Do you Speak Irish?

the_syco · 22-10-2012 03:05PM

Fluorescence wrote: »

Not true. When I did the Leaving the Hons and Ord classes had the exact same oral - the examiner wasn't told what level the candidate was taking.

I don't know if it's changed now that the oral is worth so much more, but saying Ord was never taught to speak is a total lie.

It was less to do with the examiner, and more to do with how I was taught. Whilst in pass, I was taught how to read poems and stories; maybe the oral part came later, I don't know. I got kicked down from hons to pass in 1st year, and to foundo in 2nd year and was only taught how to answer questions in foundo. The examiner knew I was foundo, and would rephrase the questions when he saw that I was stuck during the orals.

Malari · 22-10-2012 03:12PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Not nearly to the same extent as Irish. You dont turn on the news during the day and hear it in latin. The roads signs arent in English and Italian. Our place names, political parties, national anthem etc... dont come from French.
We dont have entire regions where people mainly speak German.
I'm not being silly. Never means never, it doesnt mean sometimes or rarely.

The point is that you can say these names but not actually understand what they mean and you wouldn't call that speaking the language, would you?

purplepanda · 22-10-2012 03:54PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Hardly 800 years. Small pockets of old English maybe, but Norse French far more likely. There were few enough English people here 800 years ago. Hell the Normans in England spoke more French than English. It took three centuries of Norman rule before one of their kings was a fluent English speaker. Richard the Lionheart that oh so "English" king, had barely a word of it(and avoided living in England as much as he could).

The English language wouldn't have come over in any real numbers until the plantations. Certainly not in the rural areas. Even then Irish was spoken in the cities and by many of the old "Norman" families. Something seems to have happened it in the 18th century. At the start of same it would have been the majority language by a goodly margin, by the end of that century it had shrunk. By the time the famine came about it was already well in decline.

The Yola language spoken in South County Wexford became a form of English well before the reformation, some accounts mention it was originally Norse influenced due to Viking settlement but English & Flemish settlers contibuted to the change after the Norman era.

There was also a minor French & Welsh influence & around 15-20% Irish words in Yola.

And athough the population was catholic, the fact that most spoke, a "similar" tongue to English possibly contributed to the region not being planted during the 16-17th centuries as other nearby regions were.

A similar process occured in Pembrokeshire. Wales, between the Welsh & English speaking regions, (also originally Viking settlements) during the Norman period.

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/radio-documentary-yola-language-wexford.html

Crooked Jack · 22-10-2012 03:54PM

Malari wrote: »

The point is that you can say these names but not actually understand what they mean and you wouldn't call that speaking the language, would you?

If you're asking me personally, I know what they mean. I would also say most people know what they mean. I have nothing to back that up, i just find it hard to believe that somebody could reach adulthood without ever finding out what they meant.
Do you, for example, understand them?

Malari · 22-10-2012 03:59PM

No, many of them I don't. I don't understand the literal translation of Fianna Fail for example. But I don't need to know either, because I understand that they are a political party. I just don't think that's what is understood by "speaking Irish".

22-10-2012 04:07PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Not nearly to the same extent as Irish. You dont turn on the news during the day and hear it in latin. The roads signs arent in English and Italian. Our place names, political parties, national anthem etc... dont come from French.
We dont have entire regions where people mainly speak German.
I'm not being silly. Never means never, it doesnt mean sometimes or rarely.

Good.
Then if most of us speak Irish without consciously doing so, what do you know, we're already bilingual, problem solved.
No more need to 'push' a language we already speak!

Crooked Jack · 22-10-2012 04:19PM

Malari wrote: »

No, many of them I don't. I don't understand the literal translation of Fianna Fail for example. But I don't need to know either, because I understand that they are a political party. I just don't think that's what is understood by "speaking Irish".

I could be about to show myself up here but Fianna comes from the ancient Irish warriors from old stories and Fail, come from Fál, an old word for Ireland.
It has come to be generally understood as soldiers of destiny rather than soldiers of Ireland, the reason behind this I dont know but I assume it's similar to the way people mistake Sinn Fein for Ourselves Alone, when in my understanding it would just be Ourselves. Again, I'm open to correction on that.
Now I know you dont need to know that but isnt it interesting to find out where these things come from. Aren't you at least curious about Irish?

Crooked Jack · 22-10-2012 04:20PM

9959 wrote: »

Good.
Then if most of us speak Irish without consciously do so, what do you know, we're already bilingual, problem solved.
No more need to 'push' a language we already speak!

It seems you can barely speak English without consciously do so.

opti0nal · 22-10-2012 05:46PM

carrig2 wrote: »

I think that children should have to learn it in primary school ... I see no point in forcing people to learn a language.

Children are people, will you give them and their parents a choice?

carrig2 wrote: »

When i say our identity I mean ours as a nation.

Forcing children to speak Irish is also part of our Identity too. But this is not something to be proud of.

carrig2 wrote: »

whatever your personal view you cannot deny that a language plays its part in defining the culture of a nation.

And since English is much more widely spoken here than Irish, it plays a more significant role in our identity than Irish.

22-10-2012 06:17PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

It seems you can barely speak English without consciously do so.

Good one!

miralize · 22-10-2012 06:18PM

The people who said "Sometimes" are lying...

deise go deo · 22-10-2012 06:26PM

miralize wrote: »

The people who said "Sometimes" are lying...

So are the people who said Never

22-10-2012 06:37PM

miralize wrote: »

The people who said "Sometimes" are lying...

Well if your brother's name is Seamus and your sister's name is Roisin, you're home and hosed.

Malari · 22-10-2012 06:47PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I could be about to show myself up here but Fianna comes from the ancient Irish warriors from old stories and Fail, come from Fál, an old word for Ireland.
It has come to be generally understood as soldiers of destiny rather than soldiers of Ireland, the reason behind this I dont know but I assume it's similar to the way people mistake Sinn Fein for Ourselves Alone, when in my understanding it would just be Ourselves. Again, I'm open to correction on that.
Now I know you dont need to know that but isnt it interesting to find out where these things come from. Aren't you at least curious about Irish?

I'm curious about some placenames, sure, but usually anglicised versions of the original Irish. That wasn't my argument though. I just don't think you can claim you are speaking Irish if you refer to a political party or talk to a few friends with Irish names.

carrig2 · 22-10-2012 06:47PM

opti0nal wrote: »

Children are people, will you give them and their parents a choice?

Forcing children to speak Irish is also part of our Identity too. But this is not something to be proud of.

And since English is much more widely spoken here than Irish, it plays a more significant role in our identity than Irish.

A primary school child or their parent is not permitted to opt out of any subject art, PE, history etc so no I would not give any primary school child or their parents a choice of opting out of Irish. Students start to make a choice in secondary schools so I would then give them the option of opting not to study Irish.

And if you read back on my posts, I mentioned English being part of our identity.

kowloon · 22-10-2012 06:48PM

Perhaps '...converse in Irish' would have been a better title.

Iwasfrozen · 22-10-2012 06:53PM

kowloon wrote: »

Perhaps '...converse in Irish' would have been a better title.

I'm sure that was the intention though.

peil · 22-10-2012 07:02PM

Since half my friends speak Irish fluently and the other half haven't a clue, I rarely do although I'm fluent

opti0nal · 22-10-2012 07:02PM

carrig2 wrote: »

A primary school child or their parent is not permitted to opt out of any subject art, PE, history etc so no I would not give any primary school child or their parents a choice of opting out of Irish.

That's no justification.

Irish as a language should only be taught to native speakers.

English-speaking children should learn about Irish and those who speak it, as part of history. Rather that wasting years of coercive Irish language lessons, much cheaper to give them a crib-sheet of the the 'cupla-focal' as that's all they will ever use.

carrig2 · 22-10-2012 07:05PM

opti0nal wrote: »

That's no justification.

Irish as a language should only be taught to native speakers.

English-speaking children should learn about Irish and those who speak it, as part of history. Rather that wasting years of coercive Irish language lessons, much cheaper to give them a crib-sheet of the the 'cupla-focal' as that's all they will ever use.

Would you also stop teaching French and German because apart from helping me solve crossword clues and work out the points/countries in the Eurovision I never used these and I doubt many other students did

opti0nal · 22-10-2012 07:12PM

carrig2 wrote: »

Would you also stop teaching French and German because apart from helping me solve crossword clues and work out the points/countries in the Eurovision I never used these and I doubt many other students did

I would allow people to choose.

Unfortunately, you made a Freudian slip earlier when you said that:

I think that children should have to learn it in primary school ... I see no point in forcing people to learn a language.

Children are people.

deise go deo · 22-10-2012 07:14PM

opti0nal wrote: »

That's no justification.

Irish as a language should only be taught to native speakers.

English-speaking children should learn about Irish and those who speak it, as part of history. Rather that wasting years of coercive Irish language lessons, much cheaper to give them a crib-sheet of the the 'cupla-focal' as that's all they will ever use.

Why? What if a native English speaking child actually wants to learn Irish? Should they be forbiden?

Also, why history? Irish is a modern language, spoken today, Sure it has a history just like any language, but we don't teach other languages in History, why Irish?

miralize · 22-10-2012 07:23PM

9959 wrote: »

Well if your brother's name is Seamus and your sister's name is Roisin, you're home and hosed.

My name is Seán. Doesn't mean I converse in Irish

carrig2 · 22-10-2012 07:27PM

opti0nal wrote: »

I would allow people to choose.

Unfortunately, you made a Freudian slip earlier when you said that:

[quoteI think that children should have to learn it in primary school ... I see no point in forcing people to learn a language.

Children are people.[/QUOTE]

Primary school children do not choose their subjects. That is not my doing.
Secondary school students are children. They have a choice

peil · 22-10-2012 07:28PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I could be about to show myself up here but Fianna comes from the ancient Irish warriors from old stories and Fail, come from Fál, an old word for Ireland.
It has come to be generally understood as soldiers of destiny rather than soldiers of Ireland, the reason behind this I dont know but I assume it's similar to the way people mistake Sinn Fein for Ourselves Alone, when in my understanding it would just be Ourselves. Again, I'm open to correction on that.
Now I know you dont need to know that but isnt it interesting to find out where these things come from. Aren't you at least curious about Irish?

Fál is often used as the word for destiny. I'm not sure if it's right, but in a book I read it mentioned Brian Boru standing on the Lia Fáil (stone of destiny in Tara).
As for Sinn Féinn I went to a gaelscoil and I thought it would literally be Us Alone. And I don't know if I'm right on that either.

I just read on wikipedia that the old name for Ireland was Inis Fáil, Isle of Destiny. That's wikipedia, so I don't know how accurate it is but it references this book http://www.libraryireland.com/Wonders/Lia-Fail-1.php

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 22-10-2012 07:38PM

carrig2 wrote: »

Children are people.

Primary school children do not choose their subjects. That is not my doing.
Secondary school students are children. They have a choice[/QUOTE]

Not where Irish is concerned. And secondary school kids are also people.

22-10-2012 07:42PM

miralize wrote: »

My name is Seán. Doesn't mean I converse in Irish

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dont believe that there is anybody here who never speaks Irish.
I mean never?
They've never had cause to name Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein aloud, never read a road sign or sign for the toilet.
Have never uttered a single word of the national anthem.
Never casually said go raibh maith agat, cen fath or dia duit.
Never had to mention a local townland, mountain or river that in all likelihood is in Irish or a derivative form of it.
No friends called Roisin, Seaneen or Seamus.
You may think I'm being pedantic here....

Sean, I agree with you.
I should have quoted the above (edited) post to which I was sardonically referring.

LordSutch · 22-10-2012 07:50PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I dont believe that there is anybody here who never speaks Irish.
I mean never?
They've never had cause to name Fianna Fail or Sinn Fein aloud, never read a road sign or sign for the toilet.
Have never uttered a single word of the national anthem.
Never casually said go raibh maith agat, cen fath or dia duit.
Never had to mention a local townland, mountain or river that in all likelihood is in Irish or a derivative form of it.
No friends called Roisin, Seaneen or Seamus.
You may think I'm being pedantic here but Irish is all around us and its influence can be strongly found even in English, not just in the words we use but in the way we structure sentences, so I find it hard to believe that there are more than 200 people here who never speak it.
Rarely; possibly, but never? Really?

Well as somebody who lives in South Dublin I can safely say that I never speak (converse) in Irish, and neither do I know anybody else who speaks Irish, and this would involve my extensive family, friends, work colleagues. Going forward I will have to learn a little Irish due to my kids having to do Irish in school :cool:

Speaking Irish = speaking/conversing in Irish.

Crooked Jack · 22-10-2012 07:51PM

9959 wrote: »

Sean, I agree with you.
I should have quoted the above (edited) post to which I was sardonically referring.

I didnt say anything about conversing. i was just pointing out that the people who ticked never are more than likely fibbing

miralize · 22-10-2012 07:59PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I didnt say anything about conversing. i was just pointing out that the people who ticked never are more than likely fibbing

Theyre just being logical. Speaking in this sense, does not mean saying the odd word here and there.

Do you Speak Irish?

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