Considering "Heaven"

Liamario

The rapture would be fairly close to heaven. Only reason and rationale would be left- as well as free cars, homes and less mouths to feed etc...

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Eternity with Popette eh Robin - bet you can't wait.

I'll be warming my toes at the eternal barbecue a thousand miles beneath Popette!

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

I'll be warming my toes at the eternal barbecue a thousand miles beneath Popette!

Popette's barbecue may be hotter apparently:

The temperature of heaven can be rather accurately computed. Our authority is the Bible, Isaiah 30:26 reads, "Moreover, the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold as the light of seven days."
Thus, heaven receives from the moon as much radiation as the earth does from the sun, and in addition seven times seven (49) times as much as the earth does from the sun, or fifty times in all. The light we receive from the moon is one ten-thousandth of the light we receive from the sun, so we can ignore that. With these data we can compute the temperature of heaven: The radiation falling on heaven will heat it to the point where the heat lost by radiation is just equal to the heat received by radiation. In other words, heaven loses fifty times as much heat as the earth by radiation. Using the Stefan-Boltzmann fourth power law for radiation:
(H/E)4 = 50
where E is the absolute temperature of the earth, 300°K (273+27). This gives H the absolute temperature of heaven, as 798°K (525°C or 977°F)...

The exact temperature of hell cannot be computed but it must be less than 444.6°C, the temperature at which brimstone or sulfur changes from a liquid to a gas. As stated in Revelations 21:8: "But the fearful and unbelieving... shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." A lake of molten brimstone [sulfur] means that its temperature must be at or below the boiling point, which is 444.6°C. (Above that point, it would be a vapor, not a lake.)
We have then, temperature of heaven, 525°C (977°F) and the temperature of hell, less than or equal to (=>) 444.6°C (>=832.28°F). Therefore heaven is hotter than hell

http://www.greatplay.net/uselessia/articles/heavenhhell.html

MisterEpicurus

An atemporal eternity?

Smells of an oxymoron to me.

kylith

strobe wrote: »

I like the idea of a 'disney' kinda heaven. Cloud city and all. And you get to hang out with like, play guitar with Jimi Hendrix and play chess with Billy the Kid and have a threesome with Tallulah Bankhead and xyz.

Except that Hendrix is probably in hell cos of drugs, Billy the Kid is in hell because of the murdering, and the threesome is Fornication, so that's off the cards too.

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The Christian Heaven sounds awful, as for the Perfumed Gardens of Islam - all those virgins knocking about the place would do my head in and I'm not very fond of sherbert (:p)....

As Billy Connolly said; "54 virgins? Give me 2 flaming whores!"

nagirrac

Liamario wrote: »

Can any of my fellow atheist scum provide me a concept of eternal life where I wouldn't get depressed fairly quickly.

You are asking the wrong people surely? Atheists generally do not have a concept of eternal live, isn't that a spiritual view? Which brings up the question why Atheism is in the Religion and Spirituality category (unless its a religion?), but that another story..

The concept of eternity or eternal life is greatly misunderstood by its incorrect association with infinity. Infinity is an abstract concept that only appears in our mental images of the universe (mathematics and physics). It is actually best expressed in abstract art, the Endless Circle is an example. Thinking about infinity is pointless as the following mental experiment demonstrates:

A Googol is the biggest number commonly expressed in the West, it is 10^100. Buddhists have a larger number which is 10^140. You would imagine the buddhist number is closer to infinity than a Googol, but it isn't, in fact it is as far away from infinity as 1 is.

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

MrPudding

Liamario wrote: »

So basically, what you are proposing- heaven is a place where you don't want to kill yourself, because without any reference to any bad things or good things, you're just a zombie.

Apparently it is the view of some christian that once in heaven free will is removed. This is due to there being no sin in heaven, so your zombie reference might be closer than you intended.

MrP

Daftendirekt

For any afterlife to actually count as legitimately 'Heavenly', I have one fundamental requirement: I'd have to still be me. The happiness would have to come from the experience of Heaven itself - I can't be lobotomised, put on some kind of supernatural MDMA drip or otherwise manipulated into being happy.

I don't really buy the idea of an afterlife getting boring. A place like that would probably be so alien to anything in this world that the concept of 'boredom' might even be meaningless. Or there might be an infinite amount of new things to experience and learn with your infinite amount of time.

That said, for anyone who isn't a complete recluse, I think the idea is impossible, especially for people whose happiness is inextricably linked to family/friends. People's conflicting desires mean that someone would have lose out.

DazMarz

Heaven:

-everyone looks fantastic, has a great body, great looks, etc. but also have great personalities and are decent to each other, as well as being simply stunning to look at.

-You can eat as much of whatever you want and drink as much of whatever you want and it has zero impact upon health (you're immortal anyway!) or looks.

-Endless hours can be spent whiled away on video games, films, TV shows, playing golf, playing poker, watching football/hurling/soccer/rugby, playing the aforementioned games, counting endless amounts of money...

-Endless amounts of sex with other stunning entities (and it's always brilliant)

-levels of comfort and satisfaction and bliss that we could only possibly imagine, and even then... those imaginary levels are surpassed many times over.

none of this angels, halos, singing and clouds and shít... my idea of heaven is basically an epic weekend in Vegas with a few comforts of Ireland/Europe (sports mostly) thrown in.

smokingman

nagirrac wrote: »

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

Surely though, no matter the difference between real and perceived time, your comparison to a dream would indicate that, like a lot of religious folk, you actually prefer to not have control of your life. You wish away the days with a firm, yet deluded, and ultimately destructive belief that you will be in "a better place" when you get through this life. You claw at logic, ripping it to shreds, leaving a skeleton of false hope; a hope that distracts your gaze from the simple truth that to be "good" should be a choice and not a carrot.

Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of the religious that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of heaven diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for acceptance. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

nagirrac

smokingman wrote: »

Surely though, no matter the difference between real and perceived time, your comparison to a dream would indicate that, like a lot of religious folk, you actually prefer to not have control of your life. You wish away the days with a firm, yet deluded, and ultimately destructive belief that you will be in "a better place" when you get through this life. You claw at logic, ripping it to shreds, leaving a skeleton of false hope; a hope that distracts your gaze from the simple truth that to be "good" should be a choice and not a carrot.

Is this not your natural state? It’s the unspoken truth of the religious that you crave subjugation. The bright lure of heaven diminishes your life’s joy in a mad scramble for acceptance. For identity. You were made to be ruled. In the end, you will always kneel.

No, I actually could not ask for a better life than the one I have, I am and have always been anti-authoritarian, and I am not religious
next

kylith

nagirrac wrote: »

Eternity is "all at once" time as opposed to "one thing at a time" time. Time as we normally experience it does not exist in eternity. It's a bit like a dream that goes on for ages and then you wake up and a few minutes have gone by.

Whether it's 'all at once' or 'one thing at a time', or whether it's like a dream is irrelevant in this discussion though; you'd still be perceiving time as happening linearly so time would still appear to pass at a normal rate which would mean that you would be just as bored after a perceived month as after an actual month. And the fact that you're perceiving time as happening faster than it is means that Heaven's 'dream time' would feel even longer than actual eternity.

Sin City

Once we locate Heaven you can have a look for yourself

pauldla

Holding my kids when they were asleep after a feed. That's heaven, and the closest I can think of to nagirracs idea of eternity. The purest peace.

Bannasidhe

I was sitting in my living room last night sewing (I know!) while OH was reading, fire was lighting. No TV on.
In the other room son, his OH and the grandkids were all engaged in some serious discussion about form, shape and design of this years pumpkin.

Overheard the following conversation:

Hermione (precocious 6 year old): 'What are you doing that for?'
Son : 'so it can hear the trick or treaters'
Hermione : 'It can't hear!'
Son : 'I know. That's why I'm giving it ears.'
Hermione: 'But...it's a pumpkin. Pumpkins can't hear!!'
Son : 'because they have no ears...'
Hermione: 'But...it's a pumpkin...giving it ears wont work....It can't hear because...well - it's not alive!'
Son: 'Yeah - well how does it grow if it's not alive Mz Smarty Pants?'

It was a perfect moment = Heaven.

pauldla

^^^

We're in heaven right now, in the sense that this is as good as it gets. And you ain't gettin' any more, so make the most of it!

smokingman

nagirrac wrote: »

No, I actually could not ask for a better life than the one I have, I am and have always been anti-authoritarian, and I am not religious
next

Firstly; how did you not get the movie quote?
Secondly; given your post history, how can you say you're not religious? You do show the same debating style of religious posters and indeed those that profess to be not what they are.

nagirrac

smokingman wrote: »

Secondly; given your post history, how can you say you're not religious? You do show the same debating style of religious posters and indeed those that profess to be not what they are.

Is that right.
Being religious is following a specific religious code e.g. Roman Catholic, Muslim, whatever. I grew up in rural Ireland, stopped going to mass at 14 and haven't been back since unless for funerals (out of respect for the families involved).
I am an agnostic who leans towards a "Spinoza" view of the universe but a bit more spiritual in my view of God. I also believe spirituality is a personal issue and should not be organized. You obviously have a very narrow view of the range of beliefs people have, its not just atheists and religious out there.

NIMAN

I am not sure if there is an afterlife or not, but if there is one, I would like to think that it will not obey any of the rules that us humans are confined by.

The main one being 'time'.

People always say/argue about how heaven would be boring if it lasted forever. But perhaps our tiny minds and imagination cannot grasp the concept of what an afterlife will be like?

mickrock

If consciousness is just a product of matter then an afterlife is implausible.

But it's plausible that consciousness is not just a product of matter.

NIMAN

Eh?

nagirrac

mickrock wrote: »

If consciousness is just a product of matter then an afterlife is implausible.

But it's plausible that consciousness is not just a product of matter.

Matter is based on probability, the universe is mostly energy with the potential for matter

smokingman

nagirrac wrote: »

Is that right.
Being religious is following a specific religious code e.g. Roman Catholic, Muslim, whatever. I grew up in rural Ireland, stopped going to mass at 14 and haven't been back since unless for funerals (out of respect for the families involved).
I am an agnostic who leans towards a "Spinoza" view of the universe but a bit more spiritual in my view of God. I also believe spirituality is a personal issue and should not be organized. You obviously have a very narrow view of the range of beliefs people have, its not just atheists and religious out there.

I'd be the first one out there to recognise that there are plenty of shades of dull grey instead of just black or white. However, even if you are "sticking it to da man" by rejecting organised religion, you're still just replacing crosses with auras, holy spirits with spirits, prayers with healing crystals.
Just because you have your own brand, doesn't make you any different to a practising catholic believing their type of makeyuppy.

nagirrac

smokingman wrote: »

I'd be the first one out there to recognise that there are plenty of shades of dull grey instead of just black or white. However, even if you are "sticking it to da man" by rejecting organised religion, you're still just replacing crosses with auras, holy spirits with spirits, prayers with healing crystals.
Just because you have your own brand, doesn't make you any different to a practising catholic believing their type of makeyuppy.

You seem very keen on telling me who I am and what I believe in. I could very easily indulge in the same. You exhibit all the traits of a dogmatic materialistic-reductionist atheist which to me is as daft a position as a creationist. In the grand scheme of things we still have an incomplete picture of the nature of reality so to decide there is nothing other than the 4 dimensional space we are aware of is to me closedminded. There are many observed effects in nature that do not fit with a standard materialistic worldview. I am confident in time science will understand and explain them but only if science is openminded enough to study them.

I have no interest in healing crystals by the way but I have replaced prayer by meditation which if you are unaware of the benefits of I can't help you.