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Should we allow undertaking?

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Comments

  • #62
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,039 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    testarossa40 wrote: »
    If traffic is passing you on the left, then it is highly unlikely you have any interest whatsoever "to come back to left lane".

    https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.356145,-6.383035&spn=0.00129,0.003484&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.356145,-6.383035&panoid=p2P1qg5xISGMWQ3iiVRYhA&cbp=12,40.73,,0,13.44

    Imagine you join the 3 lane road from the same sliproad as this silver astra.
    You end up directly on most right lane.
    How are you going to come back to the most left lane, if there are vehicles overtaking you on the left all the time?


  • #63
    testarossa40
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 762 ✭✭✭testarossa40


    CiniO wrote: »
    https://maps.google.com/?ll=53.356145,-6.383035&spn=0.00129,0.003484&t=m&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.356145,-6.383035&panoid=p2P1qg5xISGMWQ3iiVRYhA&cbp=12,40.73,,0,13.44

    Imagine you join the 3 lane road from the same sliproad as this silver astra.
    You end up directly on most right lane.
    How are you going to come back to the most left lane, if there are vehicles overtaking you on the left all the time?
    "How to Merge" deserves a separate thread tbh - it could discuss various techniques in matching speeds, assessing gaps to merge into, courteous driver etiquettes etc in some detail. "Overtaking on the Left" is the topic at hand on THIS particular thread...


  • #64
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,039 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    testarossa40 wrote: »
    "How to Merge" deserves a separate thread tbh - it could discuss various techniques in matching speeds, assessing gaps to merge into, courteous driver etiquettes etc in some detail. "Overtaking on the Left" is the topic at hand on THIS particular thread...

    No, it's simple.
    If there were no vehicles undertaking, there would be no problem.


  • #65
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    CiniO wrote: »
    If traffic didn't pass on the left, it would be possible to come back to left lane.

    Dreamland stuff. Driving seems difficult when its done on boards.


  • #66
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,039 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    robbie7730 wrote: »
    Dreamland stuff. Driving seems difficult when its done on boards.

    I've crossed Germany several times from the West to East and opposite, which equals to over 10,000km on motorways, and I can't remember seeing a single undertaking manouver.
    While in Ireland it's enough to drive on M50 for 1 minute to see dozens of those.

    So no - it's not dreamland.


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  • #67
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,370 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    CiniO wrote: »
    I've crossed Germany several times from the West to East and opposite, which equals to over 10,000km on motorways, and I can't remember seeing a single undertaking manouver.
    While in Ireland it's enough to drive on M50 for 1 minute to see dozens of those.

    So no - it's not dreamland.

    Not the overtaking on the left is dreamland stuff. But being trapped in the overtaking lane by them is. This forum really does make driving seem like a skill only for the ultra gifted at times.


  • #68
    Andrewf20
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,256 ✭✭✭Andrewf20


    Id vote for it. Ive done alot of driving in all over the USA on multi-laned highways where its common place and didnt see any issues with it. Looking over my left shoulder was as easy as looking over my right.


  • #69
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,076 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    CiniO wrote: »
    I've crossed Germany several times from the West to East and opposite, which equals to over 10,000km on motorways, and I can't remember seeing a single undertaking manouver.
    While in Ireland it's enough to drive on M50 for 1 minute to see dozens of those.

    If you sit in the overtaking lane on the continent you won't be long getting other motorists forcing you out of it. In this country the ignorant won't get out of the overtaking lane so there's no choice but to get by whatever way is possible.

    As someone else has posted before I've often been driving on an empty multi lane road, in the driving lane, when up ahead I see a car coming down a filter lane. The car usually goes straight to the overtaking lane, at way less than the limit, while I happily motor past in the driving lane. I've also come up behind cars, switched to the overtaking lane, flashed them to pull over, past them and as I return to the driving lane I see the other car pull back into the overtaking lane disappear in my mirrors. I've never seen cars so regularly pull into the overtaking lane in any other country


  • #70
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    Henry Ford III wrote: »
    I already metioned it was a UK Highway Code clarification and the limitation of that.

    In the absence of a similar Irish clarification however any reasonable judge would be unwise to ignore it.

    And if there was no UK clarification would the Irish Judiciary then look further afield for a hint on how to apply Irish law ???
    Maybe Uganda, or even Brazil might have a "clarification".
    Any reasonable judge in this Country would be very unwise if they chose to look at any other Country's Laws, as they simply do not apply here.

    BTW all I said at the start was that this is a very Grey area because there is not a specific speed range given for "undertaking".


  • #71
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    And if there was no UK clarification would the Irish Judiciary then look further afield for a hint on how to apply Irish law ???
    Maybe Uganda, or even Brazil might have a "clarification".
    Any reasonable judge in this Country would be very unwise if they chose to look at any other Country's Laws, as they simply do not apply here.

    BTW all I said at the start was that this is a very Grey area because there is not a specific speed range given for "undertaking".

    This is complete and utter rubbish. The High and Supreme courts look at UK decisions every day of the week. US, Canada, Australia and New Zealand are also frequently referred to. (Basically the major Common Law Countries). South African and Israeli decisions have also been cited.

    The vast majority of our legislation is lifted straight out of the English statute books.

    I dont know what clarification is needed in all honesty - the Irish laws on undertaking is virtually identical to the British position in the Highway code.


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  • #72
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    It's complete and utter rubbish to state that the supreme and high courts sit "every day of the week".

    It's complete and utter rubbish to suggest that any person charged with "passing on the left" would have their case heard in either of these courts.

    At least one of the countries you mention (hint...they consider themselves the world's super-power) do allow overtaking on the left (or in their case, on the right). Perhaps this could be cited in the high court next Sunday by somebody's legal counsel as a precedent.:rolleyes:
    edit: Australia, New Zealand, and Canada (some provinces) all allow overtaking on the inside lane. Perhaps your "common law" principle may be applied here to keep us in line with these countries.

    p.s. as you also cannot give an exact speed above which "undertaking" becomes an offence I can only assume that you also agree that it is indeed a grey area.



    As an aside, if one was travelling on the M7 between Limerick and Mountrath for example, and encountered a car in the outside lane (there are only two lanes here) driving at a steady 45kph and ignoring the immense tailback caused, would it then be considered in any way reasonable to pass on the inside or would it be a better course of action to remain in the left hand lane at the same speed as (but slightly behind) this car ?
    After all , if you are not overtaking then you should remain in the left hand lane......thus forcing both lanes to remain at a steady 45kph.


  • #73
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    You are just being pedantic. That said in the interests of accuracy no of course RTA isn't dealt with in those courts. Unless the case was stated to clarify a point of law. You clearly have no idea how stare decisis works -why should you - that said you shouldn't go commenting on it. You also don't understand the difference between a 'grey area' and the fact that we allow some flexibility in legislation. It's impossible to prescribe a set of rules for every situation. What if it was wet? What if it was a lorry, what if there were road works ahead? You'd end up with a piece of legislation that was 45,000 pages long.

    If I'd have encountered the scenario you described I would have simply passed on the left and called the Gardai - using the hands free of course.


  • #74
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    Why shouldn't I understand how stare decisis works ? You are making an assumption here which is at best insulting.
    If you can show me even one case where a person was convicted in this country of "undertaking" (yes I am aware that is not the proper term, but it is easily understood) where the judge showed that he respected a precedent established in another State then I may just allow you one more insult.....

    With regard to the situation mentioned, you would first break a law (in your view) and only then phone the Guards. Why not phone them first and not pass out the car until the authorities have arrived and sorted out the problem ????

    This thread started out with the question "should we allow undertaking here ?"
    You have just stated that you would undertake.
    It would seem that you are in agreement with those in favour of this manoeuvre when it affects your journey time, even though you appear to believe that this is an offence.

    BTW I don't want this to turn into a personal slanging match, but you did start off by telling me that one of my posts was complete and utter rubbish.....perhaps the better course would be to ignore each others posts on this thread and let the debate go wherever the other posters take it.


  • #75
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    Why shouldn't I understand how stare decisis works ? You are making an assumption here which is at best insulting.

    Perhaps but its also clearly correct.
    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    If you can show me even one case where a person was convicted in this country of "undertaking" (yes I am aware that is not the proper term, but it is easily understood) where the judge showed that he respected a precedent established in another State then I may just allow you one more insult.....

    Would be difficult given the District Court is one of record.
    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    With regard to the situation mentioned, you would first break a law (in your view) and only then phone the Guards. Why not phone them first and not pass out the car until the authorities have arrived and sorted out the problem ????

    Common sense
    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    This thread started out with the question "should we allow undertaking here ?"
    You have just stated that you would undertake.
    It would seem that you are in agreement with those in favour of this manoeuvre when it affects your journey time, even though you appear to believe that this is an offence.

    You are making generalisations attempting to use limited information to make a black and white statement. This is one of the issues in your flawed understanding of how legislation works.
    mgbgt1978 wrote: »
    BTW I don't want this to turn into a personal slanging match, but you did start off by telling me that one of my posts was complete and utter rubbish.....perhaps the better course would be to ignore each others posts on this thread and let the debate go wherever the other posters take it.

    Thats exactly what I did; stated on of you're posts was rubbish, which it is. I then used the evidence you have provided to point out you have no idea how something works - neither are insults. The only insult, albeit a minor one, was to point out that you were being pedantic. If that label has offended you I apologise.


  • #76
    mgbgt1978
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,227 ✭✭✭mgbgt1978


    I'm out. I gave up arguing with 1st year Law students years ago....the 2nd years are more fun, they don't think they know everything:rolleyes:


  • #77
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Being in second year I know I don't know everything. I also know when I come across someone who doesn't know what they are talking about. You are right about first years over estimating their knowledge however.


  • #78
    Sean Kinvarra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 362 ✭✭Sean Kinvarra


    http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3472&start=30


  • #79
    CiniO
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,039 ✭✭✭✭CiniO


    Sean Kinvarra wrote: »
    http://www.advanced-driving.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=3472&start=30

    I think it's an UK forum, and if you linked it because of this longer respond saying that undertaking lane hogger is not against the law, then this probably applies to UK law.

    In Ireland law directly prohibits overtaking on the left (with few exceptions), so situation is much different.


  • #80
    sdanseo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,271 ✭✭✭sdanseo


    Supergurrier wrote: »
    No because it's dangerous

    It's only dangerous because of the vast percentage of Irish drivers morons who cannot drive properly.

    My method for approaching middle lane hoggers is to slow to their speed or just below, move safely from lane 1 to 3, overtake, then back to lane 1 making sure to use indicators all the way. Sometimes, a miracle happens and said moron will realise his or her error, and move in.

    Method #2 is to sit behind the person in lane 2 and flash headlights repeatedly. Best avoided because of questionable legality and because the moron may panic and crash into an undertaker*.

    *person undertaking, not person driving corpses.


  • #81
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,730 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    zombie thread again


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  • #82
    xabi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,028 ✭✭✭xabi


    We wouldn't need these threads if people knew how to drive on DC's


  • #83
    First Up
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,823 ✭✭✭✭First Up


    So if someone is toodling along in the middle lane at say 80 kph, everyone in the driving lane is obliged to go no faster, for fear of being charged with undertaking. To pass him, they must all cross two lanes into the outer lane and then move two lanes back again. I have done that, partly in the hope that the dozy twerp would wake up for a moment but they are usually sound asleep.

    On a separate matter, can anyone point to a retail operation in Dublin that sells dashboard cameras and knows what they are talking about? None of the obvious sources (Halfords, DID) seem to carry them.


This discussion has been closed.
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