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Atheism/Existence of God Debates (Please Read OP)

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    #4922
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    philologos wrote: »
    I'm not going to go around and around in circles. I've answered your question multiple times.

    Evidentally I am not satisfied with your answers. Challenged on your claim that most most Christians in Ireland are well-educated, you have presented anecdote, a glorified 'because I said so', a Wikipedia link, and a reference to an ongoing willy joke. You have made the assertion, and it falls to you to support it.
    philologos wrote: »
    I don't think there's any fruit in this argument. If you have any objections to the Christian gospel itself, I'm more than happy to address them.

    Ah, but you're a canny one. Could it be that there is indeed fruit, but it might be bitter to the taste?
    philologos wrote: »
    It seems that you've ignored multiple sections in the link I provided, but alas as the philosopher said, it's vanity. I'd rather debate something of substance.

    Your link is an intro and three paragraphs, Philo. It would take a special kind of ineptitude on my part to miss 'multiple sections'. Where does it present evidence that the average Irish church-goer is well-educated?


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    #4923
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    They probably all play a part to some degree in many religious and non-religious people, I still don't see much worth in the info though.
    If I believed something e.g. there is an endless supply of fossil fuels and it was very important to me so much so that I based it for the way I lived my life, and the vast majority of intellectuals rejected these claims I would be very curious as to why.

    I guess the fact you and many other Christians do not care enforces my opinion that you - to a certain extent - live with your head in the sand.

    Religious people tend to avoid things that challenge your cherished believes.


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    #4924
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    marienbad wrote: »
    The point I am making is that the more educated a society becomes the less religious it becomes , and Ireland is a great example.

    Sweden, Finland other good examples. Even in the US go to the bible belt - think about their educational and intellectual standards. Then go to silicon valley and have you'll see differing views.


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    #4925
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    If I believed something e.g. there is an endless supply of fossil fuels and it was very important to me so much so that I based it for the way I lived my life, and the vast majority of intellectuals rejected these claims I would be very curious as to why.

    I guess the fact you and many other Christians do not care enforces my opinion that you - to a certain extent - live with your head in the sand.

    Religious people tend to avoid things that challenge your cherished believes.

    TBH, all I really see in your postings in relation to this is a desire to deride religious belief wrapped up in pseudo intellectual clothing. You are of course free to believe whatever you want in relation to religious people, and tbh, maybe your 'observations' apply to some, a lot, or for all I know even most religious people. Its a rather HUGE banner afterall. However, I find it rather disingenuous that you try disguise your desire to express your contempt with this rather juvenile pseudo intellectualism. Its still of little worth, and comes across, to me anyway, as rather petty. TBH, your posts seem to have descended into bitterness at times, but again thats just my observation of them from the limited perspective of looking at a series of posts. Honest question, but are you angry with religion or religious people? Are you genuinely frustrated at what you perceive as wilful ignorance, because tbh, I can empathise with that. IMO, I'd advise you not to let such frustration cloud your judgement, or indeed make you come to premature judgements.

    In my experience, I've come across the most phoney, self righteous, wilfully ignorant people in the walls of religion. I've also come across the most genuine, honest, loving, intelligent and wise people also. So sweeping generalisations I'd always be weary of.


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    #4926
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Honest question, but are you angry with religion or religious people? Are you genuinely frustrated at what you perceive as wilful ignorance, because tbh, I can empathise with that. IMO, I'd advise you not to let such frustration cloud your judgement, or indeed make you come to premature judgements.
    I think religion - at its worst - is a curse on humanity. It surpresses people's intellectual abilities and makes all sorts of crazy judgements on irrelevant things such as people's sex lifes.
    In my experience, I've come across the most phoney, self righteous, wilfully ignorant people in the walls of religion. I've also come across the most genuine, honest, loving, intelligent and wise people also. So sweeping generalisations I'd always be weary of.
    Maybe different types of intelligence - for example verbal skills and that sort of thing. But, there are very few who really excel at logic and critical thinking.

    Anyway, you are kinda of contradicting yourself here. One minute, you are saying you don't care about any of this. Another minute you are arguing what are I am saying is not true and what to figure out if I have issues.


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    #4927
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    I think religion - at its worst - is a curse on humanity. It surpresses people's intellectual abilities and makes all sorts of crazy judgements on irrelevant things such as people's sex lifes.

    Yeah, your contempt definitely shows alright.
    Maybe different types of intelligence - for example verbal skills and that sort of thing. But, there are very few who really excel at logic and critical thinking.

    As I said, even if this was the case, it doesn't really bother me. What is clear though, is that your assertions are just coming from a bitter place. You seem to exemplify the apostle Pauls words of 'Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up'.
    Anyway, you are kinda of contradicting yourself here. One minute, you are saying you don't care about any of this.

    I don't care if there are more intelligent non-religious people. I don't care that anyone thinks there are.
    Another minute you are arguing what are I am saying is not true and what to figure out if I have issues.

    That doesn't contradict me not caring if its true. My questions to YOU are due to the bitter tone that is apparent in your posts and the disingenuous way you are using this pseudo intellectualism to get your bitter views off your chest. You seem to indicate regularly how you value intelligence, logic, critical thinking etc, but then engage in disingenuous, emotionally charged and rather pointless ad-hominem attacks on the religious. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. I think you need to be a bit more honest, or at least a bit more critical of your own thinking. You may dress it up to try make it sound a little smarter, but really your position is just 'I hate religion'.


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    #4928
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    ...'Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up'....

    What does that even mean? That being knowledgeable is bad because it inflates somehow and love has blocks of some sort by which it can be gathered at a certain physical location or person?


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    #4929
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    JimiTime wrote: »
    As I said, even if this was the case, it doesn't really bother me. What is clear though, is that your assertions are just coming from a bitter place. You seem to exemplify the apostle Pauls words of 'Knowledge puffs up, but Love builds up'.
    And there's another saying...

    'Ignorance is bliss'
    That doesn't contradict me not caring if its true. My questions to YOU are due to the bitter tone that is apparent in your posts and the disingenuous way you are using this pseudo intellectualism to get your bitter views off your chest. You seem to indicate regularly how you value intelligence, logic, critical thinking etc, but then engage in disingenuous, emotionally charged and rather pointless ad-hominem attacks on the religious. Seems a bit hypocritical to me. I think you need to be a bit more honest, or at least a bit more critical of your own thinking. You may dress it up to try make it sound a little smarter, but really your position is just 'I hate religion'.
    Ok so after all this is you are not happy with my emotions.

    These points are valid. Perhaps, you might take them a bit more seriously and sincerely when someone makes them with better emotions - whatever that requires...


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    #4930
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    What does that even mean? That being knowledgeable is bad because it inflates somehow and love has blocks of some sort by which it can be gathered at a certain physical location or person?

    What happens if you have a love of knowledge?


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    #4931
    JohnMc1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,987 ✭✭✭JohnMc1


    marienbad wrote: »
    The point I am making is that the more educated a society becomes the less religious it becomes , and Ireland is a great example.


    As of the 2011 Census Ireland is still 90%+ religious.


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    #4932
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    JohnMc1 wrote: »
    As of the 2011 Census Ireland is still 90%+ religious.

    Indeed and that in no way contradicts my point or would you seriously contend than we are as devout now as we were in the 50's or 60's or any decade since ? And that trend will continue as it has in every other educated country.


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    #4933
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    And there's another saying...

    'Ignorance is bliss'

    And theres also another saying. Go to bed with itchy bum, wake up with smelly finger.
    Ok so after all this is you are not happy with my emotions.

    These points are valid. Perhaps, you might take them a bit more seriously and sincerely when someone makes them with better emotions - whatever that requires...

    I'm neither happy nor unhappy about it. I think your mental wanderings are rather worthless, even if they happened to be true. Its this disingenuous dressing up of your contempt in these pseudo intellectual points thats rather odd.


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    #4934
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    What does that even mean? That being knowledgeable is bad because it inflates somehow and love has blocks of some sort by which it can be gathered at a certain physical location or person?

    It means that knowledge (or in the context of this thread, the perception of having knowledge) can be a source of pride that puffs us up and makes us haughty. Love is something that can actually build us as a person, bring us joy, happiness, make us better people and ultimately bring us closer to God.

    Knowledge is not in and of itself a bad thing, but rather what we do with it and how we deal with it.


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    #4935
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    It means that knowledge (or in the context of this thread, the perception of having knowledge) can be a source of pride that puffs us up and makes us haughty. Love is something that can actually build us as a person, bring us joy, happiness, make us better people and ultimately bring us closer to God.

    Knowledge is not in and of itself a bad thing, but rather what we do with it and how we deal with it.

    Oh dear :rolleyes:


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    #4936
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Care to expand on that "Oh dear!" comment?


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    #4937
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    Care to expand on that "Oh dear!" comment?

    I don't care too, but I'll give it a shot since you asked. I think through the use of sophistry and equivocation, he's tried to conflate knowledge with prideful hubris and love with something intangible that isn't contingent on knowledge, the former I find absolutely contradictory and abhorrent and the later completely untrue.


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    #4938
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    In psuedo code:

    if (a non believer points out you might actually be ignorant) {
    tell them that love is more important;
    }


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    #4939
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    In psuedo code:

    if (a non believer points out you might actually be ignorant) {
    tell them that love is more important;
    }
    It would be infinitely more productive if you got into what your actual objections to Christianity are one by one.

    Claiming that believers are ignorant is an ad-hominem, and a delusional superiority complex adds nothing to what is and should be a serious discussion.


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    #4940
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    CerebralCortex wrote: »
    I don't care too, but I'll give it a shot since you asked. I think through the use of sophistry and equivocation, he's tried to conflate knowledge with prideful hubris and love with something intangible that isn't contingent on knowledge, the former I find absolutely contradictory and abhorrent and the later completely untrue.

    Laughable tbh.

    If this is the standard that you and Tim are bringing, then you yourselves are a self defeating argument against the assertion that atheists are more intelligent than Christians.


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    #4941
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    In psuedo code:

    if (a non believer points out you might actually be ignorant) {
    tell them that love is more important;
    }

    I am ignorant to a lot of things, as are you. This is nothing to do with our ignorance though. This is about you being hateful of religion, and disingenuously expressing that disdain in pseudo intellectualism. The perception you have of yourself, and of the religious has made you rather haughty also. At least thats the way you come across here. You have being going on about intelligence etc, well how about you lead by example and quit the juvenile rambling?


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    #4942
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I am ignorant to a lot of things, as are you. This is nothing to do with our ignorance though. This is about you being hateful of religion, and disingenuously expressing that disdain in pseudo intellectualism. The perception you have of yourself, and of the religious has made you rather haughty also. At least thats the way you come across here. You have being going on about intelligence etc, well how about you lead by example and quit the juvenile rambling?

    So just like yourself on the gay megathread then jimi ? That was leading by example allright.


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    #4943
    lmaopml
    Registered Users Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Marien, as Christians it's not the first and neither will it be the last time in Salvation history that God warns us not to be 'attached' to the world first -

    Jesus is pretty forthright in explaining how to recognise attachment to any kind of earthly treasures, and explains that what you 'treasure' in life, be it yourself, your freedom to rebel - that's where your heart is.

    It's a Christians God given right not 'human' given right to follow Christ - and by extension it's anothers God given right not to be religious or a follower of Christ. We don't 'tolerate' eachother, or at least I would reject anybody who says they 'tolerate' the religious in their society as being a little daft considering freedom isn't given by man.

    I don't really see the point in Tim's assertions about intelligence and lack of intelligence - Education or otherwise - There have always been Atheists, nothing new, and they haven't always been intelligent, neither have they been stupid. So what? Does this have a 'meaning' should it have?


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    #4944
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    JimiTime wrote: »
    Laughable tbh.

    If this is the standard that you and Tim are bringing, then you yourselves are a self defeating argument against the assertion that atheists are more intelligent than Christians.

    I found it to be an eloquent, lucid and succinct expansion, that directly addressed the points made in your previous post. I wish I could express myself half as well.

    On what grounds do you find it laughable?


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    #4945
    JimiTime
    Registered Users Posts: 7,418 ✭✭✭JimiTime


    pauldla wrote: »
    I found it to be an eloquent, lucid and succinct expansion, that directly addressed the points made in your previous post. I wish I could express myself half as well.

    On what grounds do you find it laughable?

    Just because someone uses nice language doesn't really mean they have a clue. It is laughable, because in using all the nice words, including some faux outrage thrown in for good measure, he failed to grasp the point in relation to knowledge NOT BEING A BAD THING. It is rather the stupidity of man in acquiring knowledge (or in the context of this thread, the perception that one has knowledge) can make them become arrogant and inflated with haughtiness. Which is a very useless and unappealing character trait. That is NOT conflating knowledge with pride, but rather saying that how we deal with knowledge can lead to haughtiness as exemplified on this thread. In terms of Love, nowhere did I indicate it was intangible. So while trying to come across as all intellectual, he just came across as bitter. The problem with Tim, CC and it seems yourself also, is that your preconceptions seem to make you blind. You're already primed to disagree. I'm just waiting for 'John Wine' to come along now


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    #4946
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    JimiTime wrote: »
    I am ignorant to a lot of things, as are you. This is nothing to do with our ignorance though. This is about you being hateful of religion, and disingenuously expressing that disdain in pseudo intellectualism. The perception you have of yourself, and of the religious has made you rather haughty also. At least thats the way you come across here. You have being going on about intelligence etc, well how about you lead by example and quit the juvenile rambling?

    Well it depends on what you want to hear? We could use our intelligence to say nice things about the problems with your religion(is that even possible?) or we could be just flat out honest. Now I've explained how I think your sig is sanctimonious nonsense, could you instead of saying laughable tell me what's actually wrong with what I said i.e. how you conflate pride with knowledge and love a magical force impeded by knowledge?

    Edit just saw post 4945. I'm not trying to come all intellectual (great stuff if I am) I'm only interested in true beliefs.


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    #4947
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    philologos wrote: »
    It would be infinitely more productive if you got into what your actual objections to Christianity are one by one.

    Really? Do you really care what his objections are this time? I mean they've been trotted out time and time again to you and when they sting you ignore.


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    #4948
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    CerebralCortex;
    We could use our intelligence to say nice things about the problems with your religion

    Well instead of going on about how intellectually superior atheism is you could actually say what the problems are.
    You don't accept the resurrection? OK thats a deal breaker, don't be a Christian but don't think it makes you smarter than some one who dose.
    You don't like the way religion controls people? Don't follow one! It's not compulsory, we are all volunteers.
    You think someone made it all up? OK if thats what you think but the data doesn't support your assertion. Fair enough tho cos the data don't support a lot of what we believe either.

    The posting style may be misrepresenting your point of view but what I'm reading is "I'm an intelligent modern sophisticated person not like the deluded poorly educated ignorant fools of religious people, Hurrah for me"
    Not a way to generate or contribute to a debate .


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    #4949
    CerebralCortex
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭CerebralCortex


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Well instead of going on about how intellectually superior atheism is you could actually say what the problems are.

    I never said that. I would agree that a large section of intellectual groups are atheist though.
    tommy2bad wrote: »
    You don't accept the resurrection? OK thats a deal breaker, don't be a Christian but don't think it makes you smarter than some one who dose does.

    Well that's debatable, besides it's not a deal breaker for me, manipulation of matter at a molecular scale doesn't need the Christian God in order to be carried out, but that's besides the point. The evidence is poor.
    tommy2bad wrote: »
    You don't like the way religion controls people? Don't follow one! It's not compulsory, we are all volunteers.

    Tell that to the likes of John Charles McQuaid or the "pro-life" crowd.
    tommy2bad wrote: »
    You think someone made it all up? OK if thats what you think but the data doesn't support your assertion. Fair enough tho cos the data don't support a lot of what we believe either.

    Hold your horses if the data were there I'd change my mind, what data have you got? Why haven't you a Nobel prize?
    tommy2bad wrote: »
    The posting style may be misrepresenting your point of view but what I'm reading is "I'm an intelligent modern sophisticated person not like the deluded poorly educated ignorant fools of religious people, Hurrah for me"
    Not a way to generate or contribute to a debate .

    What posting style? In relation to what? I was asking JimiTime to explain his sig I thought.


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    #4950
    Tim Robbins
    Registered Users Posts: 8,971 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    tommy2bad wrote: »
    Well instead of going on about how intellectually superior atheism is you could actually say what the problems are.
    In summary, there is no evidence to believe a religion. Even though some people find it comforting - it can have dire behavioural consequences and can stunt intellectual development.

    If you want more intellectual elaboration on that check out Bertrand Russell, Colin McGinn, Noam Chomksy or basically what nearly any intellectual has said about religion in the last 50 years.

    But ah sure - you don't care what the intellectuals say... love builds and all that nonsense.

    One minute the Christians harp on about the importance of truth and then they have an issue when someone is truthful pointing out the majority of intellectuals have think their believes are crackers.


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    #4951
    tommy2bad
    Registered Users Posts: 4,255 ✭✭✭tommy2bad


    Tim Robbins wrote: »
    In summary, there is no evidence to believe this crazy nonsense or the crazy nonsense of any other religion. Even though some people find it comforting - it can have dire behavioural consequences and can stunt intellectual development.

    If you want more intellectual elaboration on that check out Bertrand Russell, Colin McGinn, Noam Chomksy or basically what nearly any intellectual has said about religion in the last 50 years.

    But ah sure - you don't care what the intellectuals say... love builds and all that nonsense.

    One minute the Christians harp on about the importance of truth and then they have an issue when someone is truthful pointing out the majority of intellectuals have think their believes are crackers.

    Apologies to Cerebral Cortex, I mixed him/her up with this poster.

    I have read all of the above and agree with lots of what they say and disagree with lots of it too. So what?
    The majority don't think they are crackers just the recent ones.
    Anything can have dire behavioural consequences and stunt intellectual development. It can also have good behavoural consequences and inspire intellectual development. Hell we wouldn't have universities if it were not for religion.
    Grow a brain and loose the superiority complex.


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