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How Clean is Triathlon overall

  • 22-10-2012 6:57pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭


    Given the recent revelations about Lance and now it seems that the UCI may have their own questions to answer I wondered today as to how long it will be before the questions are asked of Triathlon.

    To race an Ironman at the pace that the pros in our sport can maintain is astonishing. We all know the work and sacrifice that goes into each swim stroke, each turn of the pedal and every time a foot strikes the ground on a run.

    But I can't help but ask the question, is it all clean and fair, for the love of God I hope so.


«1

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,584 ✭✭✭✭tunney


    Given the recent revelations about Lance and now it seems that the UCI may have their own questions to answer I wondered today as to how long it will be before the questions are asked of Triathlon.

    To race an Ironman at the pace that the pros in our sport can maintain is astonishing. We all know the work and sacrifice that goes into each swim stroke, each turn of the pedal and every time a foot strikes the ground on a run.

    But I can't help but ask the question, is it all clean and fair, for the love of God I hope so.

    You don't need to look at ironman and you don't need to look at pros. You don't even need to look too far.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,304 ✭✭✭Chartsengrafs


    I knew it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Brick Session


    tunney wrote: »
    You don't need to look at ironman and you don't need to look at pros. You don't even need to look too far.

    Forgive me cos I live under a rock most of the time but is it that close to us?

    Ah well I am happy to do an Olympic in 3 hours and an Ironman in 16 hours knowing I did it clean. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    tunney wrote: »
    You don't need to look at ironman and you don't need to look at pros. You don't even need to look too far.

    Is Tunney about to do a Lance on us?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    Is Tunney about to do a Lance on us?

    I reckon we'll have JB and Tango on before hand in the Landis and Hamilton roles.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    Look at the recent age grouper in Kona that got done. It's very easy to get doping products like testosterone in places like the US perfectly legally, because of bullsh*t "diseases" like andropause. Apparently that's the excuse he's using.

    The WTC are the same guys who were falling over backwards to get Lance into Kona while he had the federal investigation ongoing, and apparently are considering unsigning from WADA so they can get him in next year.

    Look at Macca's comments on Lance recently- the usual "he never failed a test" crap. They're pros- they just want the cash.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,468 ✭✭✭sconhome


    BTH wrote: »
    I reckon we'll have JB and Tango on before hand in the Landis and Hamilton roles.

    They are his domestiques at the moment.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,830 ✭✭✭catweazle


    BTH wrote: »
    I reckon we'll have JB and Tango on before hand in the Landis and Hamilton roles.

    I would guess Tunney is on the diet pills and Jacky is knocking back the growth hormones


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    catweazle wrote: »
    I would guess Tunney is on the diet pills and Jacky is knocking back the growth hormones

    Neither are working.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    BTH wrote: »
    Neither are working.

    The problem is they mixed up the bottles..


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭promethius


    hard to imagine it's not going on to be honest, it's so easy to get stuff now
    some of the massive improvements in performance you'd see don't seem to make any sense.
    depressing thoughts to be honest.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    promethius wrote: »
    hard to imagine it's not going on to be honest, it's so easy to get stuff now
    some of the massive improvements in performance you'd see don't seem to make any sense.
    depressing thoughts to be honest.

    Hey, I trained hard.


    :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    mloc123 wrote: »
    The problem is they mixed up the bottles..

    I cannot help but laugh at this, well played.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭promethius


    over on slowtwitch a user posted this picture of a sign he saw at a hotel when taking part in an ironman in the area.

    0vfJj.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    so its fair to say its no cleaner or dirtier than any other sport.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 455 ✭✭Brick Session


    BennyMul wrote: »
    so its fair to say its no cleaner or dirtier than any other sport.

    it definitely looks that way Brendan. I suppose it stands to reason. a pity really!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,103 ✭✭✭promethius


    BennyMul wrote: »
    so its fair to say its no cleaner or dirtier than any other sport.

    that's debatable since unlike say ball sports, there's a lot less skill invovled (fair enough the swim requires some finesse).

    a footballer with a bad first touch, poor tackling etc aint gonna change that with any ammount of doping. fair enough his fitness can improve but that's only one element of the overall sport, unlike triathlon where it's most of it.

    but the thing that bugs me lately is looking around and wondering what's real and what's something else altogether.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,454 ✭✭✭mloc123


    When you consider that amateur sportif cyclists have tested positive in the US I'd imagine even AG tri must be no different.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 707 ✭✭✭d4r3n


    promethius wrote: »

    that's debatable since unlike say ball sports, there's a lot less skill invovled (fair enough the swim requires some finesse).

    a footballer with a bad first touch, poor tackling etc aint gonna change that with any ammount of doping. fair enough his fitness can improve but that's only one element of the overall sport, unlike triathlon where it's most of it.

    but the thing that bugs me lately is looking around and wondering what's real and what's something else altogether.

    I heard an interesting interview with some county board members that said their selection criteria for inter county footballers was usually: 1st fitness, 2nd physique and 3rd skill.

    It definitely puts it into perspective.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭bryangiggsy


    d4r3n wrote: »
    I heard an interesting interview with some county board members that said their selection criteria for inter county footballers was usually: 1st fitness, 2nd physique and 3rd skill.

    It definitely puts it into perspective.

    Seriously!!! (they must have been talking about triathlon)

    Dare u to put that up on the GAA board.

    Back to OP I honestly dont think ped's is an issue in tri in Ireland.

    The cocks with big egos (prime candidates) are limited to a few on the circuit. :D


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    promethius wrote: »
    that's debatable since unlike say ball sports, there's a lot less skill invovled (fair enough the swim requires some finesse).

    a footballer with a bad first touch, poor tackling etc aint gonna change that with any ammount of doping. fair enough his fitness can improve but that's only one element of the overall sport, unlike triathlon where it's most of it.

    but the thing that bugs me lately is looking around and wondering what's real and what's something else altogether.

    Dunno, there's a lot to be said for a player with pace or the strength to hold players off. I woudln't be surprised if football was over run with it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,957 ✭✭✭interested




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    While i think drafting is by far the biggest problem tri has their issues as in any sport (or buisness sector where some companies like google , facebook apple, samsung push the legal boundaries often over the limit and then get fined or called back )

    With Itu anti doping programm nowadays ( cant remember the year but around 2005 Itu got their act togheter after a oly champ silver medal winner and world champs failed tests ) and is much better administrated than long distance.

    In Ireland if you are likely to win podiums at nat champs you know chances are extremly high you get tested. Pb3 athletes have been tested more than 20 times in last 4 years.

    But with all the snake oil being sold I would not be suprised that if you would test whole race you would find quite a few irregularities with contamineated vitamines stuff of 'super' foods , and most people would not even be aware of their violation.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,320 ✭✭✭MrCreosote


    Here's a good point of view from a race director:

    http://www.slowtwitch.com/Opinion/Opinion_Age_Group_Doping_Control_3187.html


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭nerraw1111


    Football is supposed to be rife with it. It's nothing to do with skill, rather the ability to recover quickly. If you can stay fit through a season, that's a huge advantage.

    Fuentes was involved with La Liga players in Spain. He was actually annoyed that the only clients of his named were cyclists.

    There's an article published today discussing Fuentes and soccer.

    http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/doping-football.aspx

    Same with tennis.


  • Registered Users Posts: 350 ✭✭onimpulse


    nerraw1111 wrote: »
    Football is supposed to be rife with it. It's nothing to do with skill, rather the ability to recover quickly. If you can stay fit through a season, that's a huge advantage.

    Fuentes was involved with La Liga players in Spain. He was actually annoyed that the only clients of his named were cyclists.

    There's an article published today discussing Fuentes and soccer.

    http://eircomsports.eircom.net/News/doping-football.aspx

    Same with tennis.

    You just beat me to it on this. I remember reading somewhere that less than 40% of Fuentes clients were cyclists. The bulk of the remainder were Footballers & Tenis players. Only the cyclists were ever named though. The UCI is taking a lot of heat at the moment but I wonder what this says about the governing bodies of other sports? Just because there is no scandal doesnt mean they're clean.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    nerraw1111 wrote: »
    Football is supposed to be rife with it. It's nothing to do with skill, rather than the ability to recover quickly. If you can stay fit through a season, that's a huge advantage.

    Fuentes was involved with La Liga players in Spain. He was actually annoyed that only clients of his named were cyclists.

    There's article published today discussing Fuentes and soccer.

    Same with tennis.

    All you have to do is look at the Operation Puerto page on Wikipedia (the holy gospel of these things). Paragraph after paragraph on cyclists, then a one liner about two mediocre (:rolleyes:) football clubs in Spain. A number of cyclists received bans. Anyone hear about any of the Real or Barca players getting banned?

    Then theres the growth hormones given to Messi so he wouldn't end up a dwarf and far too small to make it as a pro footballer. He would have been JB size otherwise!!

    Comparing the amount of money floating round in cycling circles, and football circles, anyone who believes that these, and more advanced forms of cheating (for want of a better word) to aid recovery, build muscle and expedite injury recovery are nothing going on in the higher levels of football really need to climb out from under their rock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    In addition to the Eircom sports article above, I'll add this

    http://www.irishpeloton.com/2012/02/drugs-in-football-pull-the-other-one/

    And this view from inside football

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/the-drugs-do-work-and-thats-why-players-cant-say-no-2577489.html

    While cycling is far from a shinin example of how to run a sport, and I've no doubt triathlon could up it's game too, at least there are those vocal enough in the sport that it seems something is being done to improve things, rather the head in the sand stuff which seems to be going on with more lucrative sports.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    interested wrote: »

    According to this, there were over 30,000 samples taken in football from 2008-2010, and fewer than 2% positive findings.

    In the Irish Peloton article linked above, the claim is made that Xavi is on growth hormone and the doctor giving it is the same as Eufemiano Fuentes... but the claim is walked back in the comments.

    You get the same arguments on Athletics/Running, "I bet football is just as dirty too, why are we picked on!?", but the fact is cycling had/has a massive problem with doping, which was found, evidence published, completely undeniable, athletics is just the same, the failed tests at the highest level are there to be seen, but there is no smoking gun in football. Just people saying "oh, they must be..."


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    the more money their is in the game the more cheating ( legaly and illegaly goes on )

    the thing is the dream of getting advantages is with us all and specially with triathletes who buy all the gels, compresion etc stuff.


    and since somebody send me an email that competiton testing is useless and that we both know doping happens in ireland.
    I cant disagree with that and i might well be to naive, but at the same time i just have a hard time that anybody in their right frame of mind would take drugs at this level an the good guys dont really overperform in a way that would get me suspicous enough.

    on the other hand from being a really persistent drafter to take drugs is not that far a step.


    Persoanlly iam 99,9999999999999999999 % sure i never coached an athlete that cheated with drugs.

    at the same time looking at the whole tri world human beings make errors......
    and triathletes look for the easy way thats why they are a gadget sellers paradise.




    BTH wrote: »
    All you have to do is look at the Operation Puerto page on Wikipedia (the holy gospel of these things). Paragraph after paragraph on cyclists, then a one liner about two mediocre (:rolleyes:) football clubs in Spain. A number of cyclists received bans. Anyone hear about any of the Real or Barca players getting banned?

    Then theres the growth hormones given to Messi so he wouldn't end up a dwarf and far too small to make it as a pro footballer. He would have been JB size otherwise!!

    Comparing the amount of money floating round in cycling circles, and football circles, anyone who believes that these, and more advanced forms of cheating (for want of a better word) to aid recovery, build muscle and expedite injury recovery are nothing going on in the higher levels of football really need to climb out from under their rock.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    at the same time if you find 2 % you can be sure their if many more that get away with it ........
    or do you think only 2 people that usually get a drafting penalty in a race draft ;-)
    RayCun wrote: »
    According to this, there were over 30,000 samples taken in football from 2008-2010, and fewer than 2% positive findings.

    In the Irish Peloton article linked above, the claim is made that Xavi is on growth hormone and the doctor giving it is the same as Eufemiano Fuentes... but the claim is walked back in the comments.

    You get the same arguments on Athletics/Running, "I bet football is just as dirty too, why are we picked on!?", but the fact is cycling had/has a massive problem with doping, which was found, evidence published, completely undeniable, athletics is just the same, the failed tests at the highest level are there to be seen, but there is no smoking gun in football. Just people saying "oh, they must be..."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    is drafting the same as taking PED's?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭pgibbo


    BennyMul wrote: »
    is drafting the same as taking PED's?

    I think the point Peter is making is that if you're will to cheat by drafting then what's to say you won't take a performance enhancing drug to get even more free speed?


  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 20,366 Mod ✭✭✭✭RacoonQueen


    I think he's pointing out how many people draft compared to how many people get caught and suggesting it could be the same with drug use.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    peter kern wrote: »
    at the same time if you find 2 % you can be sure their if many more that get away with it ........
    or do you think only 2 people that usually get a drafting penalty in a race draft ;-)

    Sure, there probably are more. But whole teams on planned doping programmes? The evidence just isn't there. (And at the top level, I don't think it would happen without the knowledge of the team)


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,454 ✭✭✭hf4z6sqo7vjngi


    Where can i get my hands on some of these growth hormones? i could do with some.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    RayCun wrote: »
    Sure, there probably are more. But whole teams on planned doping programmes? The evidence just isn't there. (And at the top level, I don't think it would happen without the knowledge of the team)
    in italy that evidence is pretty much there it was in soccer.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,359 ✭✭✭peter kern


    BennyMul wrote: »
    is drafting the same as taking PED's?

    both can be very effective .
    both are iligal.

    and saving up to 30 % of energy is most likely more effective than epo.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    peter kern wrote: »
    in italy that evidence is pretty much there it was in soccer.

    In Italy, you had calciopoli. Massive investigation, big teams dropped through divisions, referees debarred, members of the national team under investigation still, 'everybody did it'... an enormous scandal, and match-fixing is still a live issue.
    So, why wasn't there the same thing about doping? It can't be because the authorities are afraid of going after the big names.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    RayCun wrote: »
    According to this, there were over 30,000 samples taken in football from 2008-2010, and fewer than 2% positive findings.

    In the Irish Peloton article linked above, the claim is made that Xavi is on growth hormone and the doctor giving it is the same as Eufemiano Fuentes... but the claim is walked back in the comments.

    You get the same arguments on Athletics/Running, "I bet football is just as dirty too, why are we picked on!?", but the fact is cycling had/has a massive problem with doping, which was found, evidence published, completely undeniable, athletics is just the same, the failed tests at the highest level are there to be seen, but there is no smoking gun in football. Just people saying "oh, they must be..."
    RayCun wrote: »
    Sure, there probably are more. But whole teams on planned doping programmes? The evidence just isn't there. (And at the top level, I don't think it would happen without the knowledge of the team)

    But the Juventus doctor got sacked for administering EPO and god knows what else. Is that not evidence? And do you really believe he carried out this program off his own bat? This was in the late 90s when EPO abuse was becoming obvious in cycling as well. So you believe that while cycling failed to stamp out PEDs, football was 100% successful, and everything you see on a football pitch is 100% genuine?

    Was Festina the only team carting round cars full of drugs in 1998? By the same token, were Juventus the only team giving their players drugs at the same time? As easy as it is to keep a cyclist quiet with the promise of a €100,000 a year contract, how much easier is it to keep a footballer player quiet with a €2,000,000 a year contract. Hence the lack of smoke you refer to.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    RayCun wrote: »
    In Italy, you had calciopoli. Massive investigation, big teams dropped through divisions, referees debarred, members of the national team under investigation still, 'everybody did it'... an enormous scandal, and match-fixing is still a live issue.
    So, why wasn't there the same thing about doping? It can't be because the authorities are afraid of going after the big names.

    Calciopoli was match fixing. There is also evidence of team wide doping in Italy as well as this. Same way as the UCI were afraid of going after the big name, due to the damage it would cause to the sport as a whole, failing to see the damage that was being done by not going after the big names. Same kind of short-shortsightedness that happened in this country as a whole.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    peter kern wrote: »
    both can be very effective .
    both are iligal.

    and saving up to 30 % of energy is most likely more effective than epo.....

    Peter I fully agree with you in principle, but risking your health taking drugs or sitting on a wheel are not the same.

    but maybe I am looking as a whole as opposed to local and international levels.
    in local races cheating via drafting is the same as PED's in international.

    but in your opinion as a coach, how many of your athletes would take stuff is they were guarenteed to win thier A race and not get caught?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    There's plenty of smoke, what's missing is the fire. Or the gun - choose your favourite metaphor:)

    There's an excluded middle in your argument. I don't have to think that football was 100% successful and is 100% clean to think that - on the evidence available so far - it has been much more successful than cycling or athletics in stamping out doping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    BTH wrote: »
    Calciopoli was match fixing. There is also evidence of team wide doping in Italy as well as this.

    But my question was, if the Italian FA are trying to cover up doping because they don't want to upset big names or damage the sport, why didn't they cover up Calciopoli? (Equally, if the amount of money in football means you can bribe people to be quiet about doping, why didn't it work for match-fixing?)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,377 Mod ✭✭✭✭pgibbo


    Personally I think it's because of the stigma associated with drugs is much worse than match fixing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    RayCun wrote: »
    There's plenty of smoke, what's missing is the fire. Or the gun - choose your favourite metaphor:)

    There's an excluded middle in your argument. I don't have to think that football was 100% successful and is 100% clean to think that - on the evidence available so far - it has been much more successful than cycling or athletics in stamping out doping.

    I'm tempted to leave the word "Money" as my only answer to this.

    If you look back at cycling in the last 15 years, there are very very few journalists world-wide who have spoken out about doping. And they, generally, lost their jobs because of it. Lance et al ignored them and threatened to ignore any other journalists who had anything to do with them.

    Is it difficult to see the same happening in football. Anyone who has a passing interest in football will know about "Sir" Alexs relationship with the BBC, after they dare to question one of his team selections. Are journalist really going to start digging for the real dirt, lose all their contacts, and their job, with thousands more ready to jump into their shoes?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    BTH wrote: »
    Is it difficult to see the same happening in football. Anyone who has a passing interest in football will know about "Sir" Alexs relationship with the BBC, after they dare to question one of his team selections. Are journalist really going to start digging for the real dirt, lose all their contacts, and their job, with thousands more ready to jump into their shoes?

    The list of journalists who have been banned from United press conferences is pretty long all right.:pac:
    And yet they continue to criticise his team selection, suggest the Bebe purchase had some illegal element (but they don't know what), reveal that his players are sleeping around... because while there's an appetite for player interviews (which is what you lose if you get on the wrong side of a club) there's also an appetite for dirt. How famous would you get, how much money would you make, if you could be the one who revealed that Wayne Rooney was taking PEDs?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,075 Mod ✭✭✭✭BTH


    RayCun wrote: »
    The list of journalists who have been banned from United press conferences is pretty long all right.:pac:
    And yet they continue to criticise his team selection, suggest the Bebe purchase had some illegal element (but they don't know what), reveal that his players are sleeping around... because while there's an appetite for player interviews (which is what you lose if you get on the wrong side of a club) there's also an appetite for dirt. How famous would you get, how much money would you make, if you could be the one who revealed that Wayne Rooney was taking PEDs?

    Sleaze sells. Proper investigative journalism is dead. Your tabloid reader is only concerned about Rooney shagging grannies and which of his team-mates wifes John Terry and Ryan Giggs are carrying on with.

    The problem is obviously getting evidence, and getting people to speak on the record. Anyone who works in football journalism knows a hell of a lot more than they can actually publish. You only have to look at the recent "Duncan Jenkins" and Liverpool issue to see how far a club will go to keep their secrets out of the public knowledge. And then you see Liverpool "fan" forums publishing the address and photos of the man anonymously behind Duncan Jenkins and his family and sending him hate-mail and no doubt worse. Does a journalist really want that for themselves?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,704 ✭✭✭✭RayCun


    But that's an argument that proves too much. No journalist would then say anything bad, because it is impossible to get evidence and the backlash from fans isn't worth it. And yet bad things continue to be said, just not about doping.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,173 ✭✭✭BennyMul


    considering they dont do anything in relation to diving, why would they open can of worms to drugs.


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