Considering "Heaven"

Liamario · 25-10-2012 9:59pm #1

Can any of my fellow atheist scum provide me a concept of eternal life where I wouldn't get depressed fairly quickly.

eyescreamcone · 25-10-2012 10:10pm

Liamario wrote: »

Can any of my fellow atheist scum provide me a concept of eternal life where I wouldn't get depressed fairly quickly.

You die. - you get used as fertiliser for plants - you help make oxygen for future generations
That's it!

Liamario · 25-10-2012 10:15pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

You die. - you get used as fertiliser for plants - you help make oxygen for future generations
That's it!

HEY, stop being reasonable and rational. I'm trying to find out is there any concept of eternal life (that doesn't involve dying) where you won't want to kill yourself after a month.

PopePalpatine · 25-10-2012 10:23pm

Well, his Noodly Appendage grants beer volcanoes and sexy strippers to those who ascend into Pastafarian Heaven. R'Amen.

Liamario · 25-10-2012 10:24pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Well, his Noodly Appendage grants beer volcanoes and sexy strippers to those who ascend into Pastafarian Heaven. R'Amen.

Does one get to suckle on the juice of his meaty goodness as well?

PopePalpatine · 25-10-2012 10:24pm

Liamario wrote: »

Does one get to suckle on the juice of his meaty goodness as well?

Maybe.

Liamario · 25-10-2012 10:26pm

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Maybe.

I'm just assuming there is meatballs to go with the spaghetti. If there are no meatballs, then this is no heaven!

sponsoredwalk · 25-10-2012 11:27pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z8-RZ4eWlO4

Sulla Felix · 26-10-2012 12:10am

I always thought Buddhism was the least horrible. You have as many do overs as you need to get a high score and then you kind of melt into a conciousnessless (?) nirvana.

Evade · 26-10-2012 12:18am

Liamario wrote: »

I'm trying to find out is there any concept of eternal life (that doesn't involve dying) where you won't want to kill yourself after a month.

One where you can block certain memories temporarily so you can re-experience your favourite things for the first time over and over.

Kivaro · 26-10-2012 12:49am

Nobody is answering his question:
Heaven ................ eternal life ................... boring?

Yes, it would be very boring (after the first trillion years).

18AD · 26-10-2012 1:06am

I guess you could unltimately figure out how much capacity your brain actually has by taking in as much information as possible.

Would still forget things in heaven? It'd be an uphill struggle to test the brains capabilities. Of course that's assuming that your consciousness still possess its usual capabilities as it does when you have a brain. But if there was a limit you would simply have to see what would arise by various combinations of perfectly learned ideas. You could memorise the works of Marx and Lovecraft and then see what happened and then you'd have to replace some of Lovecraft with Electrical Engineering and see how that mixed with Marx and so on forever. At least I'd hope you could access those things and also have access to all the future ideas and theory that haven't come about yet since heaven doesn't exist in this limited time space. So you could actually have access to time travel mathematics, considering it's actually possible and something like the theory of everything.

You could also have an outstanding game of nomic.

Infinite bliss wouldn't be half bad for a while. You could probably train yourself to be synaesthetic.

I guess it would get boring after a long while though. But you could freak out people who were still alive as well. That would be very amusing. I guess if you didn't feel that nihilism was bad in this life, you probably wouldn't have a problem with it in heaven, as it seems to be a rather nihilistic place altogether.

26-10-2012 1:11am

Would heaven (and any other conception of an afterlife) not be atemporal? If so, then descriptions such as "boring" are meaningless, because boredom is essentially predicated on there being a passage of time which one is aware of. If awareness of the passage of time is no longer present, or, indeed, the very concept of time itself, at least how we currently understand it, ceases to exist once entering heaven, then boredom would be non-existent, no? If so, then heaven wouldn't be all too bad, at least if you had absolute control over what you did with your self; you could read every book, experience every experience, attempt to understand all ... and so on. I suppose it's difficult to conceive of an atemporal afterlife: in what way would the thought "I've already read this book" be framed? Already implies previously in time. Without a framework of time, too, our memories would be meaningless and the act of creating a memory impossible. So, if heaven was practically atemporal, where you were not aware of the passage of time to the degree that it could be discomforting, it would be okay, I think.

Anyway, if there existed an afterlife where boredom couldn't affect me, I had complete control over what I did with myself, had access to all books and experiences, didn't have to worship some deity, and didn't have to suffer the company of people I didn't like, then I imagine heaven wouldn't be all too bad. Still, the concept of death, as in ceasing to exist and not being aware of such, is altogether better, I think; it introduces less problems.

Liamario · 26-10-2012 1:14am

Evade wrote: »

One where you can block certain memories temporarily so you can re-experience your favourite things for the first time over and over.

That wouldn't be heaven for me to be honest. You'll soon get bored of reliving them, like groundhog day or something.

Liamario · 26-10-2012 1:19am

gvn wrote: »

Would heaven (and any other conception of an afterlife) not be atemporal? If so, then descriptions such as "boring" are meaningless, because boredom is essentially predicated on there being a passage of time which one is aware of. If awareness of the passage of time is no longer present, or, indeed, the very concept of time itself, at least how we currently understand it, ceases to exist once entering heaven, then boredom would be non-existent, no? If so, then heaven wouldn't be all too bad, at least if you had absolute control over what you did with your self; you could read every book, experience every experience, attempt to understand all ... and so on. I suppose it's difficult to conceive of an atemporal afterlife: in what way would the thought "I've already read this book" be framed? Already implies previously in time. Without a framework of time, too, our memories would be meaningless and the act of creating a memory impossible. So, if heaven was practically atemporal, where you were not aware of the passage of time to the degree that it could be discomforting, it would be okay, I think.

Anyway, if there existed an afterlife where boredom couldn't affect me, I had complete control over what I did with myself, had access to all books and experiences, didn't have to worship some deity, and didn't have to suffer the company of people I didn't like, then I imagine heaven wouldn't be all too bad. Still, the concept of death, as in ceasing to exist and not being aware of such, is altogether better, I think; it introduces less problems.

Interesting points. If we had no concept of time, then we'd be living in a haze and as you said, unable to create memories.
Your idea of heaven where you get to do what you want and how you want to do it would eventually get boring. I think we have evolved into needing some sort of challenge in life; and even if we could manifest a challenge, it wouldn't be the same- we'd know it was within our control.

The only way I think we could enjoy a heaven is to take away our humanity and to do that would make us almost like zombies.

strobe · 26-10-2012 1:24am

I like the idea of a 'disney' kinda heaven. Cloud city and all. And you get to hang out with like, play guitar with Jimi Hendrix and play chess with Billy the Kid and have a threesome with Tallulah Bankhead and xyz. Ye know the sort. And you are free to do that for as long as you want. But you don't have to worry about anyone being to busy to do something with you because everyone in heaven is omnipresent so everyone can do all kinds of thing simultaneously as they think of them. So basically, you get to heaven, start off kinda slow, chatting to Hitler about golf or whatever... see it's not on a if you did a.b.c you get in basis. Everyone get's in. But coercion is impossible as everyone is equally powerful or something like that, so the bad bastards can't really hurt anyone as if they try to then the other person can close that particular avenue of themselves off from the person doing the harm. So you do that for as long as it behooves you to. You learn how to play every musical instrument, if that's your thing, then you experience all the effects off all the big main psychoactives in every situation you could imagine them being interesting in, then you play Mega Bomderman on the Sega Megadrive with Cleopatra, then when you have done absolutely everything you think you could possibly like to do... you throw a big ass party, and when you're about ready, you step through a big 'Stargate' like blue glowy portal, that causes you to cease to exist. Or be reincarnated on earth as like a chicken in Vietnam or something... you choose the portals effects. (causa free will or...)

I think that'd be sorta nice.

Evade · 26-10-2012 1:29am

Liamario wrote: »

That wouldn't be heaven for me to be honest. You'll soon get bored of reliving them, like groundhog day or something.

How could you get bored if you don't remember already having seen / read / done it?

Liamario · 26-10-2012 1:30am

Evade wrote: »

How could you get bored if you don't remember already having seen / read / done it?

If you don't remember any of it, what's the point.

Evade · 26-10-2012 1:59am

Liamario wrote: »

If you don't remember any of it, what's the point.

No point. But if you're stuck in an afterlife for eternity, blocking memories of things you like so you can do them again seems like a good way to avoid wanting to kill yourself after a month.

Liamario · 26-10-2012 2:05am

Evade wrote: »

No point. But if you're stuck in an afterlife for eternity, blocking memories of things you like so you can do them again seems like a good way to avoid wanting to kill yourself after a month.

So basically, what you are proposing- heaven is a place where you don't want to kill yourself, because without any reference to any bad things or good things, you're just a zombie.

Evade · 26-10-2012 2:14am

Liamario wrote: »

So basically, what you are proposing- heaven is a place where you don't want to kill yourself, because without any reference to any bad things or good things, you're just a zombie.

I've read this a few times and I have no idea what you mean.

Liamario · 26-10-2012 2:18am

I just re read what your initial concept is.
Blocking memories, so things don't get boring. But then you admit that you have to have certain memories and thus a concept of time; which will inevitably lead to boredom...

Evade · 26-10-2012 2:49am

Liamario wrote: »

I just re read what your initial concept is.
Blocking memories, so things don't get boring. But then you admit that you have to have certain memories and thus a concept of time; which will inevitably lead to boredom...

Given the choice I'd go for non-existence but if you were stuck existing for eternity it would be bearable. You could end up watching your favourite film on a constant loop for eternity and it would always be like seeing it for the first time.

krudler · 26-10-2012 1:18pm

You get to spend eternity surrounded by family, which to be honest sounds more like hell, imagine christmas day dinner, but forever. And I'm supposed to WANT to go to this place?

Liamario · 26-10-2012 1:22pm

krudler wrote: »

You get to spend eternity surrounded by family, which to be honest sounds more like hell, imagine christmas day dinner, but forever. And I'm supposed to WANT to go to this place?

This is kind of why I started the thread. I wanted to know if there is a concept of heaven that could actually work, where you would not be an emotionally vegetated state.

eviltwin · 26-10-2012 1:25pm

The only thing that I like about the idea of heaven is finding out the answer to some of the mysteries, is Elvis really dead, who really killed JFK, etc etc

Apart from that I don't really like the idea of it. Sure I'd love to meet up with my dad again and have a chat but I don't really fancy sitting down with him when he'll look younger than I do or without the pleasure of a few pints.

Bannasidhe · 26-10-2012 1:25pm

Evade wrote: »

One where you can block certain memories temporarily so you can re-experience your favourite things for the first time over and over.

Alzheimer's is heaven?

:pac:

IF I had to choose it would be Valhalla - Feast, Fight, Shag then start over in perfect health the next day...tho I am wondering if there is a quiet place one can get stuck into a good saga in peace...

Nirvana as second choice...

The Christian Heaven sounds awful, as for the Perfumed Gardens of Islam - all those virgins knocking about the place would do my head in and I'm not very fond of sherbert (:p)....

robindch · 26-10-2012 1:28pm

krudler wrote: »

You get to spend eternity surrounded by family, which to be honest sounds more like hell, imagine christmas day dinner, but forever. And I'm supposed to WANT to go to this place?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzfCtGFgRSk

Bannasidhe · 26-10-2012 1:33pm

eviltwin wrote: »

The only thing that I like about the idea of heaven is finding out the answer to some of the mysteries, is Elvis really dead, who really killed JFK, etc etc

Apart from that I don't really like the idea of it. Sure I'd love to meet up with my dad again and have a chat but I don't really fancy sitting down with him when he'll look younger than I do or without the pleasure of a few pints.

I'd quite like to see my Nan again. I adored my Nan - and I'd like to meet my granddad (her husband) as by all accounts he was lovely - his nickname was 'Honey' as he was so sweet. I inherited his vast book collection so we could chat about that for the first few centuries.

Would not like to meet my other grandfather - his nickname was 'The Wassie' due to his similarity to a wasp - I remember his wife...she made a glacier look warm...

iDave · 26-10-2012 1:35pm

If everyone were like Ned Flanders there would be no need for a heaven, we'd already be there

-Homer Simpson

Bannasidhe · 26-10-2012 1:54pm

robindch wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzfCtGFgRSk

Eternity with Popette eh Robin - bet you can't wait.

Liamario · 26-10-2012 1:55pm

The rapture would be fairly close to heaven. Only reason and rationale would be left- as well as free cars, homes and less mouths to feed etc...

robindch · 26-10-2012 1:55pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Eternity with Popette eh Robin - bet you can't wait.

I'll be warming my toes at the eternal barbecue a thousand miles beneath Popette!

Bannasidhe · 26-10-2012 2:07pm

robindch wrote: »

I'll be warming my toes at the eternal barbecue a thousand miles beneath Popette!

Popette's barbecue may be hotter apparently:

The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads, "Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days."
Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (49) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation:
(H/E)4 = 50
where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798°K (525°C or 977°F)...

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. As stated in Revelations 21:8: "But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)
We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C (977°F) and the temperature of hell, less than or equal to (=>) 444.6°C (>=832.28°F). Therefore heaven is hotter than hell

http://www.greatplay.net/uselessia/articles/heavenhhell.html

MisterEpicurus · 26-10-2012 2:38pm

An atemporal eternity?

Smells of an oxymoron to me.

kylith · 26-10-2012 4:11pm

strobe wrote: »

I like the idea of a 'disney' kinda heaven. Cloud city and all. And you get to hang out with like, play guitar with Jimi Hendrix and play chess with Billy the Kid and have a threesome with Tallulah Bankhead and xyz.

Except that Hendrix is probably in hell cos of drugs, Billy the Kid is in hell because of the murdering, and the threesome is Fornication, so that's off the cards too.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Christian Heaven sounds awful, as for the Perfumed Gardens of Islam - all those virgins knocking about the place would do my head in and I'm not very fond of sherbert (:p)....

As Billy Connolly said; "54 virgins? Give me 2 flaming whores!"

nagirrac · 26-10-2012 7:00pm

Liamario wrote: »

Can any of my fellow atheist scum provide me a concept of eternal life where I wouldn't get depressed fairly quickly.

You are asking the wrong people surely? Atheists generally do not have a concept of eternal live, isn't that a spiritual view? Which brings up the question why Atheism is in the Religion and Spirituality category (unless its a religion?), but that another story..

The concept of eternity or eternal life is greatly misunderstood by its incorrect association with infinity. Infinity is an abstract concept that only appears in our mental images of the universe (mathematics and physics). It is actually best expressed in abstract art, the Endless Circle is an example. Thinking about infinity is pointless as the following mental experiment demonstrates:

A Googol is the biggest number commonly expressed in the West, it is 10^100. Buddhists have a larger number which is 10^140. You would imagine the buddhist number is closer to infinity than a Googol, but it isn't, in fact it is as far away from infinity as 1 is.

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

MrPudding · 26-10-2012 7:16pm

Liamario wrote: »

So basically, what you are proposing- heaven is a place where you don't want to kill yourself, because without any reference to any bad things or good things, you're just a zombie.

Apparently it is the view of some christian that once in heaven free will is removed. This is due to there being no sin in heaven, so your zombie reference might be closer than you intended.

MrP

Daftendirekt · 26-10-2012 8:40pm

For any afterlife to actually count as legitimately 'Heavenly', I have one fundamental requirement: I'd have to still be me. The happiness would have to come from the experience of Heaven itself - I can't be lobotomised, put on some kind of supernatural MDMA drip or otherwise manipulated into being happy.

I don't really buy the idea of an afterlife getting boring. A place like that would probably be so alien to anything in this world that the concept of 'boredom' might even be meaningless. Or there might be an infinite amount of new things to experience and learn with your infinite amount of time.

That said, for anyone who isn't a complete recluse, I think the idea is impossible, especially for people whose happiness is inextricably linked to family/friends. People's conflicting desires mean that someone would have lose out.

DazMarz · 27-10-2012 12:43am

Heaven:

-everyone looks fantastic, has a great body, great looks, etc. but also have great personalities and are decent to each other, as well as being simply stunning to look at.

-You can eat as much of whatever you want and drink as much of whatever you want and it has zero impact upon health (you're immortal anyway!) or looks.

-Endless hours can be spent whiled away on video games, films, TV shows, playing golf, playing poker, watching football/hurling/soccer/rugby, playing the aforementioned games, counting endless amounts of money...

-Endless amounts of sex with other stunning entities (and it's always brilliant)

-levels of comfort and satisfaction and bliss that we could only possibly imagine, and even then... those imaginary levels are surpassed many times over.

none of this angels, halos, singing and clouds and shít... my idea of heaven is basically an epic weekend in Vegas with a few comforts of Ireland/Europe (sports mostly) thrown in.

smokingman · 27-10-2012 12:57am

nagirrac wrote: »

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

Surely though, no matter the difference between real and perceived time, your comparison to a dream would indicate that, like a lot of religious folk, you actually prefer to not have control of your life. You wish away the days with a firm, yet deluded, and ultimately destructive belief that you will be in "a better place" when you get through this life. You claw at logic, ripping it to shreds, leaving a skeleton of false hope; a hope that distracts your gaze from the simple truth that to be "good" should be a choice and not a carrot.

Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of the religious that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of heaven diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for acceptance. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

nagirrac · 27-10-2012 2:27am

smokingman wrote: »

Surely though, no matter the difference between real and perceived time, your comparison to a dream would indicate that, like a lot of religious folk, you actually prefer to not have control of your life. You wish away the days with a firm, yet deluded, and ultimately destructive belief that you will be in "a better place" when you get through this life. You claw at logic, ripping it to shreds, leaving a skeleton of false hope; a hope that distracts your gaze from the simple truth that to be "good" should be a choice and not a carrot.

Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of the religious that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of heaven diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for acceptance. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

No, I actually could not ask for a better life than the one I have, I am and have always been anti-authoritarian, and I am not religious
next

kylith · 27-10-2012 1:04pm

nagirrac wrote: »

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

Whether it's 'all at once' or 'one thing at a time', or whether it's like a dream is irrelevant in this discussion though; you'd still be perceiving time as happening linearly so time would still appear to pass at a normal rate which would mean that you would be just as bored after a perceived month as after an actual month. And the fact that you're perceiving time as happening faster than it is means that Heaven's 'dream time' would feel even longer than actual eternity.

Sin City · 27-10-2012 1:17pm

Once we locate Heaven you can have a look for yourself

pauldla · 27-10-2012 1:58pm

Holding my kids when they were asleep after a feed. That's heaven, and the closest I can think of to nagirracs idea of eternity. The purest peace.

Bannasidhe · 27-10-2012 2:12pm

I was sitting in my living room last night sewing (I know!) while OH was reading, fire was lighting. No TV on.
In the other room son, his OH and the grandkids were all engaged in some serious discussion about form, shape and design of this years pumpkin.

Overheard the following conversation:

Hermione (precocious 6 year old): 'What are you doing that for?'
Son : 'so it can hear the trick or treaters'
Hermione : 'It can't hear!'
Son : 'I know. That's why I'm giving it ears.'
Hermione: 'But...it's a pumpkin. Pumpkins can't hear!!'
Son : 'because they have no ears...'
Hermione: 'But...it's a pumpkin...giving it ears wont work....It can't hear because...well - it's not alive!'
Son: 'Yeah - well how does it grow if it's not alive Mz Smarty Pants?'

It was a perfect moment = Heaven.

pauldla · 27-10-2012 2:15pm

^^^

We're in heaven right now, in the sense that this is as good as it gets. And you ain't gettin' any more, so make the most of it!

smokingman · 27-10-2012 11:07pm

nagirrac wrote: »

No, I actually could not ask for a better life than the one I have, I am and have always been anti-authoritarian, and I am not religious
next

Firstly; how did you not get the movie quote?
Secondly; given your post history, how can you say you're not religious? You do show the same debating style of religious posters and indeed those that profess to be not what they are.

nagirrac · 28-10-2012 12:24am

smokingman wrote: »

Secondly; given your post history, how can you say you're not religious? You do show the same debating style of religious posters and indeed those that profess to be not what they are.

Is that right.
Being religious is following a specific religious code e.g. Roman Catholic, Muslim, whatever. I grew up in rural Ireland, stopped going to mass at 14 and haven't been back since unless for funerals (out of respect for the families involved).
I am an agnostic who leans towards a "Spinoza" view of the universe but a bit more spiritual in my view of God. I also believe spirituality is a personal issue and should not be organized. You obviously have a very narrow view of the range of beliefs people have, its not just atheists and religious out there.

NIMAN · 28-10-2012 12:45am

I am not sure if there is an afterlife or not, but if there is one, I would like to think that it will not obey any of the rules that us humans are confined by.

The main one being 'time'.

People always say/argue about how heaven would be boring if it lasted forever. But perhaps our tiny minds and imagination cannot grasp the concept of what an afterlife will be like?

mickrock · 28-10-2012 6:28am

If consciousness is just a product of matter then an afterlife is implausible.

But it's plausible that consciousness is not just a product of matter.

Considering "Heaven"

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