Should we allow undertaking?

naughtysmurf

It's legal in some countries so why not on the motorways here. I undertook and was undertaken while driving in the US, you get used to it fairly quickly
Took the following from Wiki

Australia and New Zealand - Undertaking, or "overtaking to the left", is legal on multi-lane roads, or where a car is indicating to turn right. [2]
Canada - Varies by province.
Finland - Undertaking is specifically prohibited, except for inner-city traffic and vehicle waiting to turn left.
France - Undertaking is specifically prohibited, except for vehicle waiting to turn left or if the vehicles in the lane to the left are queueing and slow moving.
Germany - Undertaking is specifically prohibited, exceptions exist for inner-city traffic and Autobahns.
Hungary - Undertaking is prohibited outside built-up areas. Inside built-up areas, passing on the right is permitted, even in cases when there are no road markings, but the width of the roads makes this possible. Interestingly, the undertaking manoeuvre in built-up areas are referred as "driving in parallel traffic" instead of "passing on the right" as it is used outside built-up areas.
Poland - Undertaking is legal on 4-lane roads in built-up areas, 6-lane roads outside built-up areas and on one-way roads with marked lanes (this definition includes motorways). (article 24 of Law on Road Traffic) However, similar to the UK it is considered a dangerous practice and is discouraged.
United Kingdom - The Highway Code discourages undertaking on motorways with some exceptions (rule 268): "Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake". Undertaking is permitted in congested conditions when frequent lane changing is not recommended.[4] On other roads, the Code advises drivers "should only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right" (rule 163).[5] Rule 163 uses advisory wording and "will not, in itself, cause a person to be prosecuted", but may be used in evidence to establishing liability in any court proceedings.[6] On all roads, undertaking is permitted if the vehicles in the lane to the right are queueing and slow moving. Undertaking in an aggressive or reckless manner could be considered Careless Driving or more seriously Dangerous Driving, both of which are legally enforceable offences.
United States - Undertaking is usually allowed if not expressly forbidden by road signs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Undertaking_(driving)

challengemaster

As long as you own a hearse :pac:

Top Dog

Poland has 6 lane roads?! :eek:

Supergurrier

No because it's dangerous

Sofiztikated

Christ, people have issues enough with OVERtaking safely.

Actually, can someone clear something up for me? If I am in the driving lane, and doing, say 120km/h, and there is a car staying in the overtaking lane, driving at 110km/h, and has been there for quite some time. Should I slow to the 110km/h to avoid undertaking?

Supergurrier

That's not undertaking, that's just passing out a liability

naughtysmurf

Supergurrier wrote: »

That's not undertaking, that's just passing out a liability

Tell that to the chap in the blue uniform giving you a few points

lintdrummer

Sofiztikated wrote: »

Christ, people have issues enough with OVERtaking safely.

Actually, can someone clear something up for me? If I am in the driving lane, and doing, say 120km/h, and there is a car staying in the overtaking lane, driving at 110km/h, and has been there for quite some time. Should I slow to the 110km/h to avoid undertaking?

Pull into the overtaking lane as you are approaching them, slow to their speed obviously, they'll normally move into the driving lane.

Some people seem to prefer driving in the overtaking lane. I was on the M4 in the wee hours one morning. Fairly empty as to be expected. Came upon a taxi in the wilderness driving at 100kph in the overtaking lane, did as described above and he pulled into the driving lane. After I had passed he pulled back into the overtaking lane and carried on. Bizarre.

mgbgt1978

Overtaking is when you pass someone out by moving to the outer lane, passing them out, and then returning to the your original lane.

Undertaking would be the opposite.....where you move to the left, pass someone else (on their left) and then return to an outer lane,

If you remain in the left hand lane as you go past a car which is travelling slower than you, but they are keeping to an outer lane (usually the middle lane) then technically you are not "undertaking", you are simply moving faster than vehicles in other lanes (within the speed limits of course).
A very grey area, but the Rules of the Road do not state what speed you are allowed to do this at, simply that it is legal if the Traffic in other lanes is moving slower than you.

Supergurrier

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Tell that to the chap in the blue uniform giving you a few points

Points for what exactly ?

Henry Ford III

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Overtaking is when you pass someone out by moving to the outer lane, passing them out, and then returning to the your original lane.

Undertaking would be the opposite.....where you move to the left, pass someone else (on their left) and then return to an outer lane,

If you remain in the left hand lane as you go past a car which is travelling slower than you, but they are keeping to an outer lane (usually the middle lane) then technically you are not "undertaking", you are simply moving faster than vehicles in other lanes (within the speed limits of course).
A very grey area, but the Rules of the Road do not state what speed you are allowed to do this at, simply that it is legal if the Traffic in other lanes is moving slower than you.

Nonsense. We've been here too many times previouslyto bother repeating the reasons why.

nacimroc

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

A very grey area, but the Rules of the Road do not state what speed you are allowed to do this at, simply that it is legal if the Traffic in other lanes is moving slower than you.

Its too grey to be of any use. Although its allowed in some cases, you are chancing that the gardai think the same way as you. Any Garda could easily ticket you for doing something we all would think is allowed.

Undertaking shouldn't be allowed as people who can't use lanes, can't use mirrors just as bad. Nevermind the fact they don't use indicators at all. Its time to prosecute, train and/or re-test people. I do however think it shouldn't be prosecuted as long as its a 'lane free for all' like it is these days.

HellFireClub

Did anyone else think this was what this thread was about?!?

Nissan doctor

Forgetting out ROTR for a moment, can anyone clearly explain why passing a car, which is travelling in the center lane, on the left would be any more dangerous then overtaking on the right??

Given that anyone who changes lane has to take the same precautions weather they are moving left or right.

If you are driving in the left lane and come up on a car in the center lane travelling slower, it is clearly safer to continue as your are then to move across 3 lanes to overtake and then back across 3 lanes again.

Knowing and studying the rules of the road does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make anyone a good driver. I know every rule of F1 inside and out so does that mean I could be world champion??

I've said it before and I still stick by it. Good driving comes from common sense and understanding of car control, not hugging the ROTR book.

Do I think we should allow undertaking? In principle, yes. But I can certainly see an issue in Ireland since so many people haven't got a clue how to safely overtake on any side.

naughtysmurf

Supergurrier wrote: »

Points for what exactly ?

Could be potentially done (depending on mood) for driving without reasonable consideration 2- 4 pts

Supergurrier

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Could be potentially done (depending on mood) for driving without reasonable consideration 2- 4 pts

Doubt it if you are maintaining a steady speed and keeping to your own lane tbh, and by rights if there was a cop on the scene his attention should immediately be on the fast lane hogger regardless.

Max Power1

If everyone drove correctly it would be impossible to undertake.......

AugustusMinimus

Can anyone explain why undertaking is dangerous ?

It's quite clear that it works fine in other countries and would work fine in this country if people would simply take a look before changing lanes. It's as simple as that.

mfceiling

I join the m50 at Tallaght heading southbound at approx 7.30 most mornings.

I merge into the left lane and maintain a steady 50 mph until I move into the middle (which becomes left or inside lane) at Sandyford.

The amount of mornings I zip past the traffic is unreal...at 50mph remember?

Colonel Sanders

mfceiling wrote: »

I join the m50 at Tallaght heading southbound at approx 7.30 most mornings.

I merge into the left lane and maintain a steady 50 mph until I move into the middle (which becomes left or inside lane) at Sandyford.

The amount of mornings I zip past the traffic is unreal...at 50mph remember?

I join at Finglas about 8.00am

Traffic can be heavy between Blanchardtown & the Red Cow & then from Ballymount to Dundrum (where I exit). Lane 1 is usually the quickest moving lane unless there are large numbers of cars merging.

I have often seen lanes 2 & 3 almost stationary & lane 1 empty. Then person merges and queues to get into an almost stationary lane 2 rather than drive in an empty lane 1.

As has been stated if people drove correctly there'd be no need for this discussion. Instead our traffic corps don't police this mass disobedience of the ROTR

And then there's the idiots who leave lane 1 to sit in the middle when there's no need nearly causing accidents. I saw a guy flash someone tonight as yer man pulled out in front of him (lane 1 empty). Idiot proceeded to slow down to almost a stop in lane 2. (I assume "to teach him a lesson"). It was one of the most idiotically stupid things I have ever seen on a motorway in my life. Stuff like this happens daily, there's unnecessary traffic congestion yet never a traffic corps car out pulling people.

God I went off in a bit of a rant there!!

Matt Simis

I undertake when stuck behind a dawdler on the motorway but I usually give about 3min of waiting with the indicator on etc first to try avoid it. Most of the time that works, where it doesnt is around the N4 to M50 junction for some reason.

I also pass on the left on those dashed slip roads leaving motorways, my understanding is this technically isnt undertaking as they are two different "roads" however practically speaking of course this is physically undertaking and underlines the obvious contradiction... if we allow this type of "undertaking" then we shouldnt make the distinction in other motorway situations.

Guy:Incognito

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Forgetting out ROTR for a moment, can anyone clearly explain why passing a car, which is travelling in the center lane, on the left would be any more dangerous then overtaking on the right??

Given that anyone who changes lane has to take the same precautions weather they are moving left or right.

If you are driving in the left lane and come up on a car in the center lane travelling slower, it is clearly safer to continue as your are then to move across 3 lanes to overtake and then back across 3 lanes again.

Knowing and studying the rules of the road does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make anyone a good driver. I know every rule of F1 inside and out so does that mean I could be world champion??

I've said it before and I still stick by it. Good driving comes from common sense and understanding of car control, not hugging the ROTR book.

Do I think we should allow undertaking? In principle, yes. But I can certainly see an issue in Ireland since so many people haven't got a clue how to safely overtake on any side.

My reason against it would be that it can only make things worse, not better. Your giving people free reign to sit at 80-100 in any of the 3 lanes because "sure cant they go by me on either side".

I'd much rather they just educated people properly. By force if need be. Stick a load of cameras the length of the M50 and have people going through the footage issuing fines to everyone that's sitting in overtaking lanes. Along with the fines, enclose a letter explaining what they were doing wrong and how, if everyone travelled at or close to 100 with a minimum of 2-3 cars lengths between each other that everyone can merge and leave as they need to with no idiots braking at all (should be no need to ever brake on a motorway outside of an emergency situation).

bladebrew

I was driving this morning on the link road in cork out of the city, its a 100km/h road, a person joined the road up ahead of me, i was about to move into the overtaking lane to let them out when they drove across my lane into the overtaking lane so i continued in the driving lane at just below 100km/h,
they had built up virtually no speed and i estimate they were doing 70-80km/h when i went past, now they were not moving out for any reason except they are from cork:)

did i break the law or is this a grey area that people mention???

CiniO

bladebrew wrote: »

I was driving this morning on the link road in cork out of the city, its a 100km/h road, a person joined the road up ahead of me, i was about to move into the overtaking lane to let them out when they drove across my lane into the overtaking lane so i continued in the driving lane at just below 100km/h,
they had built up virtually no speed and i estimate they were doing 70-80km/h when i went past, now they were not moving out for any reason except they are from cork:)

did i break the law or is this a grey area that people mention???

I can't see any grey are here.
You undertook so you broke the law.
Don't worry - they broke the law either.

CiniO

Top Dog wrote: »

Poland has 6 lane roads?! :eek:

I don't think so.

Beside it's a mistake.
You can undertake there on single-carriageways when at least 2 lanes are in your direction (in built-up area) and when at least 3 lanes are in your direction (outside built-up area) /\.
And obviously as they said you can undertake on any double-carriagways, so that includes motorway and expressways, no matter how many lanes they have.

_Kaiser_

mfceiling wrote: »

I join the m50 at Tallaght heading southbound at approx 7.30 most mornings.

I merge into the left lane and maintain a steady 50 mph until I move into the middle (which becomes left or inside lane) at Sandyford.

The amount of mornings I zip past the traffic is unreal...at 50mph remember?

Question.. why are you doing approx 20 km/h below the limit when at that hour/location there should be nothing stopping you doing the posted 100/62?

You do realise that you are part of the reason why so many people will sit in the middle lane instead?

CiniO

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Overtaking is when you pass someone out by moving to the outer lane, passing them out, and then returning to the your original lane.

Not only.
If you travel on the right lane for a long time, and you pass someone who is on left lane, you are still overtaking, even though you didn't have to change lanes.

Undertaking would be the opposite.....where you move to the left, pass someone else (on their left) and then return to an outer lane,

If you remain in the left hand lane as you go past a car which is travelling slower than you, but they are keeping to an outer lane (usually the middle lane) then technically you are not "undertaking", you are simply moving faster than vehicles in other lanes (within the speed limits of course).

You pass quicker than someone in front of you. Initially you were behind him, now you are in front of him. Whatever way you look at it, it's overtaking (or undertaking).

A very grey area, but the Rules of the Road do not state what speed you are allowed to do this at, simply that it is legal if the Traffic in other lanes is moving slower than you.

but they also mention about "slow moving traffic", so there is something mentioned about speed. I'm sure 120km/h can't be pulled as "slow moving traffic".

CiniO

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

Question.. why are you doing approx 20 km/h below the limit when at that hour/location there should be nothing stopping you doing the posted 100/62?

You do realise that you are part of the reason why so many people will sit in the middle lane instead?

He is perfectly allowed to do 80km/h. That's the speed any car or van with trailer is limited to. He can flow with them.

CiniO

Nissan doctor wrote: »

Forgetting out ROTR for a moment, can anyone clearly explain why passing a car, which is travelling in the center lane, on the left would be any more dangerous then overtaking on the right??

Given that anyone who changes lane has to take the same precautions weather they are moving left or right.

I's say there's two main reasons for making undertaking illegal.
1. It's easier to drive (on motorways) when you have to worry only about changing lanes in outer direction and not really on inner one. If drivers are used to fact no one undertakes, they don't expect anyone coming from there.
2. Prohibition of undertaking would lead to anyone choosing random lanes, and in the end at big traffic equaling speeds on every lane to speed way below the limit. When there is driving lane and overtaking lanes, traffic can separate for those going slower and faster.

If you are driving in the left lane and come up on a car in the center lane travelling slower, it is clearly safer to continue as your are then to move across 3 lanes to overtake and then back across 3 lanes again.

There shouldn't be such sitations at all in the first place, because there shouldn't be slower vehicles traveling at center lane.

Knowing and studying the rules of the road does not, by any stretch of the imagination, make anyone a good driver. I know every rule of F1 inside and out so does that mean I could be world champion??

I've said it before and I still stick by it. Good driving comes from common sense and understanding of car control, not hugging the ROTR book.

Do I think we should allow undertaking? In principle, yes. But I can certainly see an issue in Ireland since so many people haven't got a clue how to safely overtake on any side.

Yes, but common sense tells us to prohit undertaking

drunkmonkey

I seen an Ambulance undertake a 5 series about 2 weeks ago, seriously if a brightly colored van with a siren and ambulance written on it doesn't make people move out of the overtaking lane nothing will.
People are absolute idiots on the road adding another rule won't change anything, and tbh I think most of the idiots in the 2 outside overtaking lanes think undertaking is probably legal as they seem to be seeing it everyday.

I've promised myself before I die I'm going to do a mad max on it form limerick to dublin and any motherfcuker in the wrong lane i'm going to ram them off the road in a tricked out Avensis, some people might die but it'll be for the greater good.

gambithh

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I seen an Ambulance undertake a 5 series about 2 weeks ago, seriously if a brightly colored van with a siren and ambulance written on it doesn't make people move out of the overtaking lane nothing will.
People are absolute idiots on the road adding another rule won't change anything, and tbh I think most of the idiots in the 2 outside overtaking lanes think undertaking is probably legal as they seem to be seeing it everyday.

I've promised myself before I die I'm going to do a mad max on it form limerick to dublin and any motherfcuker in the wrong lane i'm going to ram them off the road in a tricked out Avensis, some people might die but it'll be for the greater good.

post of the year!

ill go with ya dude.we will go out in a blaze of glory.