Changing Nationality

scudzilla · 08-09-2012 10:39PM

dirtyghettokid wrote: »

i was born and reared in canada. i've lived in ireland for 14 years. i've had irish citizenship for the last ten years. i hold dual citizenship, but i'll always consider myself canadian. it's easier to have dual citizenship, than to just keep remaining here as a permanent resident, renewing those stamps every year.

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

jessiejam · 08-09-2012 10:42PM

In fairness someone would only become a citizen in a country when it would benefit them to become one.

I certainly wouldn't be applying for citizenship in the likes of Nigeria, no matter how long I was living there!

dirtyghettokid · 08-09-2012 10:43PM

scudzilla wrote: »

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

well i cannot speak for the motives for others, but in my own case -- i was working here full time paying taxes, my husband is irish, and i live here permanently.... so why not? if he wants to go and get canadian citizenship, i've no problem with that. not everyone is out to sponge off a country.

but your OP is about nationality, and i stated that i do have dual citizenship, but my nationality is canadian.

3ndahalfof6 · 08-09-2012 10:48PM

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

"I'm American, but I'm Irish because my great great great grandparents were from Ireland" :rolleyes:

Very disrespectful.

Reekwind · 08-09-2012 10:51PM

scudzilla wrote: »

But what's the problem with spending a few hours every year renewing your visa/stamp? Surely it would cut down on all sorts of fraud (Not in any way insinuating you're involved in any fraud)

The obvious answer being that someone who has lived and worked in this country for years has earned the right to play a full role in society. That is, avail of all the duties, responsibilities and, yes, benefits of citizenship

This is not the same as nationality, which is rather more nebulous concept. As plenty of others here have pointed out

SharpshooterTom · 08-09-2012 10:55PM

scudzilla wrote: »

Are there parents Irish? Sure they could get away with being classed as Irish then

Well this is where it gets complicated, my parents are Irish as well but I didn't move till I was 14, meaning I still speak with an English accent, therefore probably classified as English by most people.

In hindsight, as sad as it sounds, your nationality is really determined by what accent you speak with by most people rather than birth.

dirtyghettokid · 08-09-2012 10:57PM

also, just want to add -- i would like to think that anyone who takes up citizenship of another country, is not someone who will "jump ship". it's a fairly serious thing, in my book, to take on citizenship of another country. perhaps it's people on temp visas and the like, who are ones who will "jump ship". (i've heard the term 'economic migrants' being used for those)

Dangerous Man · 08-09-2012 10:58PM

Ardennes1944 wrote: »

i wish i was born in Germany

Ich bin ein Berliner!

A Dub in Glasgo · 08-09-2012 11:01PM

scudzilla wrote: »

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

What passport do you have?

GT_TDI_150 · 08-09-2012 11:03PM

jessiejam wrote: »

In fairness someone would only become a citizen in a country when it would benefit them to become one.

Euh NO!!

Im belgian, lived there till i was 16. Spent the next 17yrs in ireland (still here btw). I went to college here.
Ive Been working and paying tax for last 10yrs. Ive an irish wife and son...

Im looking at what i cN do to get citizenship because i want to be an irish citizen judt like my wife and son, end of!!

Why do people assume its all about sham marriages and benefits chests?

Maybe, just maybe some of us are proud to be irish(by proxy)

scudzilla · 08-09-2012 11:04PM

So why were these ladies on the show last night saying they were now so proud to be Irish???

keith16 · 08-09-2012 11:05PM

Not this again. Dey r tekkin our jobss............

GT_TDI_150 · 08-09-2012 11:09PM

keith16 wrote: »

Not this again. Dey r tekkin our jobss............

Not to forget carz, women, houses, spots on the soccer, football, hurling and rugby teams, places in schools and colleges, taking up hospital bed ...

How dare we

Heard 'em all before

Fromthetrees · 08-09-2012 11:10PM

I grew from a single cabbage seed in a pot inside the German embassy, so I was 'technically' born in Germany, but my cabbage leaves touched Irish soil first.

Madam_X · 08-09-2012 11:10PM

scudzilla wrote: »

There's a guy i work with, He's from Pakistan, he married a Latvian woman 4yrs ago and has been in Ireland ever since, he doesn't live with her, yet has just applied for Irish Citizenship!!! All because he married an EU member!

So what? He's here four years.

Reekwind · 08-09-2012 11:15PM

ThomasFlynn wrote: »

In hindsight, as sad as it sounds, your nationality is really determined by what accent you speak with by most people rather than birth.

Accent is as good a shorthand as any and better than most. Where people live during their formative years is pretty important and the experiences gained here obviously play a role in developing how they see the world

But then the whole issue of national identity is hugely complex. What is important to state though is that people shouldn't be put in boxes. Why be Irish or English? It's perfectly possible to be a mix of both, to carry elements of both and Irish and English upbringing with you. Arguably that's inevitable

scudzilla wrote:

So why were these ladies on the show last night saying they were now so proud to be Irish???

Maybe because they're now able to participate as legal equals in the country that they've spent the last decade living in?

Are you so conditioned by talk of 'welfare cheats' and the like that you're unable to comprehend how people might actually be proud to live in Ireland and to be an Irish citizen? That being able to play a full and unrestricted role in Irish society, in which they have technically been aliens for a decade, might be considered a Good Thing?

IrishAm · 08-09-2012 11:17PM

Madam_X wrote: »

So what? He's here four years.

So, because hes here four years, due him being married to a Latvian, we should give him Irish citizenship?

Do you value Irish citizenship at all at all at all, lads?

Should we give it out with ten Tayto wrappers ,twenty euro handling fee, and E4.95 postage and packaging?

IrishAm · 08-09-2012 11:22PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Are you so conditioned by talk of 'welfare cheats' and the like that you're unable to comprehend how people might actually be proud to live in Ireland and to be an Irish citizen? That being able to play a full and unrestricted role in Irish society, in which they have technically been aliens for a decade, might be considered a Good Thing?

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.:rolleyes:

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Bollix of the highest order.

Former asylum seekers, who gave birth here before the IBC loophole was closed up by referendum, got leave to remain to bring up their "Irish" children and eventually gaining citizenship thanks to Justice minister Shatter.

Fratton Fred · 08-09-2012 11:25PM

scudzilla wrote: »

cml387 wrote: »

Given that you have no choice as to where you're born it seems a bit unfair to be stuck with the country you were born in.

Especially if you're Welsh.

Yeah I'm Welsh, and i'll stay Welsh, that's what i was born as and that's what i'll die as, be it unfair or not. But no way in hell am i gonna go to another country and choose to become one of there citizens just because it's a bit better than Wales.

Fortunately for us Brits, the Irish and British governments have a reciprocal agreement where citizens of our two countries have more or less the same rights wherever we live. It isn't the same for Romanians Nigerians.

shuyin1 · 08-09-2012 11:25PM

Probably just cheaper in the long run since visas/stamps/time costs money if you're non eu. Most are forgetting there's a fee to becoming a citizen, roughly 1k plus time and large amounts paperwork, lawyers etc. I've dual citizenship myself, less hassle entering a country as its citizen and more convenient having 2 since some countries have better links between them.

keith16 · 08-09-2012 11:25PM

IrishAm wrote: »

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.:rolleyes:

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Bollix of the highest order.

Former asylum seekers, who gave birth here before the IBC loophole was closed up by referendum, got leave to remain to bring up their "Irish" children and eventually gaining citizenship thanks to Justice minister Shatter.

Well take it up with Shatter then. And if their children were born here, then of course they are Irish.

How many Irish in the US have had children there. Are those kids not American?

IrishAm · 08-09-2012 11:28PM

keith16 wrote: »

Well take it up with Shatter then. And if their children were born here, then of course they are Irish.

How many Irish in the US have had children there. Are those kids not American?

Only those born to Irish or British parents are automatically Irish citizens.

However after Article 2 was changed complaints started to be made that foreign asylum seekers and illegal immigrants were deliberately presenting themselves at hospitals in the Republic or in Northern Ireland in the late stages of pregnancy in order to secure citizenship for their children, a practice sometimes called "birth tourism".
In January 2003, the Supreme Court of Ireland added to this controversy by ruling that it was constitutional for the Government to deport the parents of children who were Irish citizens. In May 2004 the European Court of Justice ruled in the case of Kunqian Catherine Zhu (the Chen case) that a non-native mother whose child was born in Northern Ireland and thus acquired Irish citizenship had the right to live with her child in the United Kingdom. The implications of this ruling were that the parent of an Irish citizen who is still a child would have the right to reside anywhere in the European Union. The mother had been living in Wales and had been liable to deportation there but had travelled to Northern Ireland on legal advice to give birth.
The effect of the Twenty-seventh Amendment was not to immediately remove the right to citizenship by birth but rather that it would cease to be a constitutional right. After the amendment the right to citizenship by birth still existed in law and it remained for the Oireachtas (parliament) to pass ordinary legislation that would remove it. Furthermore the amendment did not remove the constitutional right to citizenship by birth from everyone. Today a constitutional right to citizenship still exists for anyone who is both:
Born on the island of Ireland (including its islands and seas).
Born to at least one parent who is, or is entitled to be, an Irish citizen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

keith16 · 08-09-2012 11:32PM

IrishAm wrote: »

Only those born to Irish or British parents are automatically Irish citizens.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-seventh_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

your location says it all....very precious about where you're from? I suppose you hate the idea of "culchies" living in Dublin too?

Reekwind · 08-09-2012 11:35PM

IrishAm wrote: »

Do you value Irish citizenship at all at all at all, lads?

Should we give it out with ten Tayto wrappers ,twenty euro handling fee, and E4.95 postage and packaging?

No, it's for living in this country for five years. Which seems plenty long enough for me

Incidentally, I don't see how having new Irish citizens somehow devalues citizenship for the rest of us. Is there some finite reservoir of 'Irishness' that I'm not aware of?

Watch the clip the Welsh lad is alluding to. These ladies gave birth to Irish born children and evidently, got leave to remain due to that fact. When Tubridy asked them why they came here, they claimed that they wanted to see the Guinness Factory in the flesh.

Of course Tubridy failed to press her on such a ludicrous answer.

Are you telling me that you watched that talk of becoming accepted, the peaceful nature of Galway, the traditional missionary links, the desire to have the same citizenship as one's child, etc, and all you took away was a flippant joke about Guinness? Well, you probably also thought that the follow up about the weather was serious too

Stars and Bars · 08-09-2012 11:42PM

scudzilla wrote: »

I've been thinking about this a lot lately and just can't get my head round it.

Why are people so eager to change their nationality, and why is it even allowed?

A good friend of mine is from Romania, he's been living here 10yrs and earlier this year he became an Irish Citizen, i still class him as Romanian and always will.

On The Late Late Show last night were 4 Nigerian Ladies who have been living in Galway for 10yrs, last week they all became Irish Citizens.

Surely citizenship is 1 thing that should remain the same from the day you're born to the day you die.

I'm Welsh, been living here for 7yrs and would never dream of desserting my nationality because something better came along.

If you're born in a country then that country is your nationality.

What happens, say 10yrs in the future, if Ireland is already more fcuked than it is now, we've defaulted countless times on the debt, been thrown out of the euro and unemployment is hitting 40%, Will these 'New' Citizens jump ship and move along to the next up and coming country??

What are your views?

They are as Irish as Didier Drogba. Which is not at all.

IrishAm · 08-09-2012 11:43PM

Reekwind wrote: »

Incidentally, I don't see how having new Irish citizens somehow devalues citizenship for the rest of us. Is there some finite reservoir of 'Irishness' that I'm not aware of?

I've got an idea and one that Shatter can respect and appreciate. How about we copy Israels citizenship policies? Like them, we too have a large and wealthy diaspora that suffered throughout the ages. Like them, we too are entitled to our own homeland.

Those of Irish ancestry or those whom have married an Irish spouse can become Irish citizens. The rest can get indefinite leave to remain.

Then we can stop the mental gymnastics which creates a situation were a lads Angolan at breakfast and by lunchtime, he is Irish.

ejmaztec · 08-09-2012 11:43PM

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I would assume people want citizenship of the country they live in to access the services their taxes have helped pay for.

They might also want to be able to vote to influence the policies of politicians.

If they ever work out how to do that, I hope they'll pass on the info to the rest of us.

keith16 · 08-09-2012 11:47PM

Stars and Bars wrote: »

They are as Irish as Didier Drogba. Which is not at all.

I don't know.

He is from Côte D'Ivoire whose flag is a mirror image or Ireland's tri-colour. So I would say Drogba is well aware of his Irish connections.

syklops · 08-09-2012 11:48PM

ejmaztec wrote: »

If they ever work out how to do that, I hope they'll pass on the info to the rest of us.

You mean aside from brown envelopes?

keith16 · 08-09-2012 11:51PM

IrishAm wrote: »

I've got an idea and one that Shatter can respect and appreciate. How about we copy Israels citizenship policies? Like them, we too have a large and wealthy diaspora that suffered throughout the ages. Like them, we too are entitled to our own homeland.

Those of Irish ancestry or those whom have married an Irish spouse can become Irish citizens. The rest can get indefinite leave to remain.

Then we can stop the mental gymnastics which creates a situation were a lads Angolan at breakfast and by lunchtime, he is Irish.

Yes, because Israel are a fcuking international beacon of respecting the notions of citizenship and nationality.

All we have to find is some third world country who we can collectively imprison, torture, rape and systematically destroy in order to cement these ideals.

For fúcks sake.

Changing Nationality

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