St Patrick’s Institute - damning report by Inspector of Prisons

Nodin · 17-10-2012 06:42PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Who cares about prisoners, put them in a cell with some hay, feed them a bowl of porridge everyday, nothing else... no visits no recreational time, make prison hell so nobody wants to go there. If they re-offend hang them.

....that was the situation for hundreds of years. Not only that, you were charged for the porridge. It didn't work.

jugger0 · 17-10-2012 06:51PM

Nodin wrote: »

....that was the situation for hundreds of years. Not only that, you were charged for the porridge. It didn't work.

It could work better now with today's technology, and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

Nodin · 17-10-2012 07:02PM

jugger0 wrote: »

It could work better now with today's technology, .

Funny, the approach you outlined seemed rather technology free. You might explain what you mean there.

jugger0 wrote: »

and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

America is harder, yet even more violent.

Pablo Rubio · 17-10-2012 07:26PM

So Minister Shatter plans to close St. Patrick's Institution by 2014. Where does he plan to put these Guys who stab people in the head and murder them , shoot young girls in the face and murder them, break into pensioners homes and scald them, mug foreign vistors and blind them , and ram Garda cars in stillorgan and kill the 2 officers,kill shopkeepers in Arklow and sell drugs to other juveniles.........
Let them back out into the community and see what they do and then stick them all back in prison in a knee jerk reaction again when they kill more gardai and pensioners and shopkeepers and public sentiment demands it.

Too many do gooders around at the moment I say

Gee Bag · 17-10-2012 07:58PM

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

So Minister Shatter plans to close St. Patrick's Institution by 2014. Where does he plan to put these Guys who stab people in the head and murder them , shoot young girls in the face and murder them, break into pensioners homes and scald them, mug foreign vistors and blind them , and ram Garda cars in stillorgan and kill the 2 officers,kill shopkeepers in Arklow and sell drugs to other juveniles.........
Let them back out into the community and see what they do and then stick them all back in prison in a knee jerk reaction again when they kill more gardai and pensioners and shopkeepers and public sentiment demands it.

Too many do gooders around at the moment I say

I think the plan is to simply build a prison thats fit for purpose.

Greenmachine · 17-10-2012 08:17PM

I don't see what the racket is with a 17 year old being in the same prision as a 21. What a pile of nonsense. Denied visits, so what. Actions have consequence, If a young child misbehaves you put them on a naughty step. A older child you might ground them for a week, not let them see their friend. Can't see anyone being appalled by that. Why the fuss over the little toe rag. Sure everything is someone else fault but theirs. "Guards are scum" etc. They just seem to perceive every slight, as an attack, on their precious rights.

Keep them in pat's, give them access to shrinks, and smash their deluded sense of victimization.

Nodin · 17-10-2012 08:20PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

I don't see (.....)and smash the deluded sense of victimisation.

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

mattjack · 17-10-2012 08:27PM

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

Read the report, how dare you suggest reading 'the report' ? you and I both know that when you read reports you might get a sense of perspective or even an idea what's going, thus deflating any sense of reason or purpose when posting in AH.

How are ya Mr Nodin ?

Nodin · 17-10-2012 08:29PM

mattjack wrote: »

Read the report, how dare you suggest reading 'the report' ? you and I both know that when you read reports you might get a sense of perspective or even an idea what's going, thus deflating any sense of reason or purpose when posting in AH.

How are ya Mr Nodin ?

I'm the same oul bollix I always was, ty for askin.

GalwayGuy2 · 17-10-2012 08:31PM

It could work better now with today's technology, and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

I don 't believe in the whole porridge or confinement bordering on depravity, but there should be instant reprisals for breaking a law. I think the law should work in a way that if you are overpaid in some governmental way (grant, whatever) you'll give the surplus back as you know you'll have to give it back later. If that makes any sense?

Greenmachine · 17-10-2012 08:34PM

Don't care what the recommendations say. You could ask me what make of car to buy. And year after year I tell you the same thing. "Buy a Honda..." When you eventually buy something you buy a smart car. Now it doesn't mean just because I recommended year after year you buy a honda, that I was right.

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

Nodin · 17-10-2012 08:38PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

Don't care what the recommendations say. ..............

Don't care about the recommendations, don't care about why they criticised what they did, don't give a shit. The same oul rabble rabble mentality that condemns us to a viscous cycle that is in fact breakable.

Greenmachine · 17-10-2012 08:41PM

Nodin wrote: »

Don't care about the recommendations, don't care about why they criticised what they did, don't give a shit. The same oul rabble rabble mentality that condemns us to a viscous cycle that is in fact breakable.

So how do you recommend we change things. Forget about the report. What is your solution.

Nodin · 17-10-2012 08:44PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

So how do you recommend we change things. Forget about the report. What is your solution.

A system based on rehabilitation and prison, like the scandanavians have. It's been shown to work.

Greenmachine · 17-10-2012 09:02PM

Rehabilitation is only part of the equation would love to see criminals go clean. Don't like hearing about the victims of crime. One thing since you brought it up that I think is appallingly wrong is the shortness of sentences in the Scandanavian, especially for serious crimes, like murder. Youth could get a 3 year sentence for murder. If they don't re-offend, we have have the desired outcome. There is a serious lack of justice for the victims in such situation. These things to be honest should be sorted before these people become a menace. Court appointed psych session. If they don't attend, their parents receive no child benefit for them. If that does not get them inline, time for a few weeks in a cell.

GalwayGuy2 · 17-10-2012 09:04PM

A system based on rehabilitation and prison, like the scandanavians have. It's been shown to work.

Hmm, tbf we're not Scandinavian.

Nodin · 17-10-2012 09:10PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmm, tbf we're not Scandinavian.

And the point of this observation...?

withless · 17-10-2012 09:15PM

What's the tax on that?

GalwayGuy2 · 17-10-2012 09:21PM

And the point of this observation...?

Is that there's many cultural and social issues at play in Scandinavian countries. You can't just say, "Hey let's do what Sweden does, that'll work". Or the dreaded "Hey, we have oil. We're exactly like Norway".

Nodin · 17-10-2012 09:28PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Is that there's many cultural and social issues at play in Scandinavian countries. You can't just say, "Hey let's do what Sweden does, that'll work". Or the dreaded "Hey, we have oil. We're exactly like Norway".

I think it's a better bet to try something that has shown results, than to try something that hasn't.

coolhull · 17-10-2012 09:32PM

jugger0 wrote: »

Who cares about prisoners, put them in a cell with some hay, feed them a bowl of porridge everyday, nothing else... no visits no recreational time, make prison hell so nobody wants to go there. If they re-offend hang them.

So do you reckon that's what should have happened to the Birmingham 6, Guildford 4, Annie Maguire, Nicky Kelly and countless others who served time in prison for crimes they did'nt commit? Are you related to King Herod?

Gee Bag · 17-10-2012 09:38PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Is that there's many cultural and social issues at play in Scandinavian countries. You can't just say, "Hey let's do what Sweden does, that'll work". Or the dreaded "Hey, we have oil. We're exactly like Norway".

Thats a fair point TBH. Not everything they do is perfect and there are indeed significant social and cultural differences between us and them.

That said, I do think we need to do a lot to reform our juvenile detention system. Had a quick read of that report and it is pretty dire.

Turkey is a fairly good example of a country with a justified reputation for having appalling prisons that has made serious efforts to reform its Juvenile justice system in the recent past with pretty impressive results.
http://www.unicef.org/ceecis/UNICEF_JJTurkey08.pdf

I'd reckon that Scotland is the country we are probably most similar to culturally and socially. They have an excellent juvenile system compared to England/Wales or Ireland.

billybudd · 17-10-2012 10:47PM

They wont invest in these mostly troubled youngsters because they have no hope for them and they know they will reoffend and be back in SPI or mountjoy or one of the other jails on a continuous basis.

Its a backward mentality and one that has been shown up countless times here, in the UK and the states.

But the government dont give a **** for one reason: no one else does.

Just another scum bag, no point looking under the surface :rolleyes:

davet82 · 17-10-2012 11:22PM

Nodin wrote: »

I think it's a better bet to try something that has shown results, than to try something that hasn't.

I agree the irish system clearly isn't working so why not try something new

hatrickpatrick · 17-10-2012 11:26PM

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I don't see the problem honestly. If they manage to get themselves thrown in there for being little feckers, I don't care.
It's not like you'll go there for accidentally kicking a ball through a window.
Only person I knew to be in there was one lad for breaking into a few houses; judge told him if he saw him again (he was previously done for nice things like stealing cars and being out of it on coke/dealing it) he'd be going there. Fair enough the judge stuck to his word.
Came outta there he did and was still the same and said he had a great time in there.

To deny that there are absolutely retarded reasons youths get sent to prison, such as smoking a bit of dope for example, seems woefully ignorant to me.

hatrickpatrick · 17-10-2012 11:31PM

Greenmachine wrote: »

I don't see what the racket is with a 17 year old being in the same prision as a 21. What a pile of nonsense. Denied visits, so what. Actions have consequence, If a young child misbehaves you put them on a naughty step. A older child you might ground them for a week, not let them see their friend. Can't see anyone being appalled by that. Why the fuss over the little toe rag. Sure everything is someone else fault but theirs. "Guards are scum" etc. They just seem to perceive every slight, as an attack, on their precious rights.

Keep them in pat's, give them access to shrinks, and smash their deluded sense of victimization.

Jesus Christ are you actually serious, being totally isolated from family is no big deal?
Boards depresses the living sh!t out of me sometimes. You're making the entirely incorrect assumption that every minor who gets sent to detention has committed a violent crime, and without provocation. You talk as if miscarriages of justice don't happen in this country and as if we don't have a whole crapload of ridiculous laws which shouldn't even exist at all. Technically speaking a young person can be sent to prison for something as silly as having a can in public, possessing a few roman candles for a halloween party or having sex with his (also underage) girlfriend.

People like you are the same kind of people who would probably have advocated the death penalty for people like the Guilford Four and accepted the assertions of guilt from the establishment without question. It makes me sick. :mad:

greecy_joe · 18-10-2012 12:20AM

davet82 wrote: »

I agree the irish system clearly isn't working so why not try something new

the way the goverment looks at theese things is

if a lid can be kept on crime so that broadly speaking , its not intruding on the average citizen - voter , they wont bother spending any more on it , its irrelevant if a certain number of people ( who migh otherwise with a bit of help make solid citizens ) end up falling through the cracks , thats not to say you simply let people go when they commit serious crime but its naive to think the goverment are up at night wondering how to eradicate crime completley

its the same principal which applies to opressing people in various parts of the world in order to maintain a steady - cheap supply of fuel to the wealthy west , only a tiny number of tree hugging hippys give a crap about nigerians or iraqis being marginalised by shell or halliburton

marcsignal · 18-10-2012 02:28AM

davet82 wrote: »

I agree the irish system clearly isn't working so why not try something new

I agree too, there is a need for change. I have to say I have little time for them, but treating them like animals is not the way forward. So how about a system not unlike this ? The re-offending rate is only 3%.

Ok, the obvious considerations apply, these youngsters are not soldiers, for one, but I still don’t see why it’s not possible. There would of course be some changes to adapt the model for civil law. It’s not a concentration camp, there are services provided for those with drug issues and mental problems, but there are very strict rules regarding general behavior, responsibilities, visitors behavior, and prohibited articles.

If you break the rules you will be punished, end of story.

If many of these young offenders feel they are lacking direction ? then a prison system like this will be, imo, where they have a better chance of finding it.

Let’s not f*ck about here, these lads are 16+, they’re not children. If they’re capable of beating the shit out of a pensioner and stealing her money, they are not children, imo. So they don’t need hugs. In many cases, I’d guess, they just need a good boot up the hole and learn themselves some self respect. They have no hope of ever having it for anyone else until they do.

jugger0 · 18-10-2012 05:02AM

Nodin wrote: »

Funny, the approach you outlined seemed rather technology free. You might explain what you mean there.

America is harder, yet even more violent.

As in the technology used in convicting people, rarely you'll get an innocent person in jail, also television and the internet could be used to show people what to expect should they commit crimes, 24 hours 7 days a week in the same small room with no contact from anyone...

Americas prisons are a joke, drugs and gangs are rife, executions are very rare.

Nodin · 18-10-2012 06:05AM

jugger0 wrote: »

As in the technology used in convicting people, rarely you'll get an innocent person in jail, also television and the internet could be used to show people what to expect should they commit crimes, 24 hours 7 days a week in the same small room with no contact from anyone... .

...don't see what that has to do with anything. The fact is that what you describe was the norm in the 19th century. It did no good, and caused a great deal of mental illness. It's been tried and it's failed.

St Patrick’s Institute - damning report by Inspector of Prisons

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