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Gardi to tackle cycle menaces

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Comments

  • #362
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    why, though? why should a cyclist face the same penalty as a car driver for breaking a red light, when a car breaking a light is many times more dangerous than a cyclist doing it?
    is it not fair to suggest that the penalty is commensurate with the danger of the manouevre?

    edit: i read your post first as 'as responsible', which would imply a similar level of punishment; re-reading, you may not have been implying that.

    Well if a cyclist breaks a red light & gets hit by a car...is that not classed as dangerous?

    Cyclists can & do also cause severe enough injury to people especially the elderly if they break lights. Yes drivers also do the same, no denying that.

    I've no input on the punishment for doing so, but rules are rules & are there for everyone, including cyclists. The fact is, the standard of road use, not just driving, is appalling in Ireland.

    I was stopped at a junction yesterday, & a cyclist came up behind my car, overtook me on the right, & proceeded to turn right at the junction, entering the other side of the junction travelling down the road in the wrong side of the road. That kind of nonsense should be punished, no matter what method of transport used.


  • #363
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    EnterNow wrote: »
    About time the cyclists are made responsible as any other road user for disregarding rules.

    By that you mean the its about time the law was enforced.


  • #364
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    By that you mean the its about time the law was enforced.

    Exactly


  • #365
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    and jaywalking? you'd be happy to be fined for jaywalking?

    What has that got to do with anything? If you want to discuss jaywalking you might be best starting a new thread?


  • #366
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    magicbastarder wrote: »
    why, though? why should a cyclist face the same penalty as a car driver for breaking a red light, when a car breaking a light is many times more dangerous than a cyclist doing it?
    is it not fair to suggest that the penalty is commensurate with the danger of the manouevre?

    edit: i read your post first as 'as responsible', which would imply a similar level of punishment; re-reading, you may not have been implying that.

    Speaking as a keen cyclist, I'd say no - you break the law you pay the penalty, if you don't like it then don't cycle or stick to the rules. Secondly, it should be a fixed penalty and it should be a meaty one (€250) at that.

    There is a tiered element to it already - if I jump a red light on my bike I get fined, if I do it in the car I get fined and get points.

    If the penalty is to be be commensurate with the danger, who decides what's dangerous and what's not? I could jump a light when the danger is minimal but the outcome could be severe, and get a lesser penalty compared to someone who is completely reckless but hurts no one.


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  • #367
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    EnterNow wrote: »
    ...I was stopped at a junction yesterday, & a cyclist came up behind my car, overtook me on the right, & proceeded to turn right at the junction, entering the other side of the junction travelling down the road in the wrong side of the road. That kind of nonsense should be punished, no matter what method of transport used.

    For sure. Numerous times a day I see drivers going through the light as it turns red. I also see them queue jumping constantly going up the wrong side of the road, then making a right turn, or even jumping in at the top of a queue. No enforces that either. Blocking yellow boxes etc. 10~15 years a go there was a much higher Garda presence on the streets, and you'd see people pulled over on a regular basis and speed cameras say on the quays a couple of times a month.

    These days I see almost no enforcement, for months at a time. Seeing a Garda enforcing the law is a quite rare sight for me.


  • #368
    Slurryface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Slurryface


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Yet another 'this thing happened to me the other day and therefore all cyclists are ****s' post.
    Another " anyone who recounts a negative experience of cyclists ia a liar" retorts!:mad:


  • #369
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    Undercover Elephant wrote: »
    It would be less frustrating if you read it properly.

    Given that:
    - some cyclists are idiots
    - some drivers are idiots
    - most road injuries are caused by drivers
    - most car-bike collisions are caused by drivers
    - very few injuries are caused by cyclists

    (These are not opinions, they are empirical, verifiable facts.)

    ... then, given limited Garda resources, cracking down on bad cycling rather than bad driving is irrational.

    I never said it was AS dangerous, or that it should be cracked down on instead of bad driving. It should be enforced as well, rather than the law just being ignored.

    But it IS dangerous, and all dangerious behaviour on our roads should be cracked down on. Motorists and cyclists alike.


  • #370
    Slurryface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Slurryface


    BostonB wrote: »
    For sure. Numerous times a day I see drivers going through the light as it turns red. I also see them queue jumping constantly going up the wrong side of the road, then making a right turn, or even jumping in at the top of a queue. No enforces that either. Blocking yellow boxes etc. 10~15 years a go there was a much higher Garda presence on the streets, and you'd see people pulled over on a regular basis and speed cameras say on the quays a couple of times a month.

    These days I see almost no enforcement, for months at a time. Seeing a Garda enforcing the law is a quite rare sight for me.
    Then how do you explain the hundreds of thousands of moterists that have penalty points?????
    Oh yea , you can't, can you?
    Perhaps a visit to Specsavers would aid your ability to see!:D


  • #371
    babaracus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 228 ✭✭babaracus


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    I never said it was AS dangerous, or that it should be cracked down on instead of bad driving. It should be enforced as well, rather than the law just being ignored.

    But it IS dangerous, and all dangerious behaviour on our roads should be cracked down on. Motorists and cyclists alike.

    Car drivers kill 250-300 people a year, cyclists kill nobody (but themselves).

    Now if you had limited resources as the Garda Traffic Corps do which sector would you crack down on? Every minute spent dealing with an errant cyclist is a minute less dealing with car drivers who kill people. To satisfy who? Those with a bee in their bonnet about cyclists.


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  • #372
    Undercover Elephant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Undercover Elephant


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    I never said it was AS dangerous, or that it should be cracked down on instead of bad driving. It should be enforced as well, rather than the law just being ignored.

    But it IS dangerous, and all dangerious behaviour on our roads should be cracked down on. Motorists and cyclists alike.

    No one is arguing that the law should not be enforced. The point is that the campaign targets the less dangerous behaviour. This doesn't make sense.

    Suppose I am a Traffic Corps inspector. I have 10 "spare" gardai available today, who I can station anywhere. What should I have them doing?


  • #373
    SerialComplaint
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,644 ✭✭✭SerialComplaint


    frankythefish wrote: »
    i think in truth we should be thankful that these 'innocent' cycling folk are cycling and not driving a vehicle
    Strangely enough, many of them mad cyclists do drive vehicles and do pay 'road' tax.
    cournioni wrote: »
    It is every bit as dangerous when cyclists break red lights and knock pedestrians over! You very rarely see motorists at it
    Bwaaahaahaa, you're joking right? Come with me to any major junction in Dublin, and watch cars fly through amber lights, and 2-3 cars fly through red lights at the end of every cycle. It happens ALL the time. You should see the looks on the faces of the red-light-jumping motorists as I start cycling into their path having got my green light, though.
    Spook_ie wrote: »
    How many get killed/injured/scared by cyclists not yielding to pedestrians, as the figures aren't ( don't seem to be logged anywhere ) available we'll have to go by anecdotal evidence, which seems to point to the fact that cyclists are a load of unruly, law unto themselves thugs that think they are a cut above other road users because " We are cyclists and we matter more than other road users"
    Do you drive with blinkers on? You seem to only see faults relating to one particular group of road users.


  • #374
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Exactly

    I don't have a problem with that. But just to be aware it won't have any significant effect on accidents with cyclists.


  • #375
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    I don't have a problem with that. But just to be aware it won't have any significant effect on accidents with cyclists.

    It might, if it deters some of them from breaking lights, speeding on the footpath, or traveling on the wrong side of the road. Much the same way road laws deter me from breaking the rules.

    Either way, proper law enforcement can't be criticized because 'it won't have an affect'. It's the law, we're all bound by it...even cyclists.


  • #376
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    Undercover Elephant wrote: »
    No one is arguing that the law should not be enforced. The point is that the campaign targets the less dangerous behaviour. This doesn't make sense.

    Suppose I am a Traffic Corps inspector. I have 10 "spare" gardai available today, who I can station anywhere. What should I have them doing?

    You could put them on busy roads where they can stop both motorists and cyclists who are breaking the law? It's not like they're using separate roads :confused:


  • #377
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Slurryface wrote: »
    Then how do you explain the hundreds of thousands of moterists that have penalty points?????
    Oh yea , you can't, can you?
    Perhaps a visit to Specsavers would aid your ability to see!:D

    I'd guess most of them are minor speeding infractions caught by camera's. So I looked it up.
    speeding is the most common road traffic offence in Ireland with almost 180,000 speeding fines issues last year – 43% of the total offences committed by motorists.

    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwkfcwgbau/rss2/


  • #378
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    EnterNow wrote: »
    It might, if it deters some of them from breaking lights, speeding on the footpath, or travelling on the wrong side of the road. Much the same way road laws deter me from breaking the rules.

    Either way, proper law enforcement can't be criticized because 'it won't have an affect'. It's the law, we're all bound by it...even cyclists.

    Its not criticism of enforcement.

    Its the disparate focus on the least cause (if any) of accidents, (to cyclists and pedestrians) rather than the biggest cause of accidents.


  • #379
    Undercover Elephant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Undercover Elephant


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    You could put them on busy roads where they can stop both motorists and cyclists who are breaking the law? It's not like they're using separate roads :confused:

    And, what? Stop each one committing any offence, no matter how trivial? If so, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with this, but it is entirely inconsistent with the message of the latest crackdown.


  • #380
    BostonB
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,053 ✭✭✭✭BostonB


    Its a bit like a crackdown enforcing the law on say 3 white cars, with the statistic saying red cars are more likely to be in an accident.


  • #381
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    That's exactly what I meant. Not to focus on one risk as such, but to enforce the rules for everyone. It might encourage everyone to toe the line a bit more.


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  • #382
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,213 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    EnterNow wrote: »
    Either way, proper law enforcement can't be criticized because 'it won't have an affect'. It's the law, we're all bound by it...even cyclists.
    of *course* ineffectual law enforcement should be subject to critical enquiry.
    if a law, or enforcement of a law, is ineffectual, why should we push garda resources into it?


  • #383
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,213 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    BostonB wrote: »
    What has that got to do with anything? If you want to discuss jaywalking you might be best starting a new thread?
    i brought up jaywalking because people in general do not have an issue with what is an illegal practice on roads. most motorists here would be extremely put out if someone fined them for jaywalking; i was getting back to the 'clamp down on the other sort of road user' attitude which prevails.


  • #384
    Slurryface
    Closed Accounts Posts: 225 ✭✭Slurryface


    BostonB wrote: »
    I'd guess most of them are minor speeding infractions caught by camera's. So I looked it up.



    http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/kfcwkfcwgbau/rss2/
    Thank yopu for DISPROVING your own earlier allegation that there is no Garda enforcement against motorists these days.
    i take it you will now have the decency to withdraw that statement.


  • #385
    Myrddin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 33,733 ✭✭✭✭Myrddin


    BostonB wrote: »
    Its not criticism of enforcement.

    Its the disparate focus on the least cause (if any) of accidents, (to cyclists and pedestrians) rather than the biggest cause of accidents.

    Your implying cyclists don't endanger themselves & in doing so, others. I see recklessness every day from motorists, pedestrians and yes, cyclists too. I'm a motorist, but I'm not closed minded enough to blanket all cyclists as a 'menace'. Of course they're not, a lot of them are well mannered road users who don't take chances. However, like a lot of other motorists I see, a lot of cyclists are reckless beyond belief, casual disregard for rules & other road users, & endanger themselves and others.

    It's there to see every day on the roads. But yes, I agree, cyclists due to the small nature/mass & road presence of a bike isn't going to cause too much damage in an accident. But cars do, which is all the more reason for cyclists to be careful, thats all I'm saying :)
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    of *course* ineffectual law enforcement should be subject to critical enquiry.
    if a law, or enforcement of a law, is ineffectual, why should we push garda resources into it?

    Because if it saves even one life, its a resource worth investing, no?


  • #386
    Undercover Elephant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Undercover Elephant


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    That's exactly what I meant. Not to focus on one risk as such, but to enforce the rules for everyone. It might encourage everyone to toe the line a bit more.

    That's one approach. Another is (2) to try to direct your intervention where it's likely to make the biggest safety impact. A third is (3) to pick a specific issue for a day or two and blitz it unannounced.

    The Gardai would probably claim they are doing (2), but if so, they are doing it wrong. What they are in fact doing in this campaign - if they ever actually get around to doing it - is wrongly identifying cycling as being unreasonably dangerous, wrongly identifying the cause of dangers to cyclists as law-breaking by cyclists, blaming the victims, and ignoring much more significant issues.


  • #387
    Tomk1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Tomk1


    steve9859 wrote: »
    Yet another 'this thing happened to me the other day and therefore all cyclists are ****s' post.

    Reading washiskin's post, I do not interpret your conclusion, my interpretation is that washiskin was more concerned with the future well-being of the cyclist.

    But the point of this thrend is the laws of the road for all vehicles being enforced to all vehicles.

    In order to drive a car you have to know & abide by the rules of the road, proof by having a valid driving-licence.
    No such proof of/or accountability for a cyclist to know the rules of the road, never mind proof of abiding by those rules. Complete ignorrence could be claimed, how can a cyclist be fined for breaking a law if they are not legally required to know that law.

    It's illegal to drive a motor-vehicle without a valid licence/ID on your person, IMO this should apply to all road vehicles inc bicycles, so repeat offenders can be weaned out.

    Maybe one way to reduce the cyclists that spoil the broth & the sale of stolen bikes is a compulsary form of digital ID's like QR-Code (similar implementation to a licence no), a CCTV should be able to pick up a QR-code so no more anonymity to break the law.

    -a Biped


  • #388
    Undercover Elephant
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 465 ✭✭Undercover Elephant


    Tomk1 wrote: »
    No such proof of/or accountability for a cyclist to know the rules of the road, never mind proof of abiding by those rules. Complete ignorrence could be claimed, how can a cyclist be fined for breaking a law if they are not legally required to know that law.

    What are you talking about? Ignorance of the law has been no defence since the time of Strongbow.


  • #389
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    Slurryface wrote: »
    Another " anyone who recounts a negative experience of cyclists ia a liar" retorts!:mad:


    um....where did I call you a liar?


  • #390
    magicbastarder
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 53,213 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    Tomk1 wrote: »
    It's illegal to drive a motor-vehicle without a valid licence/ID on your person, IMO this should apply to all road vehicles inc bicycles, so repeat offenders can be weaned out.

    Maybe one way to reduce the cyclists that spoil the broth & the sale of stolen bikes is a compulsary form of digital ID's like QR-Code (similar implementation to a licence no), a CCTV should be able to pick up a QR-code so no more anonymity to break the law.
    would i have had to apply for a licence to cycle to school when i was 12?


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  • #391
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    Tomk1 wrote: »
    It's illegal to drive a motor-vehicle without a valid licence/ID on your person, IMO this should apply to all road vehicles inc bicycles, so repeat offenders can be weaned out.



    Won't happen. I posted a link yesterday with evidence from a number of countries and cities (including ones with much higher cycling levels that Ireland) that have considered and in some cases tried compulsory insurance and / or licencing schemes. And they have all found that they don't work, are impossible to police and impossible to legislate for. What about kids with bikes....what about those that only use their bike in the park...what about old and second hand bikes. No government will open that can of worms...would cost a fortune! Better off spending the money on building the infrastructure to keep bikes and cars apart in the city.


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