Alex Ferguson on Ferdinand and Roberts

Pro. F · 24-10-2012 06:35PM

niallo27 wrote: »

You do though, you have done it to me and several posters on here, you make great points and your obviously an intelligent guy, just leave out the snide ****e.

I have pointed out where you have said stupid shít on occasion because on occasion you have said a lot of stupid shít. You have done this as a pretence because you didn't want to have a proper discussion or admit where you were wrong, so pointing it out has been completely justified.

I'm not saying that I never act dickish towards other posters or that I am always as polite as I should be when arguing about something. But since there are a lot of people trolling on any forum and plenty of people who will pretend they can't understand any simple point if it means they might prolong the argument, then that is hardly surprising.

niallo27 · 24-10-2012 07:06PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I have pointed out where you have said stupid shít on occasion because on occasion you have said a lot of stupid shít. You have done this as a pretence because you didn't want to have a proper discussion or admit where you were wrong, so pointing it out has been completely justified.

I'm not saying that I never act dickish towards other posters or that I am always as polite as I should be when arguing about something. But since there are a lot of people trolling on any forum and plenty of people who will pretend they can't understand any simple point if it means they might prolong the argument, then that is hardly surprising.

Well i think sometimes you confuse understanding a simple point with not accepting a simple point.

Pro. F · 24-10-2012 07:11PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Well i think sometimes you confuse understanding a simple point with not accepting a simple point.

The mods agreed with me and gave you a yellow for what I'm talking about before, so in your case I doubt it.

J. Marston · 24-10-2012 07:15PM

Statement from Rio and Anton...

It has been a year since the incident at Loftus Road. During that time, some of the deep divisions that exist in football have been exposed. In the coming months there will be ongoing discussions, we are sure, on finding a way forward. We intend to participate in these discussions, along with numerous other current and ex-professionals of all races, from the grass roots upwards, across the football community as a whole.

On the issue of Kick It Out, we would like to go on record to say what fantastic work they have done in the past regarding education and awareness. However, times change and organisations need to change with them. We are more than happy to join the discussion, privately, to make Kick It Out more relevant in its fight to stamp out racism in football.

Although we have been left disappointed by the PFA and the FA's actions over the last year, as a family, we are committed to working with football's existing organisations towards the betterment of the game and to achieve immediate action.

We would like to thank all the fans and the staff at Queens Park Rangers and Manchester United for their support in what has been a difficult year. In particular we want to thank Sir Alex Ferguson and Mark Hughes.

We will not be discussing publicly any issues connected with the case. We are now going to concentrate on playing football.

- Rio and Anton Ferdinand

http://www.manutd.com/en/News-And-Fe...statement.aspx

niallo27 · 24-10-2012 07:54PM

Pro. F wrote: »

The mods agreed with me and gave you a yellow for what I'm talking about before, so in your case I doubt it.

Well as I said before your very good at what you do, your able to get away it. Your a good poster man, just leave out the snide ****. Anyway we are going off topic.

Iang87 · 24-10-2012 09:15PM

Pro. F wrote: »

No it is not. Positive discrimination makes no judgement on whether one race is superior to another, racism does.

There is clear evidence that black coaches are underrepresented in management roles compared to all other aspects of football. Whether that underrepresention is caused by discrimination or self selection or something else is another matter. A period of positive discrimination could fix the balance. It has worked quite well in the USA.

Positive Discrimination and its positive why?

This is positively the biggest load of ballox i may ever read

Drumpot · 25-10-2012 10:02AM

Pro. F wrote: »

I don't talk down to posters just because they have a different view to me. I disagree with plenty of posters and still keep it civil with them. I just don't have unlimited patience for dealing with stupid arguments.

What I said about Drumpot and his argument is evidently true and it is perfectly reasonable to say as much. If somebody wants to talk nonsense and post incoherent arguments then it is fair to call them on that.

Why not just not reply to posters you dont have patience with ? Who died and made you forum warrior of political correctness?

You are also very presumptous and too absolute for the smugometer. What you said to me was evidently subjective, not evidently true. The fact that you have chosen an ignorant manner in which you have replied (intead of choosing to just ignore my posts if you really feel that strongly) shows a doubt and insecurity that exist even in your own views . If you really think that little of my posts/views I must ask, who is worse, the clown or the person arguing with the clown?

There is a big differance between views being incoherent, to you just dont understand or accepting an alternative view on society and how it deals with problems. You have a mainstream media view on this topic and think that anything is better then nothing with regards to tackling racism.

I have continually pointed out that its the usual widespresad condemnation of a smaller part of a wider problem. You dont understand that I wasnt saying racism shouldnt be tackled, but that the FA has (along with FIFA and other football authorities) continued to ignore and not properly deal with the problem in favour of using easy high profile cases to ignore its moral duty to try and stamp out agression and racism in the game.

Sure dont worry, you probobley arent even reading this so we dont have to worry about another bout of your "clever" conformed "evidently true" views ?!

Pro. F · 25-10-2012 10:58AM

Drumpot wrote: »

Why not just not reply to posters you dont have patience with ?

Because I nearly always have enough patience to reply but not always enough patience to reply to every part of a stupid/incoherent/rambling/illogical/ill-informed/whatever argument that I'm faced with. Sometimes I just prefer to be honest about the quality of the opposing argument being presented.

Again the rest of your post is rambling illogical nonsense and I'm again not in the mood to spend time responding to that level of debate.

Drumpot · 25-10-2012 11:14AM

Pro. F wrote: »

Because I nearly always have enough patience to reply but not always enough patience to reply to every part of a stupid/incoherent/rambling/illogical/ill-informed/whatever argument that I'm faced with. Sometimes 1. I just prefer to be honest about the quality of the opposing argument being presented.

Again the rest of your post is rambling illogical nonsense and 2. I'm again not in the mood to spend time responding to that level of debate.

1. What you would call honest, is subjective. Honesty is not a statement of fact, its a statement of opinion. . Theres your problem . . .

2. Yet you spent time responding and accuse me of contradicting myself . . . . Fancy that we arent so differant afterall . . . .

25-10-2012 11:28AM

Pro. F wrote: »

There is clear evidence that black coaches are underrepresented in management roles compared to all other aspects of football. Whether that underrepresention is caused by discrimination or self selection or something else is another matter. A period of positive discrimination could fix the balance. It has worked quite well in the USA.

Or over-represented in playing roles?

Pro. F · 25-10-2012 11:39AM

Drumpot wrote: »

1. What you would call honest, is subjective. Honesty is not a statement of fact, its a statement of opinion.... Theres your problem

I'm certainly not going to get into debating the semantics of the word ''honest.''

My observation is that is that your argument is rambling, self contradictory, ill-informed and poorly presented. There is ample evidence in this thread to support that observation.

Drumpot wrote: »

2. Yet you spent time responding and accuse me of contradicting myself... Fancy that

Try quoting the whole sentence and reading it in the context of what I explained in the rest of that post.

Ashbourne hoop · 25-10-2012 11:39AM

The statement from the Ferdinands is excellent. You could argue that they may have been better off releasing the statement before the weekend but imo they raised awareness by not wearing the t-shirts and then explaining their reasons later. Seems there is still a lot of work to do on racial issues, not just in football but in general society, and I for one find that a bit sad in 2012.

Sgt Pepper 64 · 25-10-2012 12:05PM

ferdinand turns my stomach. Talk about hypocrite.
A guy convicted of drink driving, appeared in a sexually explict video and alleged to have threatened a female, as well as calling a DJ a ****** and calling someone else a well known racist name and now he wants to be an anti racist figure?!

Guy is an absolute joke, not really decent material

Drumpot · 25-10-2012 12:21PM

Pro. F wrote: »

I'm certainly not going to get into debating the semantics of the word ''honest.''

My observation is that is that your argument is rambling, self contradictory, ill-informed and poorly presented. There is ample evidence in this thread to support that observation.
.

Its not semantics, an honest opinion is just that, a subjective view or interpretation of something.

There is ample evidence that you took specified pieces of my posts and ignored the main tone. . You specifically focused on my point on how I dont find Suarez actions on Evra as racist, but I awknowledge that wider society frowns on it and might feel otherwise. I accept I didnt clarify that point, but assumed it would be understood because thats been my point the whole time (that the Suarez incident is a sideshow in the real problem of racism).

The rambling, as you put it , was me qualifying my views with alternative examples. You wanted to keep the debate about the english FA because it suited your narrow minded take on this issue (that they are properly addressing the problem). This actually qualifies my views that people are incapable of looking at the bigger picture (racism as a culture) for favour of focusing on trivial incidents that dont address the major issue.

In terms of it being ill informed, well I find it hard to believe that refs or other players havent been subjected to abuse (even racist/zenophic abuse) in the last few years. I would think an ill informed person would hide behind "the FA have laws to protect players" in presuming that all footballers get the same protection.

Whether you are a "stupid paddy" or a "diving foreigner", I dont believe it doesnt go on every other week and while it might be in the rules that you shouldnt do it , it continues unpunished and not in the media spotlight. One player insulting another person shouldnt be only punishable when its about race. Just like peoples skin shouldnt be used to discriminate against them it shouldnt be used as a reason for positive discrimination. Its complete hypocricy and while it might be said to be doing the wrong thing for the right reasons, its forcing others to conform with what is viewed as publicly correct (kind of like what you have been doing repeatedly in this thread).

Pro. F · 25-10-2012 01:19PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Or over-represented in playing roles?

Yes black players are over represented in football compared to black people in the national population. 13% of professional players in the English league were black british in the year 2000 as opposed to around 5% of the population of England being black. I can't remember what the number of black managers is now, I'm pretty sure it's still less than 13% of 92 professional teams.

Since the vast majority of managers are drawn from the ranks of ex-professional players then that discrepancy between percentage of black players and black managers is what would be meant by the under-representation of black people in management.

Will I Amnt · 25-10-2012 01:20PM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

ferdinand turns my stomach. Talk about hypocrite.
A guy convicted of drink driving, appeared in a sexually explict video and alleged to have threatened a female, as well as calling a DJ a ****** and calling someone else a well known racist name and now he wants to be an anti racist figure?!

Guy is an absolute joke, not really decent material

Out of interest......does John Terry turn your stomach???

Sgt Pepper 64 · 25-10-2012 01:59PM

cambo2008 wrote: »

Out of interest......does John Terry turn your stomach???

irrevelant - not talking about him

Will I Amnt · 25-10-2012 02:01PM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

irrevelant - not talking about him

As I said....out of interest....

JimsAlterEgo · 25-10-2012 02:03PM

Pro. F wrote: »

Yes black players are over represented in football compared to black people in the national population. 13% of professional players in the English league were black british in the year 2000 as opposed to around 5% of the population of England being black. I can't remember what the number of black managers is now, I'm pretty sure it's still less than 13% of 92 professional teams.

Since the vast majority of managers are drawn from the ranks of ex-professional players then that discrepancy between percentage of black players and black managers is what would be meant by the under-representation of black people in management.

Management and coaching is a choice and requires qualifications, I wonder what the % of qualified black coaches & managers who are out of work is.

Sgt Pepper 64 · 25-10-2012 02:05PM

cambo2008 wrote: »

As I said....out of interest....

he's not exactly a role model for anythinhg either and as I have posted, he should have been stripped of the captaincy.
Just saying, a guy who feels he has been wronged, yet has broken the law and brushed with the law on a few occasions and managed to upset those of 2 sexual orientations
Would you vote for him?

Will I Amnt · 25-10-2012 02:11PM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

he's not exactly a role model for anythinhg either and as I have posted, he should have been stripped of the captaincy.
Just saying, a guy who feels he has been wronged, yet has broken the law and brushed with the law on a few occasions and managed to upset those of 2 sexual orientations
Would you vote for him?

Breaking the law doesn't mean you forfeit your right to avail of the law or make a complaint about something.
There's no laws against appearing in a sex tape(normal one) btw.
And allegedly means nothing either.

Sgt Pepper 64 · 25-10-2012 02:15PM

cambo2008 wrote: »

Breaking the law doesn't mean you forfeit your right to avail of the law or make a complaint about something.
There's no laws against appearing in a sex tape(normal one) btw.
And allegedly means nothing either.

No, but it gives you a pretty good idea of the guys "true" character and their respect for the law and other people in general

PhlegmyMoses · 25-10-2012 02:40PM

That response from the Ferdinands is exactly what was needed. The first positive piece of work they have done since this issue occurred. They should have released it before they didn;t wear the shirts but it is irrelevant now. Let's hope they can have a positive impact on KIO.

IvySlayer · 25-10-2012 03:30PM

What do people think of the new black player association that's supposedly being created? Well done lads, fight racism by segregating people.

Ashbourne hoop · 25-10-2012 03:44PM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

irrevelant - not talking about him

So that's a no then !!!

PhlegmyMoses · 25-10-2012 06:20PM

IvySlayer wrote: »

What do people think of the new black player association that's supposedly being created? Well done lads, fight racism by segregating people.

This isn't really how it has to work, though. If it is just a union of black players who will help to set mandates and processes for anti-racism campaigns etc, then it will be a positive things.

niallo27 · 25-10-2012 08:44PM

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

This isn't really how it has to work, though. If it is just a union of black players who will help to set mandates and processes for anti-racism campaigns etc, then it will be a positive things.

Do you not think you need the input of both white and black people to try and tackle this racism issue, an all black union might turn into them against us campaign.

The_Kew_Tour · 25-10-2012 08:47PM

Sgt Pepper 64 wrote: »

ferdinand turns my stomach. Talk about hypocrite.
A guy convicted of drink driving, appeared in a sexually explict video and alleged to have threatened a female, as well as calling a DJ a ****** and calling someone else a well known racist name and now he wants to be an anti racist figure?!

Guy is an absolute joke, not really decent material

TBF its hard to go against what you say when you put it like that.

In saying that 2 of those turned out to be untrue.

But your right Rio is not exactly a saint.

PhlegmyMoses · 25-10-2012 09:08PM

niallo27 wrote: »

Do you not think you need the input of both white and black people to try and tackle this racism issue, an all black union might turn into them against us campaign.

It absolutely has to be handled correctly. A black lobby group specifically dedicated to fighting racism with intelligent men helping to shape policy is not a problem. A black lobby group started because well, we're all black innit, them whites aren't very nice to us, would be a bad thing.

The_Kew_Tour · 25-10-2012 09:31PM

Also if people make false allegation about racism that also needs to be addressed.

Lee Croft case is perfect example. Just cause a White player/person confronts a Black player/person(ballboy in this case) does not make it racism all the time.

Alex Ferguson on Ferdinand and Roberts

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