St Patrick’s Institute - damning report by Inspector of Prisons

davet82

A damning report by Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, found offenders at St Patrick’s, aged from 16-21, stripped naked as a punishment, bullied, denied visits, on 23-hour lock-up and restrained in head locks.

A clip from an article from todays indo, sounds more like a snip from an Afgan prison camp. I'm sure the majority of offenders are no doubt little scumbags but I only suspect this type of treatment hardens these fledgling criminals?

Maybe I'm being naive but in the age bracket they cater for in that facility, is there not a window of opportunity to get these young boys back on the straight and narrow rather than create angry monsters that plague our society?


Can we find new ways to punish and rehabilitate these lads?

or

Good enough for them?


http://www.independent.ie/national-news/childrens-watchdog-tells-of-being-mocked-by-prison-officers-at-shamed-st-patricks-institute-3263429.html

General General

We should provide for a single rehabilitation for an offender. Second offence == death or exile.

Whiskeyyyyyyyyyyy!

Nodin

davet82 wrote: »

Maybe I'm being naive but in the age bracket they cater for in that facility, is there not a window of opportunity to get these young boys back on the straight and narrow rather than create angry monsters that plague our society?

It is, however that attitude isn't popular not only with a large element of the public, but in the civil service and political circles. The childrens ombudsman was on this morning talking about the sneering and condascension she had to put up with when she raised the matter, and how certain parties went before the UN and stated that many of the matters raised in the report today didn't occur.

Death and Taxes

Regrettabley, the general public, previous ministers, civil servants appear to hold the view that once a person is imprisoned they are no longer entitled to protection from the law, despite the law having sent them there.
No doubt this debate with sink into a frenzy of hang em/flog em/they're all scumbags anyway comments.

saiint

knew a person years ago that went to their
was only 17
he went in a scumbag
came out even worse although he does have a nice beard

Red_Wake

We need a more ThunderDome-esque justice system.

Duckworth_Luas

Red_Wake wrote: »

We need a more ThunderDome-esque justice system.

The Jews would be f*cked! :eek:

Plazaman

WileyCoyote wrote: »

Regrettabley, the general public, previous ministers, civil servants appear to hold the view that once a person is imprisoned they are no longer entitled to protection from the law, despite the law having sent them there.
No doubt this debate with sink into a frenzy of hang em/flog em/they're all scumbags anyway comments.

Angels the lot of them? On the other hand too many of those prison officers watching Sleepers?.

There's no such thing a rehabilitation in Irish Prisons really? Is there?

admiralofthefleet

i know of a young lad from ranelagh on dublins southside that went in troubled but came out a physco

It a mark of our humanity NOT to lower our standards of care/justice no matter how much of scumbag the person is. That dose not mean it easy to do nor dose it mean that the scumbag is absolved of all responsibility for the way they behave. What it mean essentially is I WILL not lower myself to your standers of behaviour.

Violence begets violence and respect begets respect.

Kidchameleon

admiralofthefleet wrote: »

i know of a young lad from ranelagh on dublins southside that went in troubled but came out a physco

I know a man from England who went up a hill and came down a mountain

Nodin

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The Jews would be f*cked! :eek:

What?

Tombi!

I don't see the problem honestly. If they manage to get themselves thrown in there for being little feckers, I don't care.
It's not like you'll go there for accidentally kicking a ball through a window.
Only person I knew to be in there was one lad for breaking into a few houses; judge told him if he saw him again (he was previously done for nice things like stealing cars and being out of it on coke/dealing it) he'd be going there. Fair enough the judge stuck to his word.
Came outta there he did and was still the same and said he had a great time in there.

Nodin

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

I don't see the problem honestly. .....

Countries that deal with youth offenders in a more comprehensive and less brutal way have lower rates of re-offence and lower crime rates. Do you see the problem now?

Conall Cernach

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

The Jews would be f*cked! :eek:

Do they not like whistles or something?

Tombi!

Nodin wrote: »

Countries that deal with youth offenders in a more comprehensive and less brutal way have lower rates of re-offence and lower crime rates. Do you see the problem now?

Nope, I don't. Considering what it takes (or from the people I know that have been hauled up in court many times for all sorts) to get in there, I don't see a problem.
I see a problem with the justice system. But like I said, my only knowledge is based on my own experiences. If you're being locked up for doing something most would consider a minor crime, it's a problem to me then.

Nodin

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

Nope, I don't. Considering what it takes (or from the people I know that have been hauled up in court many times for all sorts) to get in there, I don't see a problem.
I see a problem with the justice system. But like I said, my only knowledge is based on my own experiences. If you're being locked up for doing something most would consider a minor crime, it's a problem to me then.

So you don't have a problem with a system that does nothing to lower crime rates and may actually produce hardened criminals? It doesn't strike you as perhaps a good idea to lower crime?

syklops

A damning report by Inspector of Prisons, Judge Michael Reilly, found offenders at St Patrick’s, aged from 16-21, stripped naked as a punishment, bullied, denied visits, on 23-hour lock-up and restrained in head locks.

Reports like this lack context. "Denied visits". Are visits not a privilege? If so, and someone breaks the rules do they not lose their privileges? "restrained in head locks" Again, knowing the context would be nice, but if someone needs to be restrained physically to prevent them hurting themselves or someone else then, maybe a head lock was the best thing to do in that situation.

Tombi!

Nodin wrote: »

So you don't have a problem with a system that does nothing to lower crime rates and may actually produce hardened criminals? It doesn't strike you as perhaps a good idea to lower crime?

That's not what I meant at all.
The justice system is a mess and I imagine most people would agree with that.
But as far as I knew, it takes a lot to get locked up as a kid or at least that's what I understand of it anyway. So unless you're just thrown in there for the heck of it, I don't care.

I could be very wrong and I do still think in some cases, it is "unfair" to be locked up but like I said, the people I know that steal cars, sell coke, etc never got thrown in there but the one lad and he really does fit the definition of a scumbag. And honestly, I don't give a damn about scumbags who realize they can do what they want because the justice system is so protective of them.

Yes obviously it would be lovely to lower crime rates but places like Pats are on the lower end of the totem pole; they're still going to be scumbags.

GalwayGuy2

and how certain parties went before the UN and stated that many of the matters raised in the report today didn't occur.

Just to say my short opinion, I think our prison systems are a joke. We send people in to a place rife with drugs and let them fall into groups and gain a them (Guards=society) and Us mentality, and treat them like crap. And we're all suprised when they come out worse.
(thank god bad grammer isn't a crime).

But, if it was politicians of the state and not individual parties, that went before the UN, I sincerely doubt our politicians would have the balls to lie to the UN with the current climate.

Reports like this lack context. "Denied visits". Are visits not a privilege? If so, and someone breaks the rules do they not lose their privileges? "restrained in head locks" Again, knowing the context would be nice, but if someone needs to be restrained physically to prevent them hurting themselves or someone else then, maybe a head lock was the best thing to do in that situation.

Good point. Although, eh, I imagined the head-locks as medieval wooden block yokes...woops. And what's the context of stripping naked? Did something go missing, syringe from medical wing, or was it just to be pricks.

WoollyRedHat

Nodin wrote: »

It is, however that attitude isn't popular not only with a large element of the public, but in the civil service and political circles. The childrens ombudsman was on this morning talking about the sneering and condascension she had to put up with when she raised the matter, and how certain parties went before the UN and stated that many of the matters raised in the report today didn't occur.

I wish we could just get rid of ombudsman in this country and be done with it. Because the politicians clearly do not assert any power, nor value into their undertakings, and you wonder what's the point in employing a person to carry out a report, only to nonsense it at best, and point out ignore it at worst.

As if politicians would have a ****ing clue what really goes on. They live in a bubble. Arseholes.

Boombastic

***1st in the queue for the '**** the victims of my crimes, my human rights have been abused' payout

Nodin

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

That's not what I meant at all.
The justice system is a mess and I imagine most (....)still going to be scumbags.

I never said that people shouldn't be locked up. What I stated was that it would be perhaps a better idea if those who were locked up were rehabilitated, thus lowering crime rates and reoffending rates.

Nodin

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Just to say my short opinion, I think our prison systems are a joke. We send people in to a place rife with drugs and let them fall into groups and gain a them (Guards=society) and Us mentality, and treat them like crap. And we're all suprised when they come out worse.
(thank god bad grammer isn't a crime).

But, if it was politicians of the state and not individual parties, that went before the UN, I sincerely doubt our politicians would have the balls to lie to the UN with the current climate.

It was the radio this morning she was on. Emily Logan. Secretrary General of the Department of Justice is one of the ones named.

http://www.rte.ie/news/morningireland/

cursai

How was this report carried out. Interviews with the prisoners, who naturally will lie and try to get their jailers into trouble.
Or was it eye witness reports from outside agencies or persons.

I have serious doubts about the credibility of this report. Actually I know for a fact its rubbish.

charlemont

I was there twice but not long enough to really know the ins and outs of the place, Any prison officer I meet there was sound.

I listened to the radio interview this morning and that woman needs to get a grip, Where else are they going to put the offenders ? Does she want them all to be in a holiday resort ? They wouldn't be inside if they didn't rob or annoy people on the outside.

Gee Bag

cursai wrote: »

How was this report carried out. Interviews with the prisoners, who naturally will lie and try to get their jailers into trouble.
Or was it eye witness reports from outside agencies or persons.

I have serious doubts about the credibility of this report. Actually I know for a fact its rubbish.

I trust you have a verifiable source for this statement. Would you care to share it with us?

charlemont

cursai wrote: »

How was this report carried out. Interviews with the prisoners, who naturally will lie and try to get their jailers into trouble.
Or was it eye witness reports from outside agencies or persons.

I have serious doubts about the credibility of this report. Actually I know for a fact its rubbish.

Are you saying all prisoners are liars ??

withless

Most of these poor unfortunate teenagers probably only ended up in there because they stole some cornflakes to feed their kids.

The government, the judicial system, the HSE and the media need to cop themselves on and listen to what's happing to the ordinary Joe Soap on the street.

Nodin

cursai wrote: »

How was this report carried out. Interviews with the prisoners, who naturally will lie and try to get their jailers into trouble.
Or was it eye witness reports from outside agencies or persons.

I have serious doubts about the credibility of this report. Actually I know for a fact its rubbish.

How - your crystal ball? It was recommended the place be shut down in the 1980's, and its clear not much has changed since.

charlemont wrote:

Are you saying all prisoners are liars ?? .

All prisoners are liars, the judges investigation is shite (even though they haven't read it) and bring back hanging.

jugger0

Who cares about prisoners, put them in a cell with some hay, feed them a bowl of porridge everyday, nothing else... no visits no recreational time, make prison hell so nobody wants to go there. If they re-offend hang them.

Nodin

jugger0 wrote: »

Who cares about prisoners, put them in a cell with some hay, feed them a bowl of porridge everyday, nothing else... no visits no recreational time, make prison hell so nobody wants to go there. If they re-offend hang them.

....that was the situation for hundreds of years. Not only that, you were charged for the porridge. It didn't work.

jugger0

Nodin wrote: »

....that was the situation for hundreds of years. Not only that, you were charged for the porridge. It didn't work.

It could work better now with today's technology, and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

Nodin

jugger0 wrote: »

It could work better now with today's technology, .

Funny, the approach you outlined seemed rather technology free. You might explain what you mean there.

jugger0 wrote: »

and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

America is harder, yet even more violent.

Pablo Rubio

So Minister Shatter plans to close St. Patrick's Institution by 2014. Where does he plan to put these Guys who stab people in the head and murder them , shoot young girls in the face and murder them, break into pensioners homes and scald them, mug foreign vistors and blind them , and ram Garda cars in stillorgan and kill the 2 officers,kill shopkeepers in Arklow and sell drugs to other juveniles.........
Let them back out into the community and see what they do and then stick them all back in prison in a knee jerk reaction again when they kill more gardai and pensioners and shopkeepers and public sentiment demands it.

Too many do gooders around at the moment I say

Gee Bag

Pablo Rubio wrote: »

So Minister Shatter plans to close St. Patrick's Institution by 2014. Where does he plan to put these Guys who stab people in the head and murder them , shoot young girls in the face and murder them, break into pensioners homes and scald them, mug foreign vistors and blind them , and ram Garda cars in stillorgan and kill the 2 officers,kill shopkeepers in Arklow and sell drugs to other juveniles.........
Let them back out into the community and see what they do and then stick them all back in prison in a knee jerk reaction again when they kill more gardai and pensioners and shopkeepers and public sentiment demands it.

Too many do gooders around at the moment I say

I think the plan is to simply build a prison thats fit for purpose.

Greenmachine

I don't see what the racket is with a 17 year old being in the same prision as a 21. What a pile of nonsense. Denied visits, so what. Actions have consequence, If a young child misbehaves you put them on a naughty step. A older child you might ground them for a week, not let them see their friend. Can't see anyone being appalled by that. Why the fuss over the little toe rag. Sure everything is someone else fault but theirs. "Guards are scum" etc. They just seem to perceive every slight, as an attack, on their precious rights.

Keep them in pat's, give them access to shrinks, and smash their deluded sense of victimization.

Nodin

Greenmachine wrote: »

I don't see (.....)and smash the deluded sense of victimisation.

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

mattjack

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

Read the report, how dare you suggest reading 'the report' ? you and I both know that when you read reports you might get a sense of perspective or even an idea what's going, thus deflating any sense of reason or purpose when posting in AH.

How are ya Mr Nodin ?

Nodin

mattjack wrote: »

Read the report, how dare you suggest reading 'the report' ? you and I both know that when you read reports you might get a sense of perspective or even an idea what's going, thus deflating any sense of reason or purpose when posting in AH.

How are ya Mr Nodin ?

I'm the same oul bollix I always was, ty for askin.

GalwayGuy2

It could work better now with today's technology, and i reckon Ireland is more violent now then ever while being softer on criminals. People need to fear the consequences of committing a crime.

I don 't believe in the whole porridge or confinement bordering on depravity, but there should be instant reprisals for breaking a law. I think the law should work in a way that if you are overpaid in some governmental way (grant, whatever) you'll give the surplus back as you know you'll have to give it back later. If that makes any sense?

Greenmachine

Don't care what the recommendations say. You could ask me what make of car to buy. And year after year I tell you the same thing. "Buy a Honda..." When you eventually buy something you buy a smart car. Now it doesn't mean just because I recommended year after year you buy a honda, that I was right.

Nodin wrote: »

You didn't read the report then, I take it. Or note that this is the third over a 25 year period to recommend action be taken about the place.

Nodin

Greenmachine wrote: »

Don't care what the recommendations say. ..............

Don't care about the recommendations, don't care about why they criticised what they did, don't give a shit. The same oul rabble rabble mentality that condemns us to a viscous cycle that is in fact breakable.

Greenmachine

Nodin wrote: »

Don't care about the recommendations, don't care about why they criticised what they did, don't give a shit. The same oul rabble rabble mentality that condemns us to a viscous cycle that is in fact breakable.

So how do you recommend we change things. Forget about the report. What is your solution.

Nodin

Greenmachine wrote: »

So how do you recommend we change things. Forget about the report. What is your solution.

A system based on rehabilitation and prison, like the scandanavians have. It's been shown to work.

Greenmachine

Rehabilitation is only part of the equation would love to see criminals go clean. Don't like hearing about the victims of crime. One thing since you brought it up that I think is appallingly wrong is the shortness of sentences in the Scandanavian, especially for serious crimes, like murder. Youth could get a 3 year sentence for murder. If they don't re-offend, we have have the desired outcome. There is a serious lack of justice for the victims in such situation. These things to be honest should be sorted before these people become a menace. Court appointed psych session. If they don't attend, their parents receive no child benefit for them. If that does not get them inline, time for a few weeks in a cell.

GalwayGuy2

A system based on rehabilitation and prison, like the scandanavians have. It's been shown to work.

Hmm, tbf we're not Scandinavian.

Nodin

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Hmm, tbf we're not Scandinavian.

And the point of this observation...?

withless

What's the tax on that?

GalwayGuy2

And the point of this observation...?

Is that there's many cultural and social issues at play in Scandinavian countries. You can't just say, "Hey let's do what Sweden does, that'll work". Or the dreaded "Hey, we have oil. We're exactly like Norway".

Nodin

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Is that there's many cultural and social issues at play in Scandinavian countries. You can't just say, "Hey let's do what Sweden does, that'll work". Or the dreaded "Hey, we have oil. We're exactly like Norway".

I think it's a better bet to try something that has shown results, than to try something that hasn't.