Irish or English, thats Government. These reports are not produced because there is an economically viable demand for therm, they are produced because it is a function of government to produce them, in Irish and English, focusing on the lack ofdemand for them in one language and ingoring the lack of demand for them in the other is nonsence.

WanabeOlympian · 24-10-2012 09:18PM

As a fluent Irish speaker I love having services in Irish. I always use them if they are available. :-) Some examples of ones i've used... nct booking, drivers license and test, motor tax, bank of ireland ATM, revenue commissioners. I always read irish bit of bilingual signs, on roads, supermarkets, local shops. It's cool!! I never demand a service in Irish like some eejits. If it's advertised as available in Irish I use it. Fair play to them for trying to have a few things as Gaeilge. Generally, in real life I find people love Irish and are very favourable towards it. Boards is another planet it seems :-)

I'm not sure about the money thing... Manchán said once on TG4 the irish government spends more on stationery than it does on the language, plus i think a lot comes from the national lottery. As far as I know, the British government spends more on welsh/ scots gaelic than the irish government. Could be totally wrong, but I'm sure someone on boards will correct me ;-)

opti0nal · 24-10-2012 09:28PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ohh, heavy penalties for non compliance, Very threatning sounding. Do you accept that in no case is not speaking Irish considered as Non Compliance?

The law is on the books. It just has not yet been applied. No doubt 'your day will come'.

An Coilean wrote: »

Of course an Irish and English speaking civil servant is no more expencive than an English only speaking civil servant, so where this extra expense is coming from is beyond me.

If there is, no Irish-speaking official available for a particular subject, what do you do? You get the Language Commissioner to put pressure on the relevant department to force somebody to learn Irish or to hire somebody based, not on their expertese, but their Irish-speaking ability.

An Coilean wrote: »

The current system of teaching Irish in the education system is not delivering value for money, no one has argued that it is. But the money spent on Irish is not saveable and the potential benefit of directing it elsewhere is highly debatable.

That's a very weak argument for the continuation of forcing children to learn Irish. Is that because you cannot bear the huge loss of power that would come with releasing children from the obligation to attend Irish language classes? After 80 years it is very clear that the reason of the failure of compulsory Irish is not bad teaching but that most children simply don't want to speak Irish.

Put the children, not the Irish language, first...please?

An Coilean wrote: »

There you go with the gaeilge-phobia again.

Tell us about the Main Aim, and what groups subscribe to it?

marky1905 · 24-10-2012 09:34PM

Silly, stupid language, even worse than welsh!!

Whats the irish word for television and microwave?

An Coilean · 24-10-2012 09:40PM

marky1905 wrote: »

Silly, stupid language, even worse than welsh!!

Whats the irish word for television and microwave?

Not sure about microwave, Television is Teilifíse.

The Teili bit is borrowed from Greek, gust like the Tele in the English vesion, the físe bit comes from Fís, the Irish for vision. Whats yout point exactly?

WanabeOlympian · 24-10-2012 09:42PM

marky is only trying to wind ye up haha

what's the irish for 'attention seeker'? :P

opti0nal · 24-10-2012 09:50PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Not sure about microwave, Television is Teilifíse. The Teili bit is borrowed from Greek, gust like the Tele in the English vesion, the físe bit comes from Fís, the Irish for vision. Whats yout point exactly?

As times progress people adapt their language accommodate new things or ideas. Sometimes they just bring in new words. Sometimes, to adapt to radically changed circumstances, they adopt a whole new language. That is what has happened in Ireland.

English is the new Irish. It fits our needs better in the world we live in.

Language is just an accessory of a culture. When our culture changes (as it has) so does our language, to reflect the new cultural reality.

Chips Lovell · 24-10-2012 09:56PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Focusing on the lack ofdemand for them in one language and ingoring the lack of demand for them in the other is nonsence.

It isn't actually. They have to exist and that means producing them in one language. Dublin City Council can't, for example, decided, "we're not producing an annual report this year because too few people read it".

What you appear to be arguing here is that because there is a low demand for a document in English, this justifies additional expense for its translation and reproduction in Irish, for which there is even less demand.

How does spending money on services that nobody wants make any sense?

marky1905 · 24-10-2012 10:03PM

Ask An coilean maybe she'll tell ya!! Me don't speak nonsense!

24-10-2012 10:08PM

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

... As far as I know, the British government spends more on welsh/ scots gaelic than the irish government. Could be totally wrong, but I'm sure someone on boards will correct me ;-)

Are you now telling us that the Irish Government wastes money on Welsh/Scots Gaelic as well as throwing good money after bad on Irish Gaelic?

gbee · 25-10-2012 07:46AM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Whatever way you try to spin it, we're spending money on services that there is zero demand for.

Minuscule anyway, I can't remember the exact issue, a referendum or a government report that cost something like €400,000 to produce an Irish version and one single copy was sold at €5

WanabeOlympian · 25-10-2012 10:30AM

Some big businesses are using bilingual signage and services too, out of their own free will. They don't get a penny from us tax payers to do it. Makes you think, why Tesco, for instance, went to bother of having signs as Gaeilge too? or that there are supermacs menus as Gaeilge and you can order your meal in certain Supermacs , in Galway anyway, in Irish, not that I'd ever eat there unless i was steaming... Food companies are adding Irish to their labels..etc.. etc.. shops fronts in Galway are in Irish... no one is making them!! So put that in your pipe and smoke it :P

But here's where I agree with ye... the whole translating of reports and spending a fortune on it. Come on. I'd rather change the law to, if requested then translate it. I guess acts of parliament would be exceptions.

I'd rather see the money go to the genuine promotion at local level of the language in sports clubs etc... throw the money at sports facilities and add a bit of Gaeilge to it to promote the language.

That way we all get state of the art sports facilities badly needed on this tiny island of ours. Imagine having sports facilities on power with other EU countries, it'd be mad craic and we might win a few medals more at the olympics.

Also we could throw the money at music education in our schools. Seemingly, the music education here is ****e and we could change that. Don't mind putting the money into health and all that stuff. That will always be ****e no matter how much money they throw at it. The sports and music would actually improve our standard of living by improving our society...

Did anyone read all of that? If you did, fair play. ;-)

25-10-2012 11:01AM

WanabeOlympian wrote: »

Some big businesses are using bilingual signage and services too, out of their own free will. They don't get a penny from us tax payers to do it......
.......Did anyone read all of that? If you did, fair play. ;-)

I read all of it, it's still early but easily a contender for funniest post of the day.
Fair play.

25-10-2012 11:48AM

An Coilean wrote: »

There are indeed two official languages, I didn't deny that, only one national language though, and you can call me all the names under the sun, it doesn't change that fact.

Over the years I've been called names - some of them 'under the sun' but most of them in Ireland - for my lack of enthusiasm for a language of which I have little or no knowledge.
They usually come in a 'punchy' two word package;
West-Brit, Self-Hating(Irishman), Uncle Tom (once).

Notwithstanding the obvious, I never had a two-word witty rejoinder at the ready.
However, having read and contributed to this thread, I now think that my best riposte might be two words that encapsulate the zealotry and pettiness of the Irish language Hawks.

LANA BUS

old hippy · 25-10-2012 12:29PM

9959 wrote: »

Over the years I've been called names - some of them 'under the sun' but most of them in Ireland - for my lack of enthusiasm for a language of which I have little or no knowledge.
They usually come in a 'punchy' two word package;
West-Brit, Self-Hating(Irishman), Uncle Tom (once).

Notwithstanding the obvious, I never had a two-word witty rejoinder at the ready.
However, having read and contributed to this thread, I now think that my best riposte might be two words that encapsulate the zealotry and pettiness of the Irish language Hawks.

LANA BUS

Yeah, I've had those epithets chucked at me. Mostly from armchair patriots and alleged 'RA supporters. It just showcases their own prejudices and ignorances. Only yesterday (on a now locked thread) someone used the old as gaeilge on me, when I was seeking an answer from them.

I have no problem with the Irish language, I sometimes wish I could speak it but it's of no relevance in my daily life and will never be. My niece is picking it up quite nicely and that's great for her, am not sure how handy it will come in but fair play all the same.

It is a beautiful sounding language, if most imcomprehendble to me.

25-10-2012 01:20PM

old hippy wrote: »

Yeah, I've had those epithets chucked at me. Mostly from armchair patriots and alleged 'RA supporters. It just showcases their own prejudices and ignorances. Only yesterday (on a now locked thread) someone used the old as gaeilge on me, when I was seeking an answer from them.

I have no problem with the Irish language, I sometimes wish I could speak it but it's of no relevance in my daily life and will never be. My niece is picking it up quite nicely and that's great for her, am not sure how handy it will come in but fair play all the same.

It is a beautiful sounding language, if most imcomprehendble to me.

'Old Hippy', at last I've found something on which we can disagree.
I don't think it's 'beautiful sounding' nor do I think it's 'ugly sounding', no more or less beautiful or ugly than say, Icelandic.
Good luck to you, I've read some of your posts on other threads and IMO you're a rock of sense!

old hippy · 26-10-2012 12:24PM

9959 wrote: »

'Old Hippy', at last I've found something on which we can disagree.
I don't think it's 'beautiful sounding' nor do I think it's 'ugly sounding', no more or less beautiful or ugly than say, Icelandic.
Good luck to you, I've read some of your posts on other threads and IMO you're a rock of sense!

I'm surprised I didn't develop of complex over the language, considering how it was "taught" to us in school and the way some (I stress "some") speakers looked on you as dirt if you didn't love it the way they did

I always liked Flann's "An Beal Bocht" which lampooned those I mention above and the tragic prose of Peig. I recommend it - though, like me, you'll read the English version (which loses little in translation, I'm told) "The Poor Mouth".

I guess I've always like the sounds of different languages, accents - it always astounds me how some people (not referring to you) can get all hot and bothered over how someone else speaks

An Coilean · 26-10-2012 12:37PM

opti0nal wrote: »

Everytime I use an ATM, I get asked if I want Irish or English. This should be a saved option so I can register my native language and not be prompted all of the time.

But, I guess some GaleGoer decided it would be cool to hassle people to try a 'coopla****le' every time they wanted access to their cash.

Ha, you were actually that ridiculous that you got your own Meme.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php?fbid=450012388378082&set=a.366020560110599.84264.329177173794938&type=1&theater

Chinasea · 26-10-2012 01:21PM

Looking at the news the other day when the student teachers were up in arms about the pay cuts I noticed that ALL, if not every single one of them were the stereotypical Irish.

To become a 'teacher' in Ireland you need to be fluent in Irish and must pass a rigorous aural Irish language examination.

How then, will these students possibly have an understanding therefore of so called non nationals?

WanabeOlympian · 26-10-2012 03:23PM

A lot non nationals love Irish. One example, a gaelscoil near me has lots kids from Nigerian parents. They love the language and culture and partake in all the events. I guess maybe some of these kids will be future teachers and be fluent in the language. If a person wants to be a teacher then if they are incapable or unwilling of learning Irish, then I'd rather hire the person who is hard working and motivated and recognises this is a requirement of the job and gets on with it.

opti0nal · 26-10-2012 06:45PM

An Coilean wrote: »

Ha, you were actually that ridiculous that you got your own Meme.

Ah, Gaelic insults and sarcasm: it's done more for English-speaking than hundreds of years of oppression.

tehjimmeh · 26-10-2012 07:08PM

Having to push an extra button on the ATM is genuinely annoying IMO. You often want to get money out ASAP, and the damned things are slow as hell in the first place. I don't really see the minimal amount of text displayed on an ATM, or should I say UMB, that I'm never going to really consciously read, being in Irish really benefiting me or enhancing my language skills much.

However, ultimately the issue isn't really Irish being offered, its that the perf and UI are awful.

26-10-2012 07:32PM

I must admit that the Facebook page posted by 'An Coilean' is hilarious, particularly the small photo of the rugged native Irish speaker playing guitar (trad. Irish of course) in the Knockmealdown Mountains.
I'm curious to know why journalist Kevin Myers gets a mention in one of the - doubtless side-splitting - comments, could it be praise for the outspoken, English-speaking Englishman with the 'disgusting' English accent, eh possibly not.

DDC1990 · 27-10-2012 09:38AM

9959 wrote: »

I must admit that the Facebook page posted by 'An Coilean' is hilarious, particularly the small photo of the rugged native Irish speaker playing guitar (trad. Irish of course) in the Knockmealdown Mountains.
I'm curious to know why journalist Kevin Myers gets a mention in one of the - doubtless side-splitting - comments, could it be praise for the outspoken, English-speaking Englishman with the 'disgusting' English accent, eh possibly not.

Its because he shíts down on the Irish language quite regularly.

I don't mind that TBH, because nobody has taken him seriously since his "mothers of bastards" article.

It doesn't matter that he's English. If I went to Wales and told them that their language was pointless, horrible etc. I'd expect a bit of a backlash.

Anyway, Its not like he's going to give a shít about a few comments on a facebook page which he will never read.

opti0nal · 27-10-2012 02:19PM

DDC1990 wrote: »

Its because he shíts down on the Irish language quite regularly.

I think it might be more accurate to say that he directs quite eloquent and funny tirades at the Irish language establishment.

Anyone who is appalled by the huge financial waste involved, the implicit abuse of children's rights and the very big lies being told is likely to understand his anger.

For example:

....the alleged €60m financial "losses" that would be incurred by the Gaeltacht generally and in particular the 672 Irish-speaking homes that take in students. (Untrue, of course: young people will still go to the Gaeltacht, if only to simultaneously lose their virginity and contract pneumonia).

The Concos logic is apparently that every student in this Republic should spend 1,500 hours learning Irish, or 15pc of total teaching time, at a cost to the state of €500m a year, so that 672 boarding houses in the Gaeltacht are kept in business. There are simpler ways to run soup kitchens. But this is what happens when you politicise "culture": language becomes the only commodity available in a false marketplace dominated by hysteria, self-delusion and coercion.

It was remarkably self-restrained of him not to point out that after 1,500 hours of obligatory Irish lessons for the past 80 years or so, and a current cost of €500m yearly, there is no benefit, except to those paid to enforce the lessons.

WanabeOlympian · 27-10-2012 02:55PM

I thought the Irish government spent more money on stationery than the Irish language??

Do you Speak Irish?

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