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What is rape?

245

Comments

  • #32
    xxmeabhxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 96 ✭✭xxmeabhxx


    I don't think consent has to be verbal. If a woman is doesn't say anything to suggest she doesn't want to have sex and reacts favourably to advances then that is not rape. In the case of drunken sex, if they're both as drunk as each other, then no rape has taken place, if one is less drunk and the other is passed out or close to it, then that's rape.


  • #33
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    up for anything wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    The man would also be drunk in this scenario. I don't believe the man should be made to bear full responsibility for his drunken actions if a woman is not.

    How is a court supposed to assess levels of drunkenness?
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    This is what I find problematic. Surely there is a responsibility to indicate you don't want to continue? In my scenario, two people are engaging in sexual behaviour and the man progresses it but the woman says nothing to stop him and doesn't seem to react unfavourably. How is he to know she doesn't want to??

    Perhaps the fact that he has to hold a knife at her throat?

    In many rapes the person being raped doesn't indicate unwillingness or say an outright no because they are in fear of the rapist and think that by staying quiet they have a better chance of living after the rape. Does that mean that they haven't been raped because they didn't say either verbally or physically? I don't think so.

    How then can a court assess the woman is too drunk to consent but the man isn't?

    Sorry but in my very SPECIFIC scenario I said that the woman is happily engaging in sexual behaviour with the man and he progresses it. There is no knife and no physical coercion. He simply starts to initiate penetrative sex. The woman thus far has been happily engaging. She does not say no and doesn't struggle but after claims rape. THIS is what I am struggling.to comprehend, not a situation that is threatening.


  • #34
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,029 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    If you're going to engage in sexual acts with another person then just be sure that they are sure they want to too; if there is any doubt whatsoever then don't do it.

    This is not complicated stuff.


  • #35
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Apologies, what am I ignoring? I'm not sure what you're referring to.

    The fact that if a woman is too drunk to consent, and a man goes ahead it's rape.

    I replied to this already. Perhaps you didn't read it? I said if a man is as equally drunk as a woman and they have sex happily then how has a woman been raped? How can a man be held accountable for his actions if the woman isn't?


  • #36
    3ndahalfof6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    Stheno wrote: »
    The fact that if a woman is too drunk to consent, and a man goes ahead it's rape.

    While I agree with your post, if they are both pissed it might be the end result of the conversation they were having most of the night,

    pissed people are pissed no rational, they only remember the good parts of the conversation.


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  • #37
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    I replied to this already. Perhaps you didn't read it? I said if a man is as equally drunk as a woman and they have sex happily then how has a woman been raped? How can a man be held accountable for his actions if the woman isn't?

    You didn't, my scenario is that the woman is too drunk to consent, and the man takes no notice?


  • #38
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Tayla wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »

    Sorry but in my very SPECIFIC scenario I said that the woman is happily engaging in sexual behaviour with the man and he progresses it. There is no knife and no physical coercion. He simply starts to initiate penetrative sex. The woman thus far has been happily engaging. She does not say no and doesn't struggle but after claims rape. THIS is what I am struggling.to comprehend, not a situation that is threatening.

    Well in this specific situation does she believe she was raped or is she just making it up?

    Yeah she believes so. This is what I find problematic because she never communicated that sex wasn't wanted and he believed she did want it.


  • #39
    GalwayGuy2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭GalwayGuy2


    In many rapes the person being raped doesn't indicate unwillingness or say an outright no because they are in fear of the rapist and think that by staying quiet they have a better chance of living after the rape. Does that mean that they haven't been raped because they didn't say either verbally or physically? I don't think so.

    The person you're replying to is more talking about a woman not saying she does not want to have sex because she is physically intimidated by the male.


  • #40
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    ...


  • #41
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    I replied to this already. Perhaps you didn't read it? I said if a man is as equally drunk as a woman and they have sex happily then how has a woman been raped? How can a man be held accountable for his actions if the woman isn't?

    You didn't, my scenario is that the woman is too drunk to consent, and the man takes no notice?

    Well if the man knows she doesn't want sex or is too drunk to consent and isn't too drunk himself then yes that is rape, of course.

    What I referred to in the OP though is the belief that some people hold that a man has raped a woman if they are both drunk even if they both consent at the time. Their argument is that the woman is too drunk to consent however the man is also in the same state. How can he be held accountable when she is not?


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  • #42
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Well if the man knows she doesn't want sex or is.too,drunk to consent and isn't too drunk himself then yes that is rape, of course.

    What I referred to in the OP though is the belief that some people hold that a man has raped a woman if they are both drunk even if they both consent at the time. Their argument is that the woman is too drunk to consent however the man is also in the same state. How can he be held accountable when she is not?

    In fairness most men in that state of drunkeness wouldn't be able to get it up?


  • #43
    up for anything
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,791 ✭✭✭up for anything


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    How then can a court assess the woman is too drunk to consent but the man isn't?

    Sorry but in my very SPECIFIC scenario I said that the woman is happily engaging in sexual behaviour with the man and he progresses it. There is no knife and no physical coercion. He simply starts to initiate penetrative sex. The woman thus far has been happily engaging. She does not say no and doesn't struggle but after claims rape. THIS is what I am struggling.to comprehend, not a situation that is threatening.

    To answer that first question, perhaps they rely on witness statements - if the woman is practically comatose but the man is just very drunk but able to support her as they leave wherever they have been for wherever the sex is going to take place that could be an assessment of their levels of drunkenness. I'm sure every case is different.

    As to the second SPECIFIC scenario, how many rapes are reported to have taken place in this way and how many actually get prosecuted to a successful conclusion for you to ask this question? In the real world I would imagine that there are few like this but not many, because to cry rape like that takes a very nasty person. How many ordinary people do you think would put themselves through the ordeal of a rape exam and trial just because they regretted a drunken act of sex?


  • #44
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    This is what I find problematic. Surely there is a responsibility to indicate you don't want to continue? In my scenario, two people are engaging in sexual behaviour and the man progresses it but the woman says nothing to stop him and doesn't seem to react unfavourably. How is he to know she doesn't want to??

    Well. Let me give a scenario.

    A young woman is intimidated by what a man says. He has sex with her.

    She let him do it for fear of her life, but didn't tell him "I'm worried you might beat or kill me if I refuse."

    What was the case in this scenario, rape or not? Who was responsible for obtaining/giving consent?

    Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated.

    Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?


  • #45
    stop animal cruelty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭stop animal cruelty


    Stheno wrote: »
    and one the OP seems to be ignoring

    l don't have the need & l don't have to comment for every post l read thank you very much!


  • #46
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated and he basically kidnapped her.

    Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

    Would it really be that difficult for the boy to ask if the girl would like to have sex?


  • #47
    ghostchant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,750 ✭✭✭ghostchant


    Stheno wrote: »
    In fairness most men in that state of drunkeness wouldn't be able to get it up?

    You make it sound like 'getting it up' is an entirely voluntary process. I certainly wouldn't consider it any sort of proof that the guy wasn't that drunk. And even if he couldn't and they just decided to use their hands, that would still fall under the banner of rape if we ignore the mutual intoxication but still focus on the lack of consent.


  • #48
    TheBoss!
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 76 ✭✭TheBoss!


    Stheno wrote: »
    In fairness most men in that state of drunkeness wouldn't be able to get it up?

    Might be true of some men but some have no trouble in that regard, as was clearly the case with the recent English woman who ended up getting jailed for lying about being raped:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056758411


  • #49
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    stop animal cruelty wrote: »
    l don't have the need & l don't have to comment for every post l read thank you very much!

    Wasn't replying to you there?
    ghostchant wrote: »
    You make it sound like 'getting it up' is an entirely voluntary process. I certainly wouldn't consider it any sort of proof that the guy wasn't that drunk. And even if he couldn't and they just decided to use their hands, that would still fall under the banner of rape if we ignore the mutual intoxication but still focus on the lack of consent.

    True I was being limited thinking of penetration
    TheBoss! wrote: »
    Might be true of some men but some have no trouble, as was the case with the recent English woman, who was jailed for lying about being raped:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=80902783

    Hard to quantify as an average :)

    I can't see most men wanting to go ahead and have sex with someone who is comatose from drink though.

    If there is anything that boils my blood it's false rape allegations, but there is a line that should not be crossed.

    Be sure you both want to and go ahead.


  • #50
    Sofiztikated
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,995 ✭✭✭Sofiztikated


    I only got through page one of the replies, but women are quite capable of rape, as well.

    It's not an act that is only limited to the male of the species.


  • #51
    say_who_now?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 925 ✭✭✭say_who_now?


    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »

    Another thread on boards had me thinking about drunken sex and rape too. A significant number of people believed that when a man and a woman have drunken sex, the man has raped the woman because she was unable to consent. I found this line of thinking appalling.

    Why? Do you think it's ok for a guy who is drunk to go ahead and have sex with a drunk woman who may not be aware of what is going on?


    I remember the thread the OP is talking about, and it was nothing even like a "significant" number, more like five out of 80 or so contributors to the thread. That's why I wasn't going to bother contributing to this one as I can see it already taking the same circular argument nit picking direction the last one did.


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  • #52
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    up for anything wrote: »

    To answer that first question, perhaps they rely on witness statements - if the woman is practically comatose but the man is just very drunk but able to support her as they leave wherever they have been for wherever the sex is going to take place that could be an assessment of their levels of drunkenness. I'm sure every case is different.

    As to the second SPECIFIC scenario, how many rapes are reported to have taken place in this way and how many actually get prosecuted to a successful conclusion for you to ask this question? In the real world I would imagine that there are few like this but not many, because to cry rape like that takes a very nasty person. How many ordinary people do you think would put themselves through the ordeal of a rape exam and trial just because they regretted a drunken act of sex?

    Yes well obviously if it can be shown the man is aware of what is happening and the woman isn't then that is rape. However a lot of people on a specific thread expressed the opinion that even if the man and woman are equally drunk, the responsibility lies only with the man.

    I hope not many. I started this thread because I was surprised to read how many people held this viewpoint on the Reddit thread.

    Unfortunately it does sometimes happen though. There was a case in the UK recently where a woman had sex with three men and claimed rape. It was proven afterwards that she lied and had fully consented but just cried rape because she was embarrassed. It is cases like this that make it harder for real victims to be taken seriously.

    In the case of the Reddit thread, many anonymous females stated they had been raped and described scenarios very similar to the one I did. Personally I find it difficult to reconcile with.


  • #53
    stop animal cruelty
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,012 ✭✭✭stop animal cruelty


    Stheno wrote: »
    Wasn't replying to you there?



    True I was being limited thinking of penetration



    Hard to quantify as an average :)

    I can't see most men wanting to go ahead and have sex with someone who is comatose from drink though.

    If there is anything that boils my blood it's false rape allegations, but there is a line that should not be crossed.

    Be sure you both want to and go ahead.

    you quoted my comment.......:confused:


  • #54
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Yes I believe that is rape, absolutely. She was intimidated and he basically kidnapped her.

    Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

    Would it really be that difficult for the boy to ask if the girl would like to have sex?

    Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.


  • #55
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    I made a mistake with quotes is all :)


  • #56
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,685 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.

    What someone feels about it killing the moment is very different from someone feeling they have been raped not having been asked if they want to have sex.


  • #57
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    say_who_now? wrote: »
    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »

    Another thread on boards had me thinking about drunken sex and rape too. A significant number of people believed that when a man and a woman have drunken sex, the man has raped the woman because she was unable to consent. I found this line of thinking appalling.

    Why? Do you think it's ok for a guy who is drunk to go ahead and have sex with a drunk woman who may not be aware of what is going on?


    I remember the thread the OP is talking about, and it was nothing even like a "significant" number, more like five out of 80 or so contributors to the thread. That's why I wasn't going to bother contributing to this one as I can see it already taking the same circular argument nit picking direction the last one did.

    Apologies, I meant to say both the boards thread and the Reddit thread. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.


  • #58
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Sofiztikated wrote: »
    I only got through page one of the replies, but women are quite capable of rape, as well.

    It's not an act that is only limited to the male of the species.

    Yes absolutely. I only spoke in terms of female rape as the Reddit and boards threads were concerned with that.


  • #59
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Maybe I am not being clear but I am talking about a very specific situation. A girl and a boy are kissing, touching, removing clothes and engaging in oral sex. This is all consensual. She is happy to do this and so is he. He believes sex is the next step and initiates penetration. He has done nothing to intimidate her or make her feel like she has no choice. They are kissing and touching when penetration occurs. At this point the girl does nothing and says nothing. The boy thinks she likes it. Has she been raped?

    I really feel that in this case the onus is on the girl to indicate that she is uncomfortable with what is going on, to be honest. But still, if the fella senses that she is suddenly reluctant then he should stop and confirm with her that it's ok to continue.

    The onus is on the girl, though. She really needs to make her wishes known if she is adamant that she does not want it to happen and is capable of indicating such. We can't leave the issue of consent up to the fella's ESP if he's had no real negative feedback.


  • #60
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Stheno wrote: »
    ViveLaVie wrote: »
    Perhaps not but some feel it kills the mood and most people don't do so. I feel like consent is implied in this scenario.

    What someone feels about it killing the moment is very different from someone feeling they have been raped not having been asked if they want to have sex.

    Yes but is consent not implied?


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  • #61
    ViveLaVie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 984 ✭✭✭ViveLaVie


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    I really feel that in this case the onus is on the girl to indicate that she is uncomfortable with what is going on, to be honest. But still, if the fella senses that she is suddenly reluctant then he should stop and confirm with her that it's ok to continue.

    The onus is on the girl, though. She really needs to make her wishes known if she is adamant that she does not want it to happen and is capable of indicating such. We can't leave the issue of consent up to the fella's ESP if he's had no real negative feedback.

    THIS. I agree and I assumed this was a general viewpoint but the Reddit thread convinced me otherwise. A lot of women on that thread disagreed. It really shocked me.


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