Pregnancy from rape is 'God's will' - Apparentely

philologos · 24-10-2012 05:15PM

Mark200 wrote: »

Go to 3:08 here to see what he said:

Admittedly, I don't find it wholly objectionable. It depends on how you understand God's sovereignty and the argument as to the problem of evil. There's a third option, sometimes what is evil, God intends for good.

When we speak of God's will, as Christians we can use it in 3 ways, 2 Biblically sound, the other not so really.
1. What God has done, or will do in this Creation.
2. What God has commanded of His people in this Creation.
3. What God's plan is for our lives.

3 is the wooly one (as if 1 is the case, we can already know what God's will is for our lives by the very fact it will happen, we don't need to guess or seek it out). 1 and 2 are very Biblically sound.

The obvious Biblical example is when Joseph is sold into slavery in Egypt by his brothers, Joseph says to his brothers when they are reunited at the end of the Genesis account:

Genesis 50:19-21 wrote:

But Joseph said to them, “Do not fear, for am I in the place of God? 20 As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good, to bring it about that many people should be kept alive, as they are today. 21 So do not fear; I will provide for you and your little ones.” Thus he comforted them and spoke kindly to them

In this case, God intended the evil that happened to Joseph for good. I suspect in this case the speaker is arguing the same. Rape is a great evil, but life even as a result of pregnancy even from rape is a blessing.

I have no issue with that, and I don't see how it's objectionable.

loveisdivine · 24-10-2012 05:21PM

philologos wrote: »

Rape is a great evil, but life even as a result of pregnancy even from rape is a blessing.

.

A blessing to who? I can really imagine after giving birth to a baby concieved by rape, your first though would be "oh well I'm so blessed to have been raped, now I have this little bundle of joy"

jaja321 · 24-10-2012 05:21PM

philologos wrote: »

Rape is a great evil, but life even as a result of pregnancy even from rape is a blessing.

I have no issue with that, and I don't see how it's objectionable.

A blessing for who? I'm not sure many rape victims would see it that way.

krudler · 24-10-2012 05:24PM

philologos wrote: »

In this case, God intended the evil that happened to Joseph for good. I suspect in this case the speaker is arguing the same. Rape is a great evil, but life even as a result of pregnancy even from rape is a blessing.

I have no issue with that, and I don't see how it's objectionable.

Good thing you can't become pregnant by rape then isn't it. Hear that ladies, unwanted pregnancy through sexual assault is a blessing.

fuck off.

jaja321 · 24-10-2012 05:26PM

krudler wrote: »

Good thing you can't become pregnant by rape then isn't it. Hear that ladies, unwanted pregnancy through sexual assault is a blessing.

fuck off.

Exactly - very easy for someone who will never have to go through that to say. **** like that drives me crazy.

kowloon · 24-10-2012 05:27PM

Just noticed this after looking at the above video.

Nodin · 24-10-2012 05:28PM

hooradiation wrote: »

Just because your saviour was on the cross doesn't mean you've got to hop up there at the slightest provocation.

I salute you Sir. That was a good one.

philologos · 24-10-2012 05:29PM

krudler wrote: »

Good thing you can't become pregnant by rape then isn't it. Hear that ladies, unwanted pregnancy through sexual assault is a blessing.

fuck off.

Charming, that isn't what I said. What I said was that rape isn't a good thing whatsoever at all and neither did he.

What I did say is that a life irrespective of how it is conceived is still a great blessing.

How about you put away the expletives and stop strawmanning what I'm saying with faux-outrage?

krudler · 24-10-2012 05:40PM

philologos wrote: »

Charming, that isn't what I said. What I said was that rape isn't a good thing whatsoever at all and neither did he.

What I did say is that a life irrespective of how it is conceived is still a great blessing.

How about you put away the expletives and stop strawmanning what I'm saying with faux-outrage?

Are you saying pregnancy through rape is a good thing or aren't you? Can we skip to the part where you run away from a thread when called out on your bullsh1t, you know how this goes by now.

Ellis Dee · 24-10-2012 05:42PM

This guy is clearly confusing God's will with the rapist's willy.:D

Wouldn't it be a wonderful world for rapists if they could do the crime and their imaginary friend the sky fairy - the instigator and accessory before, during and after the fact - could do the time? :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Wingnuts like those Teabaggers are, however, right according to what passes for logic in their confused minds insofar as everything is supposed to be part of some kind of divine plan. We shouldn't be surprised at anything that flows from the lips of anyone who believes anything so absurd.:)

philologos · 24-10-2012 05:50PM

krudler wrote: »

Are you saying pregnancy through rape is a good thing or aren't you? Can we skip to the part where you run away from a thread when called out on your bullsh1t, you know how this goes by now.

I don't know, maybe you should read my post first instead of seeking to be outraged at a relatively non-controversial position. Although evil exists, it can work out for good. I've seen this to certain degrees in my own life. There are a lot of bad / painful things that people go through and on occasion they can work out for good even if intended for evil.

That's the position in short that I can see. For as long as you're interested in pulling an elaborate strawman from his position you'll come up with whatever the heck you like.

g'em · 24-10-2012 06:00PM

philologos wrote: »

I don't know, maybe you should read my post first instead of seeking to be outraged at a relatively non-controversial position. Although evil exists, it can work out for good. I've seen this to certain degrees in my own life. There are a lot of bad / painful things that people go through and on occasion they can work out for good even if intended for evil.

philologos I respect your Christian take on the situation, I honestly do. But people are going to react to this fervently and perhaps have a go at you because the opinions you hold sound like they are putting a positive spin on the act of rape itself.

As a woman, to hear someone try to tell me that the outcome of a crime as heinous, personal and degrading as rape is a 'blessing' is something that I can't even comprehend. Rape (of man or woman) invokes primal fear and anger, it is evil on every level possible. In order for me to be able to consider the outcome a blessing it would involve making some sort of peace with the act itself, and I just don't see myself being able to do that. Not hypothetically anyway.

So with respect to your beliefs, I really don't think that the "babies are a blessing" argument has ANY place to play in discussions of rape.

ScumLord · 24-10-2012 06:01PM

Well god did rape Mary so there's some precedent there that he's cool with rape.

super_furry · 24-10-2012 06:02PM

Yep, their God is a dick.

3ndahalfof6 · 24-10-2012 06:05PM

So he raped Mary.

philologos · 24-10-2012 06:06PM

g'em: how do you think society should understand children born through rape? I think my framework as a Christian helps me to understand how I should see other people irrespective of circumstances namely as people born in the image of God. As a result this motivates how Christians seek to love and respect others even those who viciously hate them or what they stand for.

People can react how they like. Taking a strawman of what is said is dishonest though. I've not said rape was positive, if others construe it that way that's lying. Good can sometimes emerge from evil, I think that's true of life that cones out of a horrific situation like that.

Death and Taxes · 24-10-2012 06:10PM

Who is this guy? A spokesman for the Catholic Hierarchy, or the PRO for Youth Defence?:mad:

Paddycrumlinman · 24-10-2012 06:14PM

philologos wrote: »

Charming, that isn't what I said. What I said was that rape isn't a good thing whatsoever at all and neither did he.

What I did say is that a life irrespective of how it is conceived is still a great blessing.

How about you put away the expletives and stop strawmanning what I'm saying with faux-outrage?

Man, I've read your Jesus / God s hit on here for a while now and you are really taking the fooking biscuit with your religious bull-****.

You are a deluded troll my friend, and if you really believe a life that is created out of Rape is a great blessing, which I'm assuming is a blessing from your stupid fooking god, well sir you are truly crazy and are in for a major disappointment at some stage.,

You are a sick twisted individual I have to admit. Wow factor is just crazy.

ScumLord · 24-10-2012 06:14PM

philologos wrote: »

g'em: how do you think society should understand children born through rape? I think my framework as a Christian helps me to understand how I should see other people irrespective of circumstances namely as people born in the image of God.

I don't think anyone in modern society blames the child for what happened to their mother but you do seem to be validating the actions of the rapist making him out to be a tool for gods work.

Yes a child is "a blessing" and the mother will more than likely love them regardless but just because a child of rape can be good, normal and a benefit to the parent doesn't make the rapist a considerate person for bestowing that gift on his victim. The ends don't justify the means because that woman could have gone on to have a child in a more traditional family, with a mother and father and without all the anguish.

Unless there's evidence the children of rape turn out to be super productive members of society I think there's no evidence that children of rape are a necessity to gods plan.

super_furry · 24-10-2012 06:14PM

See that's all well and good but why are people attempting to make laws based on something they can't prove exists? They not only claim to be certain of the existence of a mystical all powerful being that we can't verifibily see, hear or touch. But that they also know what this invisible man wants and that they have the right to tell others how to live their lives and how to behave on the basis of what they think this invisible man wants.

g'em · 24-10-2012 06:15PM

philologos wrote: »

g'em: how do you think society should understand children born through rape? I think my framework as a Christian helps me to understand how I should see other people irrespective of circumstances namely as people born in the image of God. As a result this motivates how Christians seek to love and respect others even those who viciously hate them or what they stand for.

How does society come into this? A child born from rape is treated exactly as any other would, they don't go around with labels stitched into their underpants saying "I'm a rape baby, love me!". That is not what I said above, so your strawman argument is sounding a tad rich.

Your Christian framework may extend to love and respect others but not, it seems, the extent that you will address my actual point. Let me reiterate what I said:

I, as a woman, am tired and sore from reading arguments (notably from men) trying to tell me that there is a plus side to rape. Rape is one of the most heinous crimes that exist and to try and put a positive spin on it is offensive and indecent.

philologos · 24-10-2012 06:19PM

Society comes into it certainly. This issue affects how we understand the human being. If you're going to strongly object to my position on a child conceived or born as a result of rape, I think you need to present an alternative. I believe that there is huge potential to someone who is born in even these horrific circumstances. I believe that great things can truly come from such people.

Irrespective of my gender this issue is up for discussion. There's nothing rich about my position, its looking at this in a fair manner rather than engaging in faux-outrage. Perhaps people should listen and think about this before lobbing ad-hominems in.

g'em · 24-10-2012 06:23PM

philologos wrote: »

Society comes into it certainly. This issue affects how we understand the human being. If you're going to strongly object to my position on a child conceived or born as a result of rape, I think you need to present an alternative. I believe that there is huge potential to someone who is born in even these horrific circumstances. I believe that great things can truly come from such people.

Irrespective of my gender this issue is up for discussion.

It's like talking to Maud Flanders wringing her hands wailing "won't somebody think of the children!!"

Right there is the reason why videos like the one in the OP strike fear into so many people; it's the chance that individuals like that will one day decide National policy on the rights and well being of women who are subject to crimes like rape.

philologos to make that child a woman needs to be raped. Where's your compassion for her in your Christian ethos? Or is the onus on her to accept the rape as an act of God? Like seamus said if the child is a blessing then so is the rape.

3ndahalfof6 · 24-10-2012 06:26PM

Considering this seems to have been taken into a religious context, my question is, did Mary consent, or was she just told, you were violated but you must give birth,

if I am out of place just let me know I will leave.

philologos · 24-10-2012 06:29PM

Forget Maud Flanders. This is a real issue and a difficult one. There's no point in shying away from it. I think the key should be for police resources to reduce sexual assault, I think it's horrific.

However I understand that life born through rape is inherently no different to other life and should be valued.

Again I've made crystal clear rape is horrific, but the life that comes from it is still good irrespective of what circumstances it is conceived in.

What are you saying about that life?
As for lacking compassion what specifically are you referring to?

robman60 · 24-10-2012 06:30PM

While I respect philologos view and agree with it in some ways, I think he's failing to get his point across properly.

Here's an example which I think gets the position across quite well. (It's actually a true story, too).

A woman, who was trying to start a family with her partner was raped. Some time after the rape she found out she was pregnant. Assuming that the father was the rapist, she aborted the child, but requested that a DNA test be carried out on the child to see whose the child was. To her horror, the child she'd aborted was actually her partner's. She was devastated because her child's life was over (this is how it was written in the article as far as I recall, please don't start telling me it wasn't a life or something, that's a separate debate). The question is, if you value life in the womb as a living individual of the human race, the means of conception cannot affect the value of the life.

As absolutely horrific and disgusting as rape is, it doesn't have an effect on how I value the innocent child. When I hear these silly statements - and by any standards, the statement is ludicrous - I think in some way this is what the person is trying to get across.

Edit: Philologos: You've made your position much clearer in the above post.

Also, I think it's worth adding that when people say the child conceived by rape is a blessing, it doesn't necessarily mean a religious blessing. Rather that the child's life and existence is an earthly blessing. That's how I interpret it, at least.

Fighting Irish · 24-10-2012 06:31PM

sure give him publicity

flutterflye · 24-10-2012 06:33PM

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

Considering this seems to have been taken into a religious context, my question is, did Mary consent, or was she just told, you were violated but you must give birth,

if I am out of place just let me know I will leave.

I reckon Mary just shagged someone who wasn't her husband, so had to make up a story.

B0jangles · 24-10-2012 06:36PM

robman60 wrote: »

As absolutely horrific and disgusting as rape is, it doesn't have an effect on how I value the innocent child.

When science is able to transfer a pregnancy from a rape victim into your body for you to bear for nine months and rasise thereafter, then how you "value the innocent child" is relevant.

Until that happens, you should have no expectation to have an input on whether a rape victim chooses to continue with a pregnancy. It's terribly easy to have strong, fixed opinions on things that can never happen to you personally.

3ndahalfof6 · 24-10-2012 06:36PM

Would I be wrong in thinking if someone was raped they would have the option of the morning after pill, stopping any chance of life being started.

once again just let me know if I am reading the thread title wrong, I will abscond.

Pregnancy from rape is 'God's will' - Apparentely

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