Guy arrested outside a youth club with an imitation shotgun

Kashkai · 23-10-2012 8:48pm #1

Read this in the Indo today that a foreign national wearing camo gear and carrying an imitation shotgun was arrested for scaring kids outside a youth club. What's the betting that it was an airsoft shotgun and this muppet will now give us all a bad name, AND make cops wary of anyone in possession of an airsoft gun. Makes me think hard about wearing my camo gear in the car when driving to and from skirmishes, and drawing the Gardais attention to me. If I was stopped by the cops and they checked in my cars boot and saw two assault rifles and a 9mm pistol, I think I'd be answering questions for a while.

thermo · 23-10-2012 8:55pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Read this in the Indo today that a foreign national wearing camo gear and carrying an imitation shotgun was arrested for scaring kids outside a youth club. What's the betting that it was an airsoft shotgun and this muppet will now give us all a bad name, AND make cops wary of anyone in possession of an airsoft gun. Makes me think hard about wearing my camo gear in the car when driving to and from skirmishes, and drawing the Gardais attention to me. If I was stopped by the cops and they checked in my cars boot and saw two imitation assault rifles and a 9mm pistol, I think I'd be answering questions for a while.

fyp

fayer · 23-10-2012 11:05pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Read this in the Indo today that a foreign national wearing camo gear and carrying an imitation shotgun was arrested for scaring kids outside a youth club. What's the betting that it was an airsoft shotgun and this muppet will now give us all a bad name, AND make cops wary of anyone in possession of an airsoft gun. Makes me think hard about wearing my camo gear in the car when driving to and from skirmishes, and drawing the Gardais attention to me. If I was stopped by the cops and they checked in my cars boot and saw two assault rifles and a 9mm pistol, I think I'd be answering questions for a while.

Your not doing anything wrong once they are not visible.

We have laws to deal with idiots like this, lets support their use in such cases and hope this sends a clear message that RIF are not to be produced in public.

Kashkai · 23-10-2012 11:14pm

For clarification, my aeg's are kept in gun bags, under a blanket in my boot. Can't keep them anymore out of sight than that. It's just that with an idiot like that guy brandishing what may be an airsoft gun, it could draw unwanted attention to the sport and then we'd have the powers that be (politicians) cracking down on the sport. And we all know that they'd only be too happy to direct attention away from the state of the country and how they are screwing it up:rolleyes:

Witcher · 23-10-2012 11:24pm

The government don't need an excuse to crack down on airsoft, they could do it at any time they choose, things like this have happened before..I think the gov realise that it's the individual at fault and not airsoft.

Kashkai · 24-10-2012 7:45pm

Blay wrote: »

The government don't need an excuse to crack down on airsoft, they could do it at any time they choose, things like this have happened before..I think the gov realise that it's the individual at fault and not airsoft.

Have to disagree with you there. Politicians by their nature are publicity seeking hounds who would only love to latch onto something like this to express their "shock and outrage at a dangerous imitation firearm scaring children" and before you know it, licensing would be introduced, a 0.5 joule limit etc etc.

thermo · 24-10-2012 7:53pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

licensing would be introduced, a 0.5 joule limit etc etc.

a RIF is a RIF regardless of its power output (if any).

Southern Dandy · 24-10-2012 8:07pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. Politicians by their nature are publicity seeking hounds who would only love to latch onto something like this to express their "shock and outrage at a dangerous imitation firearm scaring children" and before you know it, licensing would be introduced, a 0.5 joule limit etc etc.

Not at all, with the way the country is at the moment airsoft is the very bottom of the ever growing list of problems in the country. All though having said that they could introduce an airsoft tax, don't ask me how it could work but I bet they could find a way......:D

A small toy gun bought by a parent for their son in a toy shop can still resemble a firearm yet kids are still running around being kids pretending to cops and robbers and all that essentially being kids, the plastic toy when used in a threatening behavior in the hands of a pleb at first glance will appear real.

RIF's are dangerous in the sense that they can put the fear of god into you but are not lethal, you can walk into any hardware shop and purchase a variety of tools from craft knives, screwdrivers to hammers using them as lethal weapons.

Witcher · 24-10-2012 8:21pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Have to disagree with you there. Politicians by their nature are publicity seeking hounds who would only love to latch onto something like this to express their "shock and outrage at a dangerous imitation firearm scaring children" and before you know it, licensing would be introduced, a 0.5 joule limit etc etc.

You're making the mistake of thinking the government need an excuse to ban airsoft..they don't, the legislation permits the Minister to ban it outright at his discretion. Alan Shatter could wake up tomorrow and come down like a ton of bricks on airsoft...the import ban is a part of that..restricting imports to retailers that can be shut by ministerial order at any time. Look what his predecessor did with RS, shooters had their sport wiped out on the excuse that legally held pistols were responsible for gangland killings despite the fact not one pistol had ever been stolen in Ireland..it was just Dermot Ahern's whim. The government hold all the cards with airsoft and RS and they play them whenever they feel like it, they don't need reasons. Obviously things like this don't help matters but I doubt one incident like this will lead to airsoft being banned.

Steve · 24-10-2012 9:26pm

thermo wrote: »

a RIF is a RIF regardless of its power output (if any).

Well...

Technically that's not quite true. It's only a RIF if its <1J, if it's >1J then it's a F.

thermo · 24-10-2012 10:38pm

Steve wrote: »

Well...

Technically that's not quite true. It's only a RIF if its <1J, if it's >1J then it's a F.

yes and no, you have non projectile firing guns such as a film prop guns, its still a RIF but has no output.

anyhow the point i was so badly making was a rif is a rif in the eyes of the powers that be, if they get a bee in their bonnet regarding airsoft they are more likely to ban them altogether rather than changing the limit to a lower one. and as for licensing ....................... :eek:

Kashkai · 24-10-2012 11:26pm

Southern Dandy wrote: »

RIF's are dangerous in the sense that they can put the fear of god into you but are not lethal, you can walk into any hardware shop and purchase a variety of tools from craft knives, screwdrivers to hammers using them as lethal weapons.

I agree that pretty much anything can be used as a weapon but I'd still say that an aeg can be lethal, why else do we wear eye protection? If my aeg or pistol can hole a coke can, then getting a direct hit in the eye could result in the bb penetrating into the brain. Pretty morbid I know but I have gotten a hit on my glasses at less than two metres and the power of it hitting the lens was "eye opening" - excuse the pun;)

Witcher · 24-10-2012 11:27pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I agree that pretty much anything can be used as a weapon but I'd still say that an aeg can be lethal, why else do we wear eye protection? If my aeg or pistol can hole a coke can, then getting a direct hit in the eye could result in the bb penetrating into the brain. Pretty morbid I know but I have gotten a hit on my glasses at less than two metres and the power of it hitting the lens was "eye opening" - excuse the pun;)

Takes 1.3J to penetrate the eye so you're safe even with a direct hit to an exposed eye.

jayod30 · 24-10-2012 11:35pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Makes me think hard about wearing my camo gear in the car when driving to and from skirmishes, and drawing the Gardais attention to me. If I was stopped by the cops and they checked in my cars boot and saw two assault rifles and a 9mm pistol, I think I'd be answering questions for a while.

fayer wrote: »

Your not doing anything wrong once they are not visible.

We have laws to deal with idiots like this, lets support their use in such cases and hope this sends a clear message that RIF are not to be produced in public.

I think I should clear something up here. A few months back I had an encounter with the Gardai while dropping home some colleagues from work at 1.30 on a Mon morn. I was followed for approx 5 mins before they decided to pull me over. To cut a long story short, my one "crime" was not to be carrying my drivers license on me. While receiving my tongue lashing, and after they'd carried out all their background checks on me I was told to step out of the car. While sitting in my car, the other officer had proceeded to search my boot without my consent. In my boot was my Magpul Masada in its gun bag. The Gardai had opened the gun bag and had takin out the Masada. Then the fun began. I was asked what it was, so I proceeded to tell them it was and airsoft gun. I was then told that by carrying it in my boot I was breaking the law and that by not having a license for it I was also breaking the law, to which I know both were untrue and explained to him that I was very well versed on the laws of airsoft and knew I hadn't broken any laws. He then threatened to confiscate the Masada and in his own words "send it for testing where I could be waiting 7-12 months before I saw it again". As my Masada is worth a pretty penny with all its upgrades I figured now was a good time to shut my mouth, something I found very difficult to do:D

Anyway, I made a complaint to the Gardai Ombudsman and on reviewing the complaint I explained how annoyed I was with how I was threatened in this manner to have my aeg confiscated when I had done nothing wrong and the threat of not returning it for up to a year. The officer reviewing the case did say they should not under any circumstances have searched my boot without citing why they were searching it and under what law, which they failed to do. But, here it is, he did say the gardai were well within their rights to confiscate my aeg, irregardless of me breaking any law or not and send it for ballistics testing.

So, it seems whether or not your doing anything wrong if your pulled over by the Gardai on your way to a skirmish and decide to search your car, they can at a whim, confiscate your guns without you having broken any laws, something that would concern me a bit

On another note, I was recently informed the officers involved that night are now being investigated by the Ombudsman for their treatment of me on the night in question, something I had thought would be brushed under the carpet. Maybe there is justice after all:)

Inari · 24-10-2012 11:56pm

jayod30 wrote: »

the gardai were well within their rights to confiscate my aeg, irregardless of me breaking any law or not and send it for ballistics testing.

Yes, they are. However it is still your property, and they must provide proof of confiscation, such as who they are (name and badge number etc) as well as an official receipt. If you do not get a receipt, it is gone forever, unfortunately.

Like yourself I have a lot of expensive gear, and if I was being told it would be confiscated I would ask for receipt immediately, and if I was told that I wasn't being given a receipt I would refuse to hand it over. I would let them take me down to the station and arrest me, as they have no ground to stand on for not giving you a receipt (they are required to provide one).

But yes, they can confiscate. In my opinion it's just a matter of showing them that it's more work to take it off you - sounds ridiculous, but everyone wants an easy life

NakedDex · 25-10-2012 2:33am

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I agree that pretty much anything can be used as a weapon but I'd still say that an aeg can be lethal, why else do we wear eye protection? If my aeg or pistol can hole a coke can, then getting a direct hit in the eye could result in the bb penetrating into the brain. Pretty morbid I know but I have gotten a hit on my glasses at less than two metres and the power of it hitting the lens was "eye opening" - excuse the pun;)

You genuinely have more chance of being fatally injured while shaving, than by an airsoft device. This isn't an argument for, or against, airsoft. It's just baseless comparison without any deference to facts. You can say it all you want, but it won't change basic physics.

What people fail to realise is that you can beef up a Nerf gun to fire over 1J with some duct tape and a bit of plastic tube, and the result will count as a firearm. Hell, some of them already do, but they're not chronograph tested because, well, they're seen as toys.

fayer · 25-10-2012 8:32am

jayod30 wrote: »

the gardai were well within their rights to confiscate my aeg, irregardless of me breaking any law or not and send it for ballistics testing.

If a Garda (lawfully) comes across a RIF in your possession , or has reasonable suspicion you are concealing something that may constitute an offence and finds an RIF they are entitled to have it tested for legality. The last devices I saw tested (4 weeks ago) were tested within a week.

His behaviour was unacceptable for sure, all we can do as a community is be reasonable, stay calm and educate the Guards via official channels.

The IAA will be meeting the Guard's representatives for firearms in the coming months, one of the agenda items is to create an education pack on Airsoft and RIF for them.

extremetaz · 25-10-2012 2:37pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I agree that pretty much anything can be used as a weapon but I'd still say that an aeg can be lethal, why else do we wear eye protection? If my aeg or pistol can hole a coke can, then getting a direct hit in the eye could result in the bb penetrating into the brain. Pretty morbid I know but I have gotten a hit on my glasses at less than two metres and the power of it hitting the lens was "eye opening" - excuse the pun;)

Just to reiterate again that the above is entirely inaccurate.

The topic has been done to death in the past and there is actually legal record within the British House of Commons, Home Affairs Second Report, dated the 6th of April 2000, Appendix 1 Section b which declares that projectiles with a muzzle energy of less than 1.35j are "incapable of penetrating even vulnerable parts of the body, such as the eye, although a direct hit from very close range would cause bruising".

There above quote is taken verbatim from the report cited and is the conclusion of the British home office and forensic science services.

Further to this there is forensic concensus within the Control of Firearms in Northern Ireland, and Draft Firearms (Northern Ireland) Order 2002, paragraph 32, that the minimum muzzle energy required to inflict a penetrating wound lies between 2.2 and 3 ft.lbs, or 3-4 joules.

This, just to cause a "penetrating" injury - the threshold for lethality is many times greater than that again!

In short - the limit is set to 1J for very good bloody reasons and, Dave Prosperous, asserting lethal capacity on a public forum with absolutely no grounds for any such assertion serves, not only to highlight your simply incredulous lack of knowledge of human biology, but futher casts doubt over the safety of our sport and the tools we use in order to engage in it.

I would strongly suggest that you amend, retract, or otherwise correct your previous assertion. Myself and several others have worked long and hard in order to remove such prejudice from the face of the sport and you right now are only serving to undo all that work - and on what grounds??? you thought that it smacked awfully hard against your glasses once??

I'm happy to apologise for getting worked up by this - but there's simply been FAR too much time and effort put into researching, validating and distributing the evidence cited above for this sort of statement NOT to boil my piss!! :mad::mad:

fayer · 25-10-2012 3:09pm

For those that dont know (I see many new names on this forum)

Extremetaz is one of the founder of the IAA, and along with others saved Airsoft when the government initially tried to take action against the sport.

(He knows his ****)

jayod30 · 25-10-2012 6:13pm

Inari wrote: »

Yes, they are. However it is still your property, and they must provide proof of confiscation, such as who they are (name and badge number etc) as well as an official receipt. If you do not get a receipt, it is gone forever, unfortunately.

Like yourself I have a lot of expensive gear, and if I was being told it would be confiscated I would ask for receipt immediately, and if I was told that I wasn't being given a receipt I would refuse to hand it over. I would let them take me down to the station and arrest me, as they have no ground to stand on for not giving you a receipt (they are required to provide one).

But yes, they can confiscate. In my opinion it's just a matter of showing them that it's more work to take it off you - sounds ridiculous, but everyone wants an easy life

Some sound advice there, thanks. Yes alot of my aegs are expensive pieces, between purchase and upgrades so having a Garda threaten to make it disappear for up to a year was a little worrying and quite annoying at his total abuse of the law

fayer wrote: »

The IAA will be meeting the Guard's representatives for firearms in the coming months, one of the agenda items is to create an education pack on Airsoft and RIF for them.

Good to hear, either the Garda in question was seriously out of touch or thought I hadn't an idea what was what when it came to the laws in question and was trying to put the fear of God in me. Tbh, I think I just got a bad egg, majority of police I've dealt with in the past whether it be through work or being pulled over have always been pretty cool

jayod30 · 25-10-2012 6:31pm

extremetaz wrote: »

In short - the limit is set to 1J for very good bloody reasons and, Dave Prosperous, asserting lethal capacity on a public forum with absolutely no grounds for any such assertion serves, not only to highlight your simply incredulous lack of knowledge of human biology, but futher casts doubt over the safety of our sport and the tools we use in order to engage in it.

I would strongly suggest that you amend, retract, or otherwise correct your previous assertion. Myself and several others have worked long and hard in order to remove such prejudice from the face of the sport and you right now are only serving to undo all that work - and on what grounds??? you thought that it smacked awfully hard against your glasses once??

I'm happy to apologise for getting worked up by this - but there's simply been FAR too much time and effort put into researching, validating and distributing the evidence cited above for this sort of statement NOT to boil my piss!! :mad::mad:

I don't think what Dave was doing was trying to be malicious, misguided yes, but malicious I highly doubt. I don't know him personally, but as a regular boards user I do know he's pretty new to the sport and from any of his previous posts has always been eager to learn, ask questions and have a real positive view and outlook on the sport, unlike some of us who love to have a good bitch and moan every now and then:) When you don't have the facts at your disposal it's easy to get the wrong idea. I to like Dave took a hit to my eye protection from less than 10 feet and can honestly say it was like taking a good solid punch to the eye. So, even though we know he's wrong in what he's saying, I can see why he would think this! I think he'll most definitely know better for future reference:D

Kashkai · 25-10-2012 7:52pm

extremetaz wrote: »

In short - the limit is set to 1J for very good bloody reasons and, Dave Prosperous, asserting lethal capacity on a public forum with absolutely no grounds for any such assertion serves, not only to highlight your simply incredulous lack of knowledge of human biology, but futher casts doubt over the safety of our sport and the tools we use in order to engage in it.

I would strongly suggest that you amend, retract, or otherwise correct your previous assertion. Myself and several others have worked long and hard in order to remove such prejudice from the face of the sport and you right now are only serving to undo all that work - and on what grounds??? you thought that it smacked awfully hard against your glasses once??

I'm happy to apologise for getting worked up by this - but there's simply been FAR too much time and effort put into researching, validating and distributing the evidence cited above for this sort of statement NOT to boil my piss!! :mad::mad:

Whoa....... easy there Extreme. My "opinion" was that if my pistol or aeg can punch a hole in an aluminium coke can at 20 metres (and all my guns are under the 1 joule limit btw), then what chance has an exposed eyeball? If you say that this is impossible, then have I wasted a lot of money on glasses?. I took a direct hit from very close range straight into my first set of glasses and it was, like Jayod said, a punch to the head. I was momentarily stunned even as the shooter was screaming "take your hits". I decided to buy another pair of glasses after that incident in case there was a chance the first pair had been weakened by this shot. Overkill?, Too cautious?, maybe, but I can send you dozens of coke cans with holes in them which has made me cautious.

Last word, as these things can get waaaaay out of hand on Boards;), I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it. Never thought the eyeball could be like supermans with bb's bouncing off it:D. Joke btw.:)

Witcher · 25-10-2012 8:01pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Last word, as these things can get waaaaay out of hand on Boards;), I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it. Never thought the eyeball would be like supermans with bb's bouncing off it:D. Joke btw.:)

The eyeball will yield to the blow and distribute the impact across its surface, the can will just puncture. Your eye and your life is safe at 1J.

General Grobel · 25-10-2012 8:48pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Whoa....... easy there Extreme. My "opinion" was that if my pistol or aeg can punch a hole in an aluminium coke can at 20 metres (and all my guns are under the 1 joule limit btw), then what chance has an exposed eyeball? If you say that this is impossible, then have I wasted a lot of money on glasses?. I took a direct hit from very close range straight into my first set of glasses and it was, like Jayod said, a punch to the head. I was momentarily stunned even as the shooter was screaming "take your hits". I decided to buy another pair of glasses after that incident in case there was a chance the first pair had been weakened by this shot. Overkill?, Too cautious?, maybe, but I can send you dozens of coke cans with holes in them which has made me cautious.

Last word, as these things can get waaaaay out of hand on Boards;), I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it. Never thought the eyeball could be like supermans with bb's bouncing off it:D. Joke btw.:)

We wear glasses because it would hurt a hell of a lot to get shot in the eye, and would cause bruising and potentially lasting damage to the structure of the eye. However, a BB isn't going to magically pierce your eyebal at 1j. And even if it could, it would have to go all the way through the eye, AND through bone (please look at a picture of a human skull if you are unsure). As for punching a hole in a coke-can at 20 meters, that sounds rather dubious. It would have to be an unopened can, and even then that sounds sketchy, well none of my RIFs can do that, they struggle to pierce one side at point-blank. Also, I got shot in the glasses plenty of times, once with a tri-shot. The only time I was ever ''stunned'' by a BB was when I got shot in temple and got a migraine.

Sorry to get all ranty, but I get annoyed when people think their personal, subjective and thus fallible experiences equate to verifiable, scientific fact, not to mention common sense.

Steve · 25-10-2012 9:35pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Last word, as these things can get waaaaay out of hand on Boards;), I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it. Never thought the eyeball could be like supermans with bb's bouncing off it:D. Joke btw.:)

Dave, that's pretty much what this proves, you learn something ever day..;)

The rest of ye, calm down a bit please. This forum exists to discuss and educate about Airsoft in a calm and friendly manner, please respect that.

gerrowadat · 25-10-2012 11:14pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Whoa....... easy there Extreme. My "opinion" was that if my pistol or aeg can punch a hole in an aluminium coke can at 20 metres (and all my guns are under the 1 joule limit btw), then what chance has an exposed eyeball? If you say that this is impossible, then have I wasted a lot of money on glasses?. I took a direct hit from very close range straight into my first set of glasses and it was, like Jayod said, a punch to the head. I was momentarily stunned even as the shooter was screaming "take your hits". I decided to buy another pair of glasses after that incident in case there was a chance the first pair had been weakened by this shot. Overkill?, Too cautious?, maybe, but I can send you dozens of coke cans with holes in them which has made me cautious.

Last word, as these things can get waaaaay out of hand on Boards;), I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it. Never thought the eyeball could be like supermans with bb's bouncing off it:D. Joke btw.:)

The surface of your eye is actually quite resilient, moreso than most of your skin surface. It's just that there are a lot of nerve endings, so it hurts like buggery.

If you take a look at the UK Home office's report on this (http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.com/pa/cm199900/cmselect/cmhaff/95/9504.htm) - What it says is "The Home Office and the Forensic Science Service considers that the lowest level of muzzle energy capable of inflicting a penetrating wound is one foot pound (or about 1.35 joules): below these power levels, weapons are "incapable of penetrating even vulnerable parts of the body, such as the eye".[54] However, more recent analysis by the Forensic Science Agency for Northern Ireland has indicated that a more reasonable assessment of the minimum muzzle energy required to inflict a penetrating wound lies between 2.2 and 3.0 ft/lb (3-4 J)." -- A penetrating wound means it actually goes into the skin, so I'd say the second estimate is a little more on the ball, if at either is.

A coke can isn't the same as your skin - metal is harder than flesh in the general sense, but flesh is very good at dissipating impacts, much better than a (relatively) brittle metal can.

In short, there's absolutely no chance even a bb at point blank to an unprotected eye could do the damage you're talking about.

extremetaz · 26-10-2012 9:30am

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Whoa....... easy there Extreme. My "opinion" was that if my pistol or aeg can punch a hole in an aluminium coke can at 20 metres (and all my guns are under the 1 joule limit btw), then what chance has an exposed eyeball?

Your opinion is unfounded and uninformed - I have corrected this with scientific evidence given weight by legal recognition.

When you can back your opinion up with such, THEN I'll reconsider my position that your expressed opinion serves to do anything but undermine the (entirely correct and hard fought for) perception of our sport as an entirely safe and healthy hobby.

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

If you say that this is impossible, then have I wasted a lot of money on glasses?. .... Overkill?, Too cautious?, maybe, but I can send you dozens of coke cans with holes in them which has made me cautious.

Not even in the least, you don't want a bruised eyeball, it's nobody's idea of a good time - however, at the point of conclusion of my research into the matter NOBODY in the world, anywhere, had suffered permanent degredation or loss of vision on account of a bb strike from a 1J airsoft device.

There was one incident I recall finding a refence for (I only cite what I can reference - I don't do hearsay or conjecture) where surgery was required for a detatched retina following a point blank shooting direct to the eyeball (it was part of a huge bullying case and was all over the news at the time), but after a few weeks, vision had returned to normal - the few weeks were required for the aqueous humour to clear itself of blood staining, which was the only resultant reason for the temporary degredation of sight.

The above account is the absolute worst case scenario of a 1J strike.

Rupture or penetration of the eyeball IS NOT POSSIBLE at these energy levels.

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I simply believed (and still do!) that a piece of metal is stronger than a cornea with some aqueous humour behind it.

Yes, but that's exactly the problem isn't it.

Medical and forensic science, given weight by the law, say that you're wrong - yet still you refuse to acknowledge that the posting of your (proven!!) blatently incorrect assertions in the public domain casts aspersions regarding the safety of our sport.

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Never thought.

Fixed that for you.

extremetaz · 26-10-2012 9:44am

gerrowadat wrote: »

A coke can isn't the same as your skin - metal is harder than flesh in the general sense, but flesh is very good at dissipating impacts, much better than a (relatively) brittle metal can.

Just to reiterate this bit - Gerrout is bang on and the word brittle is exactly the correct noun to use.

The harder something is, the more brittle it is, and therefore the more susceptible it is to fracture by a sharp impact.

The eyeball however is anything but hard. It is soft and mallable. It deforms and bounces back.

As Gerrout so eloquently put it, it'll "hurt like buggery" if you make it do it, but it will do it, and it will get over it in short enough order.

@ Jayod30: I'm perfectly willing to accept that Dave may, in general, be a perfectly appropriate poster - however this is not an issue that we, as a community, can allow the lines to be blurred on. Permitting the propogation of idle speculation suggesting that the tools of our sport have lethal capacity is simply something that we CANNOT allow to happen.

The intergral safety of our airsoft devices is paramount to our sport continuing to grow and speculation to the contrary will spread like a cancer among the uninitiated if allowed to do so.

I said earlier that the 1J limit was set as such for very good reasons - well there are also very good reasons why soooo much time and effort was put into sourcing the documents cited above (and you've NO IDEA how hard that was!!). Those documents were cornerstones to the legislative changes which the IAA achieved. They CANNOT be allowed to fall by the wayside.

For the love of christ people - think before you type!

gerrowadat · 26-10-2012 10:55am

extremetaz wrote: »

Just to reiterate this bit - Gerrout is bang on and the word brittle is exactly the correct noun to use.

The harder something is, the more brittle it is, and therefore the more susceptible it is to fracture by a sharp impact.

The eyeball however is anything but hard. It is soft and mallable. It deforms and bounces back.

As Gerrout so eloquently put it, it'll "hurt like buggery" if you make it do it, but it will do it, and it will get over it in short enough order.

@ Jayod30: I'm perfectly willing to accept that Dave may, in general, be a perfectly appropriate poster - however this is not an issue that we, as a community, can allow the lines to be blurred on. Permitting the propogation of idle speculation suggesting that the tools of our sport have lethal capacity is simply something that we CANNOT allow to happen.

The intergral safety of our airsoft devices is paramount to our sport continuing to grow and speculation to the contrary will spread like a cancer among the uninitiated if allowed to do so.

I said earlier that the 1J limit was set as such for very good reasons - well there are also very good reasons why soooo much time and effort was put into sourcing the documents cited above (and you've NO IDEA how hard that was!!). Those documents were cornerstones to the legislative changes which the IAA achieved. They CANNOT be allowed to fall by the wayside.

For the love of christ people - think before you type!

What he said, except less aggro. Jaysis it's like 2009 all over again.

extremetaz · 26-10-2012 10:58am

gerrowadat wrote: »

What he said, except less aggro. Jaysis it's like 2009 all over again.

It was 2008 ya rookie

NakedDex · 26-10-2012 11:05am

To paraphrase a popular catchphrase; Physics says no.
Unlesa you can describe a way that it can happen using evidence rather than speculation, all scientific sources say you're wrong.

TheDoc · 26-10-2012 11:12am

gerrowadat · 26-10-2012 12:46pm

extremetaz wrote: »

It was 2008 ya rookie

No, 2009 was the year we did damage control.

You may need this link: http://www.stjames.ie/Departments/WardsA-Z/B/BurnsUnit/

TheDoc · 26-10-2012 12:50pm

gerrowadat wrote: »

No, 2009 was the year we did damage control.

You may need this link: http://www.stjames.ie/Departments/WardsA-Z/B/BurnsUnit/

oooooo

fayer · 26-10-2012 12:54pm

extremetaz wrote: »

It was 2008 ya rookie

Carlsberg don't do committees, but if they did it would look like this.... Conor, Dave, Aidan, Steve, Keith, Gareth.... O yea, that was 2009!

extremetaz · 26-10-2012 2:34pm

HAHAHAHA!!

Alright then kids - have it your way.

[fondly pats the definitive guide presented to the Dept. of Justice, which he co-authored in 2008]

No prizes for second place.

[I do of course have the fullest of respect for the efforts of the 2009 committee, but I also dislike the inference made towards the initial committee Dave - you guys may have iced the cake, but someone had to break the eggs to make it first.]

OzCam · 28-10-2012 11:07pm

For anyone interested, here are the numbers again.

1.3J to penetrate the eyeball.
BTW, the folks who repair them for a living say that any penetration of an eyeball is a catastrophic injury. You will almost always lose the sight of that eye, not losing the eyeball itself will require prompt and expert surgery.

3-4J to penetrate the skin.
The occasional skin tearing we see in airsoft is usually caused by the backspin on the BB. Also anything much over 3 or 4J in a small cross sectional projectile like a BB can defeat most of the eyewear we use.

13J to cause serious injury.
13J to the temple could really spoil your day. That's why our friends in paintball require full face protection and deprecate headshots.

Ye cannae change the laws of physics, Cap'n.

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 29-10-2012 10:09am

Dave....the 1 joule limit is set there because if will not penetrate an eyeball (hurt like hell maybe, bruse maybe but not penetrate). You would need a good bit more energy than than to penetrate an eye. I have actually cut into a few human eyeballs in college and can tell you there are not soft jelly like you would think.

As the guys above said the law is fragile and with all due respect this childish talk of your airsoft devices being lethal coke can exterminators is not helpful, its about the 3rd of 4th time you have posted about the coke can ballistic test and I cringe each time, but look I have nail guns in my garage that will do more damage, or staple guns...or a hammer for that matter so lets not get excited about the power of our toy guns,

What an airsoft device has is the look of a real firearm and thats the only real power the airsoft gun has, so when wielded by somebody irresponsible willing to pretend its a real firearm it could generate fear, 6mm plastic projectiles from an air-soft device are completely impotent.

Journalists are pretty lazy, I have found with other forums that they will google and find boards threads and treat them as fact. So form this thread they could easily conclude that "according to the boards.ie arisoft forum, an airsoft device is well capable of penetrating metal" so who know what damage it would do if used on a person. The facts can be left out.

Kashkai · 30-10-2012 2:29pm

Ok then, if its "impossible" for a bb to puncture a human eye, then fair enough, I stand corrected (well I'm actually sitting right now but you get the meaning:p).

However, I wouldn't go so far as to describe airsoft as "safe". Like all things in life, its only safe when proper precautions are taken. I've visited several different airsoft sites in the past few months and I've seen some not very safe practices, e.g.:
- at a "safety" briefing, one of the marshalls took all the noobs (I went along too as I hadn't played there before) out and lined them up one by one, told them to turn round and shot them on full auto from their necks down to their calves to let them know what getting hit by a bb "feels like". When he turned to me, I said I've played before and I know what it feels like. His reponse? He shot me from my thigh up to my mid chest "to remind me". When you consider that no one, me included, was wearing eye or face protection at this "safety briefing", you can imagine the risks that eejit took to show what a big man he was. Hell I was facing the moron when he shot me and a ricochet could have hit me in the eye or teeth.

- at the Salute show a while back, one retailer was selling springer pistols to Daddys who turned round and gave them to their little darlings to play with. When I felt a bb whoosh past my cheek, I took my kids away before they got hit. Ok, so springers are low powered, but would anyone want their young kids getting a hit from one?

- young kids (11 - 12?) firing full auto into a stone in the ground to see the bbs ricochet upwards. Despite these bbs hitting people, the marshall was standing there texting his mates.

Thats why I go to Redbarn as it is run well and none of the bs I've noted above would be tolerated there.

As for the coke cans, they do get holed at 20 metres by my TM P226. Have I a magic pistol??:)

NakedDex · 30-10-2012 2:48pm

Just to be clear, it's not...

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

"impossible"

It's impossible. There's no implied questioning or conditionality to it.

Lemming · 30-10-2012 2:55pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

- at a "safety" briefing, one of the marshalls took all the noobs (I went along too as I hadn't played there before) out and lined them up one by one, told them to turn round and shot them on full auto from their necks down to their calves to let them know what getting hit by a bb "feels like". When he turned to me, I said I've played before and I know what it feels like. His reponse? He shot me from my thigh up to my mid chest "to remind me". When you consider that no one, me included, was wearing eye or face protection at this "safety briefing", you can imagine the risks that eejit took to show what a big man he was. Hell I was facing the moron when he shot me and a ricochet could have hit me in the eye or teeth.

Personally, I'd have turned around and walked off site, after demanding (and not budging until receiving) a refund whilst telling the owner "why" in no uncertain terms.

The marshal in question sounds an absolute mong who shouldn't be in charge of tying shoelaces.

- at the Salute show a while back, one retailer was selling springer pistols to Daddys who turned round and gave them to their little darlings to play with. When I felt a bb whoosh past my cheek, I took my kids away before they got hit. Ok, so springers are low powered, but would anyone want their young kids getting a hit from one?

Complain to the organisers straight away so that they can do something about it. Like what happened at T4BB a few years ago. Your first priority is your family's safety so I would have done exactly what you did, but if you don't complain (I'm assuming you didn't), whomever is running a show/game/whatever can't do anything about it.

- young kids (11 - 12?) firing full auto into a stone in the ground to see the bbs ricochet upwards. Despite these bbs hitting people, the marshall was standing there texting his mates.

In-Game? or in a "safe" zone with eye protection removed? If it was an in-game area where everyone is meant to have eye protection on and there hasn't been end-ex called, then it's all fair game and all you have to do is move away out of range. Otherwise, see my above comment about the marshal and being a mong. A lesser mong then the first one you recounted, but still a mong.

As for the coke cans, they do get holed at 20 metres by my TM P226. Have I a magic pistol??:)

No. Coke cans are paper-thin, dent easy, and puncture easy (and I'm ignoring the physics & science, just stating the obvious; Dex will come along later and nail it I'm sure). Ever just "dropped" a can and watched it erupt? The ground isn't magic either.

You have more chance of doing serious injury by physically clubbing someone with a (legal) airsoft gun than shooting BBs at them

jayod30 · 30-10-2012 6:50pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

- at a "safety" briefing, one of the marshalls took all the noobs (I went along too as I hadn't played there before) out and lined them up one by one, told them to turn round and shot them on full auto from their necks down to their calves to let them know what getting hit by a bb "feels like". When he turned to me, I said I've played before and I know what it feels like. His reponse? He shot me from my thigh up to my mid chest "to remind me". When you consider that no one, me included, was wearing eye or face protection at this "safety briefing", you can imagine the risks that eejit took to show what a big man he was. Hell I was facing the moron when he shot me and a ricochet could have hit me in the eye or teeth.

I seen similar s**t like this happen at a particular site, no doubt same site, same marshall

btkm8unsl0w5r4 · 30-10-2012 7:21pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

.

As for the coke cans, they do get holed at 20 metres by my TM P226. Have I a magic pistol??:)

No you don't, a .5 joule springer will penetrate a aluminium can :rolleyes: and honestly if you chrono most Tm pistols you will find they are about .6-.75j depending on the gas pressure. Tm is quality and good hop ups but powerful it ain't.

ricka · 30-10-2012 7:53pm

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

- at the Salute show a while back, one retailer was selling springer pistols to Daddys who turned round and gave them to their little darlings to play with. When I felt a bb whoosh past my cheek, I took my kids away before they got hit. Ok, so springers are low powered, but would anyone want their young kids getting a hit from one?

Dave, since we're one of only two retailers that were at the show selling spring pistols, i'd like some more info on that.
I know your unhappy with kids geting hold of springers, you've said this before.However BB's being fired by kids at salute is not something you've said.
I spoke to all the guys I could on this and none have any recollection of this happening, nor was it said by anyone at the show.
I realise you want to add weight to your argument but did this really happen

Faolchu · 31-10-2012 8:40am

jayod30 wrote: »

I seen similar s**t like this happen at a particular site, no doubt same site, same marshall

As have I only the marshal was kind enough to remind them to wear face masks and took them out into the field out of the safe zone.

That said I wasn't impressed by his behavior. I've since played on that same site a few times and have never seen this repeated. So hopefully it was a one off because he knew the people or they were friends of a regular, not that it would excuse such actions.

TheDoc · 31-10-2012 11:12am

Ugh,

That sort of marshalling is so cringe its not even funny.

Sites get reputations pretty quickly. I don' think anyone has a problem with temporary bad marshalling. Look everyone has to start fresh at it and its not an easy feat. I remember marshalling a fungame at Take Aim Cup and while thank **** everyone playing was bang on and there was no messing, your still ****ting bricks in case something does happen, or some roaring match kicks off.

No one I think will ever have a problem with "inexperienced marshalling" The difference being someone learning the ropes, starting off at it, or being enthusiastic and maybe needing a bit of guidance.

But one thing I wouldn't accept is what was described above, being riddled by a marshall. I'm getting some epic image of a marshall wanting to do that to Moggser, be the last time he does that again for sure. Its in the same vain as firing squads. Its some stupid bravado bollox for some unknown reason, and its just retarded.

TheDoc · 31-10-2012 11:14am

ricka wrote: »

Dave, since we're one of only two retailers that were at the show selling spring pistols, i'd like some more info on that.
I know your unhappy with kids geting hold of springers, you've said this before.However BB's being fired by kids at salute is not something you've said.
I spoke to all the guys I could on this and none have any recollection of this happening, nor was it said by anyone at the show.
I realise you want to add weight to your argument but did this really happen

I don't know if he is talking about this year, but there was definitely one in recent memory (pretty sure it was Salute) where there was low powered, battery operated airsoft guns being carried around by children. They were those mad camo patterns, and in all probability about as much force as a kiss, but I remember it had some of the more " OW MA GOD" brigade ****ting cotton wool

ricka · 31-10-2012 7:52pm

TheDoc wrote: »

I don't know if he is talking about this year, but there was definitely one in recent memory (pretty sure it was Salute) where there was low powered, battery operated airsoft guns being carried around by children. They were those mad camo patterns, and in all probability about as much force as a kiss, but I remember it had some of the more " OW MA GOD" brigade ****ting cotton wool

Don't think that was this year with the kids carrying battery operated Airsoft but may have been last year Doc.
The only reason I came in on the thread, was most people on here know us and know we had a shop beside the IAA tent at this year's salute.I just didn't want people thinking we were handing out loaded pistols to Dads to hand to their kids.I'm really surprised that happened because we're so careful about how we sell these.The idea of any of us handing out a loaded pistol and then watching them being handed to little Johnny is crazy.
I'm sure if he said it happened then it did, however I'd like to know a bit more.
On a personal note most of us retailers survive from selling Airsoft to Mums and Dads for their kids.This is where most Airsoft business is done.
Yes I'm biased, but personally I don't have a problem with kids using Airsoft as long as their using it correctly ie. proper face protection, supervised, on private ground or a skirmish site.
My own kids are 8 and 11 and we go in the back garden regularly to target practice.
My 11 year old just had his first day skirmishing at Redbarn only a couple of weeks ago and after a good talking to by Niall and Damien played the game fair and safe for the whole day.
Kids are well capable of playing with Airsoft guns as long as adults are in control.
In fact from seeing some of the adults playing in the half a dozen times I've skirmished this year, some could take note of how kids play!

gerrowadat · 01-11-2012 4:19am

If I remember correctly there was a retailer a few years back who insisted on selling at Salute, was asked politely not to but claimed he had to recoup his van rental etc. so was unapologetic about it. Some scobes robbed a load of guns off him, so everything worked out in the end.

OzCam · 01-11-2012 9:31pm

ricka wrote: »

Kids are well capable of playing with Airsoft guns as long as adults are in control.
In fact from seeing some of the adults playing in the half a dozen times I've skirmished this year, some could take note of how kids play!

Quoted For Truth.

Steve · 02-11-2012 1:14am

gerrowadat wrote: »

If I remember correctly there was a retailer a few years back who insisted on selling at Salute, was asked politely not to but claimed he had to recoup his van rental etc. so was unapologetic about it. Some scobes robbed a load of guns off him, so everything worked out in the end.

What has that got to do with this thread?

Guy arrested outside a youth club with an imitation shotgun

Comments