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How Clean is Triathlon overall

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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    RayCun wrote: »
    But that's an argument that proves too much. No journalist would then say anything bad, because it is impossible to get evidence and the backlash from fans isn't worth it. And yet bad things continue to be said, just not about doping.

    I'd love to copy and paste this thread into the soccer forum. :D
    I'd be watching my back on the walk home!!

    I agree, one would expect a little more to be written in mainstream media about PEDs in football. The only way cycling can get into the papers in this country (and most other places) is when theres drugs involved. But while nobody fails a test then its easy to turn a blind eye. Cycling has been doing it for years. Spanish riders seem to still think Lance is innocent because he never failed a test and theres no evidence. I remember reading an article once, but I've found it impossible to find since, where Zidane talked about going to a Swiss (I think) clinic for a "pick me up" before Euro 2000 (maybe is was 04?). If you trawl the internet theres plenty of speculation about drugs in football (most of it seems to be cocaine though :pac:). And of course everything on the internet is 100% true.

    No 100% clean or anything close to it. We've seen from Lance that doping, and beating the controls, is a matter of money. The more money involved, the greater the rewards, and we've seen in recent years that money is a much bigger motivator for most footballers (Man City or Anzhi Makhachkala anyone??). No doubt there is a problem in Triathlon too. The same PEDs that have been abused in Cycling and long distance running are going to have obvious benefits to a triathlete. I hope its not widespread here, and I know that there was doping controls at Beast of the East this year, and hopefully other races too.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    BennyMul wrote: »
    Peter I fully agree with you in principle, but risking your health taking drugs or sitting on a wheel are not the same.

    of course for the person thats taking it there is a difference.
    the person that gets cheated dosnt really care how they get cheated.






    but in your opinion as a coach, how many of your athletes would take stuff is they were guarenteed to win thier A race and not get caught?
    i am agnostic, but maybe this question was answered many thousand years ago by adam and eva that we are not perfect .....
    and i dodnt think much has changed....

    but in all seriousness, I would see midlife crisis athletes at much higher risk than my good athletes that are working hard.
    People that work honestly hard and understand that it is about consistency, tend to have more patience than the guys that think they can buy quick success. and every 2 weeks buy something new.


    and since i make way too much fun of those guys that buy the gear without wanting to do the training - I tend to deter those from coming to me.....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Brick Session


    Ok lads I give in, I will admit it

    I put wheat grass powder on my porridge :eek:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    peter kern wrote: »
    but in all seriousness, I would see midlife crisis athletes at much higher risk than my good athletes that are working hard.

    I think that's a good point, and an interesting phenomenon. It used to be that PEDs were confined to the top level of the sport (any sport). But now there's more testing at the top level, but also the PEDs are more easily available. That article by Ulrich Fluhne linked earlier was interesting. What would be the result if there was random testing through the first 5% of finishers in every race? Are the Kona qualifying spots in IM triathlons tested?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    RayCun wrote: »

    I think that's a good point, and an interesting phenomenon. It used to be that PEDs were confined to the top level of the sport (any sport). But now there's more testing at the top level, but also the PEDs are more easily available. That article by Ulrich Fluhne linked earlier was interesting. What would be the result if there was random testing through the first 5% of finishers in every race? Are the Kona qualifying spots in IM triathlons tested?

    Are people really as simple as this thread suggests? Not picking on you Ray but seriously?

    Cop on. Doping in tri is happening, and at an AG level.

    in competition testing is useless, they are more of an IQ year than a dope test.


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    tunney wrote: »
    Are people really as simple as this thread suggests? Not picking on you Ray but seriously?

    Cop on. Doping in tri is happening, and at an AG level.

    in competition testing is useless, they are more of an IQ year than a dope test.

    I assume you're talking about Irish races here as well?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    I assume you're talking about Irish races here as well?


    of course its happening the thing is rather than putting it on the level of an athlete its more a certain character type that dope
    people with low self esteem people, that are very ruthless and people that think they can do whatever they want and on top of this people that have no character. ( at pro level the ones that worked very hard and then feel they cant make a living out of it )
    and you find those people from very slow to very very fast
    and the thing is tummey I am sure you are not on drugs, but you are the character (ie extremly compulsive and living in your 9.46 world ) that i see at high risk to take drugs ( but again in your case you are somebody that i know that dosnt draft, but still its people like you and not you that are most likely the ones that do it .
    <<snip >>


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,208 ✭✭✭shotgunmcos


    peter kern wrote: »
    .......still its people like you and not you that are most likely the ones that do it .

    eh? brett sutton esque...!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭pgibbo


    eh? brett sutton esque...!

    nevermind that.....I think it's the last line that's a bit concerning and one that could cause people to jump to conclusions about certain people

    looks like I wasn't the only one concerned by it :)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    I love the way that private conversations always become public.
    I love the way that the actual detail of what is said in private morphs before it becomes public.

    As for me doping, and me being the type that dopes. People on boards.ie would say I am many things - a pr1ck, a condescending cvnt, a total whinger, a c0ck, whatever. However the phrases "lacking in confidence", "low self-esteem", "morally ambiguous", "overly concerned with other peoples opinions" and "easily led" are not synonymous with me I'd imagine. I am the exact type of person who would never dope - nor be friends with dopers.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    So I've been accused of being the type of person that dopes......

    Lets look at the argument put forward.

    The argument suggested that the type of person that is likely to dope is a type-A personality, competive type. The type of person who wants to win at all costs. The type that drafts. Drafting is a type of cheating. So its been said that the type of person who dopes is the type of person who cheats. Makes sense. As an aside cutting a course is a type of cheating.

    It could be argued that the type of person who is unlikely to cheat, who is unlikely to draft or dope, is the type of person who when faced with a choice of doing what is easy or doing what is right does what is right, even though they know fine well that there will be long lasting and far reaching consequences for themselves.

    So I would argue that the over-riding factor in determining who is likely to dope or not is not a persons type of personality but their moral fibre, their moral code.

    Just saying.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    It would help the USADA and IOC if you could profile cheaters.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    We have snipped a few posts in this thread. The Tri community in Ireland is pretty small, and doping speculation is not permitted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28 TriWazza


    Interesting discussion.

    My own take on the whole thing is

    In LD triathlon I'm sure it goes on among professional athletes. I don't think testing both in and out of competition is at the level its needs to be and never will be if the sport remains as a sport that is governed by a company that is owned by a private equity company.

    In SC and ITU level I'm in no doubt it also goes on. The biological passport probably makes it more difficult but I'm sure it goes on. To what extent I couldn't tell you but I would guess it goes on a lot less than people would think. I think the skill set required to be successful at WTS is something that can't be achieved solely through PEDs.

    I agree with Tunney that its a confluence of factors that make an athlete (regardless of level or ability) to use PEDs. I think its easy to single out a particular personality type and say that that group is at risk of doping but I don't think its correct. Life is not black and white but rather grey.

    Do I think intentional doping goes on amongst AG athletes in Ireland? No. I wouldn't think the results suggest that and if it does I would think they are ineffective.

    I'm not even going to get into the drafting debate.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    Was out in my local pub last night and a group of 8 lads who drink there have completed an IM in the last few months, they all have a GAA background and are new to tri. 3 of them openly admitted to using some pretty serious banned substances while training this summer. I initially thought they were taking the piss but apparently not. All purchased online. In hindsight the same guys had a penchant for recreational drugs until recently so maybe it's not that surprising.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,122 ✭✭✭Bambaata


    Thats mad. I use to dj a lot and obviously would be out seeing all sorts going on. I was generally only one a few who never did anything. My reasoning was I was health conscious. I couldnt dream of taking something then and it rolls through to this area too, that and the whole cheating side of things. I could never see myself cheating, its a matter of principle for me.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    I was a big fan of recreational drugs back in my misspent (or well-spent) youth, but wouldn't see PEDs as the same sort of thing at all


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    Naively, I'd never even have considered that your average, technically recreational, athlete would be doing things like that. Pretty sickening to think that people who are thought of as being on the same level as you could be using something while you have to keep picking yourself up and dusting yourself off.

    Don't get the point, even at AG level in Ireland, it's not like it'd be for financial gain?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    RayCun wrote: »
    I was a big fan of recreational drugs back in my misspent (or well-spent) youth, but wouldn't see PEDs as the same sort of thing at all

    True but did you physically inject any of those recreational drugs? These guys were injecting PEDs and would have injected certain recreational drugs in the past, well one of them definitely. I know there is no documented link but it just seemed some sort of logical/illogical step to me.
    Naively, I'd never even have considered that your average, technically recreational, athlete would be doing things like that. Pretty sickening to think that people who are thought of as being on the same level as you could be using something while you have to keep picking yourself up and dusting yourself off.

    Don't get the point, even at AG level in Ireland, it's not like it'd be for financial gain?

    The gas thing is these guys wouldn't even feature near the top of AG results. Mid table at best. Fastest finisher was over 12 hours.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    TRR Epo? Don't answer if you don't want to.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    TRR wrote: »
    The gas thing is these guys wouldn't even feature near the top of AG results. Mid table at best. Fastest finisher was over 12 hours.

    This is the part i do not understand, not withstanding i hate fvking cheaters. Why take PED's and cheat to finish mid pack or worse:confused:


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    This is the part i do not understand, not withstanding i hate fvking cheaters. Why take PED's and cheat to finish mid pack or worse:confused:

    'Cos now they get to boast about a 12 hour IM instead of a 16 hour IM? :confused:
    Makes you wonder how many mid-packers could be doing it, no drug testing for your average recreational athlete.

    Think I need to brush up on my illegal performance enhancing drugs. Other than EPO, what is there? :pac:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,642 ✭✭✭TRR


    TRR Epo? Don't answer if you don't want to.

    EPO and testosterone. These lads wouldn't be the brightest so god only knows how much or little they were administrating. If Lances's program was sophisticated there's could be described as disorganised at best.
    This is the part i do not understand, not withstanding i hate fvking cheaters. Why take PED's and cheat to finish mid pack or worse:confused:

    Looking for shortcuts, honestly the 2 guys I had talked to over the last 9 months weren't putting the hours in. They'd be competitive with one another as well so if one took it I reckon the other would follow suit just so he would not be at a disadvantage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    TRR wrote: »
    True but did you physically inject any of those recreational drugs? These guys were injecting PEDs and would have injected certain recreational drugs in the past, well one of them definitely. I know there is no documented link but it just seemed some sort of logical/illogical step to me.

    No, and I see your point about injections.
    It's a long time since I took a pill either, and I'd be very hesitant about taking one now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    Why take PED's and cheat to finish mid pack or worse:confused:

    Shortcut to not having to put in the proper work. Somehow by fooling themselves they think they are fooling others and have some sort of upperhand. A bit like the Princess Bride, 'I know something you don't know' mindset.

    The psychology of the cheater is an area I would love to read and understand more about, simply from a curiousity point of view. Having read Chris Coopers book 'Run, swim, throw, cheat' (highly recommend it) its obvious the diminishing returns apply to the more highly trained athlete and a mid pack AGer who dopes will see such a dramatic upswing in ability without any extra work, the 'reward' is justifiable risk in their mind.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    This is the part i do not understand, not withstanding i hate fvking cheaters. Why take PED's and cheat to finish mid pack or worse:confused:

    We all know people whose self-esteem is so low they need to be constantly validated by others.

    "Oh you're great, your so fast/slim/skirts so short" etc


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    ^ you forgot "tall"


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    ^ you forgot "tall"

    No I deliberately left that out. Ulster women are strong willed and scary* and I'll be meeting his taller half at the Club Christmas party so I'm being nice so she won't beat me up.


    *married to an ulster woman


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    tunney wrote: »
    No I deliberately left that out. Ulster women are strong willed and scary* and I'll be meeting his taller half at the Club Christmas party so I'm being nice so she won't beat me up.

    *married to an ulster woman

    She will kick your a$$, i have begged her not to wear high heels out on the club night in fear of being ridiculed!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭pgibbo


    Based on how often you've mentioned the high heels over the last 2 days I'm wondering if you'll show up to the party wearing them! :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH



    His second offence apparently. 4 years is too soft.


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