Do you Speak Irish?

22-10-2012 08:06PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I didnt say anything about conversing. i was just pointing out that the people who ticked never are more than likely fibbing

I honestly don't believe that they are fibbing, I ticked 'never' with no sense of pride, shame, or jiggery-pokery, I was being honest and I believe that the rest of the people who ticked 'never' did so honestly.
I think you are being pedantic.

LordSutch · 22-10-2012 08:06PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I didnt say anything about conversing.

Ah, Ok then so I do speak Irish in the sense that I know somebody named Roisin . . .

Just so long as you recognise that the question maybe somewhat misleading.

opti0nal · 22-10-2012 08:15PM

deise go deo wrote: »

Why? What if a native English speaking child actually wants to learn Irish? Should they be forbiden?

Certainly not forbidden, they should be able to choose. Just as any other child (or their parents) can choose another language. It should be a basic human right to choose what words come out of your mouth. It's wrong to treat children as cultural hostages.

deise go deo wrote: »

Also, why history? Irish is a modern language, spoken today, Sure it has a history just like any language, but we don't teach other languages in History, why Irish?

Because Irish is not an integral part of modern Irish society. It's quite obviously not the same as French, Mandarin or Russian where those languages are inseparable part of the culture of the respective nations.

Irish is a revered cultural relic and should be respected as such. History lessons might not be the place for this cultural appreciation to take place, but it certainly does not deserve years of imposed lessons when the outcome will be that English-speaking children will utter 'cuplafockle' to impress their foreign friends once a year.

22-10-2012 08:29PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Ah, Ok then so I do speak Irish in the sense that I know somebody named Roisin . . .

Just so long as you recognise that the question maybe somewhat misleading.

Maybe this modest poll is telling us something about the way larger polls concerning the Irish language are conducted.
I don't think it's a trivial matter, for sometimes the results of these polls are used by Irish language enthusiasts to reinforce their argument for 'Irish' being a living, breathing language growing in popularity and usage among everyday folk in Ireland, and therefore the compulsory teaching of Irish is working.
Not to mention TG4 etc.

I truly believe that the bar is set way too low in terms of ascertaining and collating the figures for Irish language proficiency, conversational proficiency, and so on down to 'cupla focail'.

We may have stumbled on to something thanks to 'Crooked Jack' and his imaginary friends Seamus and Roisin.

tehjimmeh · 22-10-2012 10:21PM

Insect Overlord wrote: »

"Tá" isn't a catch-all word for "yes".

(And neither is 'sea...)

What a bizarre statement given the context. In text speak, grammar kinda goes out the window... "Your" and "you're" aren't the same, but they're both "ur" in txtspkz.

I'm a fluent speaker (Irish speaking secondary school), and I'm entirely jaded by the language.

I used to care, but really only because I could speak it myself by accident of the school I was sent to, and the pro-Irish environment that I was immersed in every day.

However, when I think back, in my experience, a lot of the kids in my school couldn't even speak Irish that well. So much awful, awful, awful grammar. Irish words being thrown out with an English sentence structure, English words being thrown in extremely frequently and if you ever used a word that was a little bit obscure, people would look at you as if you had two heads. Not to mention the fact that English was often spoken when teachers' backs were turned.

Since I've left school, my Irish speaking outlets are few (even less now, as I live in the US). I do enjoy speaking it when I do have a chance. I don't really seek it out all that much though, for various reasons. For a start, I personally find that there's a little too much association with trad music/Irish dancing/GAA/eire32/tiochfaidh ar la - most of which I don't have a lot of interest in. I also find they complain about the most asinine things (In Teach na nGealt right now, there's a thread compaining about Tesco not offering Irish on their self service machines, as if it's some sort of violation of their human rights. Then there's the insistence that every government document be translated into Irish etc., which does absolutely nothing for the language.)

Then there's the fact that almost any media produced in Irish is either extremely contrived or cringeworthy beyond belief (don't get me started on Des Bishop - oh my fucking God...), and always gives the impression that it was created enitrely for the sake of creating something in Irish, rather than something which just happens to use Irish as the language used. That said, I had a lot of love for TG4's Irish language rubgy coverage, and some of their Irish language documentaries have been awesome.

So, to summarize, for me, "Gaeilge briste > Bearla cliste" being taken WAY too far, too tight an association with specific interests and politics, too much complaining and militancy with regards insignificant shit, and a lack of quality media that doesn't feel extremely artificial are my reasons for being turned off in recent years.

gbee · 23-10-2012 07:55AM

tehjimmeh wrote: »

So, to summarize, for me, "Gaeilge briste > Bearla cliste" being taken WAY too far, too tight an association with specific interests and politics, too much complaining and militancy with regards insignificant shit, and a lack of quality media that doesn't feel extremely artificial are my reasons for being turned off in recent years.

quod erat demonstrandum

Lord TSC · 23-10-2012 08:39AM

deise go deo wrote: »

So are the people who said Never

*Starts poll to ask if people are speaking Irish*

*Tells the majority who say they don't that they are lying*

Seriously, what's the point of starting a poll if you then reject the options yourself :S

On the upside, apparently by some people's definitions, I now speak about 8 languages, since I know a "coupla focal" of French, German, Spanish, Chinese, Klingon....

4zn76tysfajdxp · 23-10-2012 08:56AM

Jesus deise go deo, here you are once again banging the same old drum. Do you not have any other interests or hobbies?

gbee · 23-10-2012 08:57AM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

, Klingon....

Jol jIH chaQ

23-10-2012 09:42AM

tehjimmeh wrote: »

What a bizarre statement given the context. In text speak, grammar kinda goes out the window... "Your" and "you're" aren't the same, but they're both "ur" in txtspkz.

I'm a fluent speaker (Irish speaking secondary school), and I'm entirely jaded by the language.

I used to care, but really only because I could speak it myself by accident of the school I was sent to, and the pro-Irish environment that I was immersed in every day.

However, when I think back, in my experience, a lot of the kids in my school couldn't even speak Irish that well. So much awful, awful, awful grammar. Irish words being thrown out with an English sentence structure, English words being thrown in extremely frequently and if you ever used a word that was a little bit obscure, people would look at you as if you had two heads. Not to mention the fact that English was often spoken when teachers' backs were turned.

Since I've left school, my Irish speaking outlets are few (even less now, as I live in the US). I do enjoy speaking it when I do have a chance. I don't really seek it out all that much though, for various reasons. For a start, I personally find that there's a little too much association with trad music/Irish dancing/GAA/eire32/tiochfaidh ar la - most of which I don't have a lot of interest in. I also find they complain about the most asinine things (In Teach na nGealt right now, there's a thread compaining about Tesco not offering Irish on their self service machines, as if it's some sort of violation of their human rights. Then there's the insistence that every government document be translated into Irish etc., which does absolutely nothing for the language.)

Then there's the fact that almost any media produced in Irish is either extremely contrived or cringeworthy beyond belief (don't get me started on Des Bishop - oh my fucking God...), and always gives the impression that it was created enitrely for the sake of creating something in Irish, rather than something which just happens to use Irish as the language used. That said, I had a lot of love for TG4's Irish language rubgy coverage, and some of their Irish language documentaries have been awesome.

So, to summarize, for me, "Gaeilge briste > Bearla cliste" being taken WAY too far, too tight an association with specific interests and politics, too much complaining and militancy with regards insignificant shit, and a lack of quality media that doesn't feel extremely artificial are my reasons for being turned off in recent years.

You'll now be accused of being a 'self-loathing Irishman' or a 'West Brit', or perhaps your opponents will see a chink in your armour because of your fondness for Rugby, but IMO your post is a comprehensive demolition of humbug and cant.
If I thought that you were going to stick around on this thread, I'd feel redundant, get my coat and exit forthwith.
Well done!

gerarda · 23-10-2012 09:53AM

I think I posted about this before but not sure? I have no issue with the language itself but I think the biggest issue is the way it is taught. I left school in '89 delighted that I will never have to look at this book ever again:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peig-Irish-Studies-Sayers/dp/0815602588/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350982343&sr=1-6

Some of the lads in my class got letters from parents excusing them from Irish class as they had no interest in pursuing a career that required it in the leaving cert.

the_syco · 23-10-2012 09:55AM

carrig2 wrote: »

Would you also stop teaching French and German because apart from helping me solve crossword clues and work out the points/countries in the Eurovision I never used these and I doubt many other students did

The places were people speak Irish; small.
Places were people speak French or German; VERY BIG.

So if you stopped learning Irish, and learnt French or German, you'd have a lot better chance getting a job than someone who learnt Irish.

gobnaitolunacy · 23-10-2012 09:58AM

gerarda wrote: »

I think I posted about this before but not sure? I have no issue with the language itself but I think the biggest issue is the way it is taught. I left school in '89 delighted that I will never have to look at this book ever again:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Peig-Irish-Studies-Sayers/dp/0815602588/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1350982343&sr=1-6

Some of the lads in my class got letters from parents excusing them from Irish class as they had no interest in pursuing a career that required it in the leaving cert.

This symbolises everything that was wrong with the teaching of Irish. Reading about some crone on an island off the tip of the arse end of nowhere.

Rivetting stuff.

An Coilean · 23-10-2012 10:01AM

tehjimmeh wrote: »

However, when I think back, in my experience, a lot of the kids in my school couldn't even speak Irish that well. So much awful, awful, awful grammar.

Sounds like any English speaking school school I have been in.

I also find they complain about the most asinine things (In Teach na nGealt right now, there's a thread compaining about Tesco not offering Irish on their self service machines, as if it's some sort of violation of their human rights. Then there's the insistence that every government document be translated into Irish etc., which does absolutely nothing for the language.)

Its not about a 'violatation of human rights', its about the leading company in the marketplace providing a very poor service to a section of the comunity.
As customers, we are getting as very poor service, so make a complaint, thats how its supposed to work.
As for translating government documents into Irish, it does quite a bit for the language.

Then there's the fact that almost any media produced in Irish is either extremely contrived or cringeworthy beyond belief (don't get me started on Des Bishop - oh my fucking God...), and always gives the impression that it was created enitrely for the sake of creating something in Irish, rather than something which just happens to use Irish as the language used. That said, I had a lot of love for TG4's Irish language rubgy coverage, and some of their Irish language documentaries have been awesome.

Thats you perception, most stuff in Irish I have come across has been better than the rubbish you will find on RTÉ or TV3.
As for print media, its scarce on the ground, but Gaelscéal is very well put together imo.

deise go deo · 23-10-2012 10:06AM

Lila Delightful Sty wrote: »

Jesus deise go deo, here you are once again banging the same old drum. Do you not have any other interests or hobbies?

I didn't revive this thread, It was started months ago.

By the way, have you stopped beating your wife?

Iwasfrozen · 23-10-2012 10:15AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Its not about a 'violatation of human rights', its about the leading company in the marketplace providing a very poor service to a section of the comunity.
As customers, we are getting as very poor service, so make a complaint, thats how its supposed to work.
As for translating government documents into Irish, it does quite a bit for the language.

That's strange. I was of the impression that Irish speakers received an identical service to English speakers.

deise go deo wrote:

By the way, have you stopped beating your wife?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FONN-0uoTHI

4zn76tysfajdxp · 23-10-2012 10:31AM

deise go deo wrote: »

By the way, have you stopped beating your wife?

Never.

somairle · 23-10-2012 10:38AM

Sometimes, I am not from Ireland but spent a few years learning it off my own bat and I use a few words everyday with the missus but my Irish is quite basic, I am going to try and finish it off and get some level of fluency soon just because I've put so much effort in so far it'd be a waste if all I could say we're the things most people spent 14 years learning in school. I doubt I will ever use it 'often' though, but as a keen (amature) historian it is a good tool for Irish history given most of the source documents are in Irish and are superior to any English translations

BrensBenz · 23-10-2012 11:04AM

No. Irish was rammed down my throat in school - "Fail Irish and you fail your Leaving Cert". Those days may be gone and I understand that this blackmail was perpetrated by the government of the day(s) and not by the language itself, but the nasty taste remains.
However, I did try to encourage an interest in Irish in my kids, particularly in the short stories of Padraic O'Conaire, but my efforts produced nothing but copious amounts of....meh.

Wibbs · 23-10-2012 11:04AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Sounds like any English speaking school school I have been in.

To not nearly the same degree. I'd put good money that the grammar nazis that get their onanistic jollies over "their/there/they're" as Bearla in say After Hours, would if they were native Irish speakers fatally succumb to paroxysms of pleasure in Teach na nGealt.

Its not about a 'violatation of human rights', its about the leading company in the marketplace providing a very poor service to a section of the comunity.

To a tiny section of the community, who in the vast vast majority of cases are native English speakers and have a wider vocabulary and command of same. There are very few people about on this island whose command of Irish is better than their command of English. If the usual(and yawn inducing) example of recently settled native Polish speaking citizens had an issue, they might have a point as very very few would have better English than Polish.

As customers, we are getting as very poor service,

Very poor service? Only as an intellectual exercise. Why? See above.

As for demand for this, I'd love to see the stats for the bank ATM's that already have this bilingual facility. I'd again put good money down that those who choose Gaelige are... I suppose the statisticians technical term would be "Fcukall".

As for translating government documents into Irish, it does quite a bit for the language translators.

FYP.

Thats you perception, most stuff in Irish I have come across has been better than the rubbish you will find on RTÉ or TV3.

I'd tend to agree with you here. Yes you do get the "country and western" shows, grand old opry on mogadon with LSD chasers, cringe worthy "dating shows" and the interviews with some ex nun who expands for half an hour on how once she saw a car in Gweedore, but generally the home grown TG4 stuff is pretty damn good. Some interesting documentaries on all sorts of subjects. I'd most certainly watch TG4 way more than I'd subject myself to the vomit in a rip off faux pleather handbag that is TV3.

An Coilean · 23-10-2012 11:09AM

Wibbs wrote: »

To a tiny section of the community, who in the vast vast majority of cases are native English speakers and have a wider vocabulary and command of same. There are very few people about on this island whose command of Irish is better than their command of English.

Be that as it may, Tesco have accepted the complaints made and have siad that their self service checkouts will be provided in Irish, and they will be reviewing their signage policy, full details will be out next week I'm told.

Wibbs · 23-10-2012 11:12AM

Merely a case of the squeaky wheel gets the oil. A very squeaky and self indulgent wheel in the case of your Gaelgoirs. Another waste of money, though in this case not public money so Tesco can knock themselves out. It'll still be a teeny tiny minority who will end up using the facility. Yet another circular cultural argument for Irish. Which is a pity.

An Coilean · 23-10-2012 11:18AM

Wibbs wrote: »

Merely a case of the squeaky wheel gets the oil. A very squeaky and self indulgent wheel in the case of your Gaelgoirs. Another waste of money, though in this case not public money so Tesco can knock themselves out. It'll still be a teeny tiny minority who will end up using the facility. Yet another circular cultural argument for Irish. Which is a pity.

The only way forward for the Irish language is to ensure that it is used, and can be used in every aspect of life.
You can shout bah humbug all you like, I will still use Irish in Tesco.

It really is a pitty begrudgery is so deeply ingraind in some people.

Iwasfrozen · 23-10-2012 11:20AM

An Coilean wrote: »

The only way forward for the Irish language is to ensure that it is used, and can be used in every aspect of life.
You can shout bah humbug all you like, I will still use Irish in Tesco.

That's nice. How many else will?

An Coilean · 23-10-2012 11:22AM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

That's nice. How many else will?

Haven't the foggiest, why?

Lord TSC · 23-10-2012 11:23AM

One would imagine Tesco would be able to keep tabs of how often the service is used quite easily. Will be interesting to see if a year after its release, the Irish language lobby will work towards getting these figures made public in a bid to prove how many people want and use the service

Iwasfrozen · 23-10-2012 11:24AM

An Coilean wrote: »

Haven't the foggiest, why?

Because it would be an interesting statistic to use in these conversations.

An Coilean · 23-10-2012 11:27AM

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

One would imagine Tesco would be able to keep tabs of how often the service is used quite easily. Will be interesting to see if a year after its release, the Irish language lobby will work towards getting these figures made public in a bid to prove how many people want and use the service

I doubt they keep track of it tbh, why would that be built into a self service checkout?
I suppose Tesco could get something installed to keep track of it, but I doubt they will put themselves to the extra expence.
An easy way to find out would be to send an Email to Tesco in Wales, they bilingual system is already in operation there, if they keep track of it there, then they probably will here.

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Because it would be an interesting statistic to use in these conversations.

I'm sure it would, given that this has just been anounced, and is not yet actually available, that statistic doesn't exist as far as I am aware.

Iwasfrozen · 23-10-2012 11:30AM

An Coilean wrote: »

I'm sure it would, given that this has just been anounced, and is not yet actually available, they don't exist as far as I am aware.

Yes I know that. That's why I said will. I hope Tesco releases the figures a year from introduction.

Lord TSC · 23-10-2012 11:30AM

An Coilean wrote: »

I doubt they keep track of it tbh, why would that be built into a self service checkout?

As a business being forced to spend money on a venture, maybe they'd want to see if they were getting a return on their investment? Since they are going to the expense of installing the new software, it would cost next to nothing to have a part of it keep track of how often someone actually used the Irish version of the checkout system....

Do you Speak Irish?

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