Abortion

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 09:38PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

While you are looking up the MAP, contraceptives and the other abortion complexities, I'd suggest you also avail of a dictionary:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/enforced

That you can accuse people of being pro-abortion and killing children then take exception to the phrase enforced pregnancy is deliciously ironic tho.

I'm out - not feeding you any more.

I don't know why you keep forcing these 'complexities', sure there are complexities in other arguments but that need not take from their core principles. For example, i can see it's a difficult decision to know when to remove life support in some circumstances because we have to establish whether the person is alive or dead, which can be difficult. This doesn't mean that we can't establish that freely choosing to kill somebody is wrong.

Also, on the one hand, you've accused me of 'cute soundbites' but a few posts back i was being tactless?????

It has been explained reasonably earlier in this thread why the term pro-abortion is used. A good example given in it's justification, is that we use pro and anti - death penalty. Being pro-death penalty does not mean death-penalty for everyone. If you wish to use an alternative applicable term please do so.

As regarding, saying that abortonists kill unborn children thats quite a logical and reasonable thing to say if you believe that an unborn child has life. We're allowed to believe that right?

Where I have a serious problem is what you've accused me of, which is absolutely horrible. I see no justification or offer of apology.

Turtwig · 07-09-2012 09:42PM

Well, seeing as no one even attempt to answer it in my earlier streamly post. :

If life begins at conception, why doesn't death begin at total decay?

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 09:44PM

Jernal wrote: »

Well, seeing as no one answered it in my earlier streamly post.

If life begins at conception, why doesn't death begin at total decay?

biological processes are occurring from the moment you are conceived that form you as a person. These all abruptly halt upon death - apart from decay of course

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 09:44PM

Just to further clarify, it's not that I:

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

take exception to the phrase enforced pregnancy

It's that im hugely insulted you claim that i:

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

propose to force women to be pregnant against their wish and will.

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 09:48PM

Also can someone from the anti abortion side answer me this from earlier. Why are you so opposed to resources being made available that increases a womens options when she has an unwanted pregnancy? Im not saying marching them all up with no choice in the matter just having the option available

Turtwig · 07-09-2012 09:49PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

biological processes are occurring from the moment you are conceived that form you as a person. These all abruptly halt upon death - apart from decay of course

Part of the decay is caused by certain biological processes e.g intestinal bacteria still doing its job.
So which specific processes make you a person and which don't?

gozunda · 07-09-2012 09:54PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

I haven't fully read up on the debate you've been having here but I think this issue has already been covered. I'm anti-abortion because I believe the unborn child has life. I have the utmost sympathy for those parents (and the child) if that child dies through miscarriage. It is a horrible situation and my heart goes out to them.

Well thats ok thats YOUR opinion and I can respect that. However whilst an unborn fotus may have "life" from a specific stage of development and at birth it may even be capable of independent life, whether it can be considered apart from the mother at any stage before viability is at best debatable.

tomtherobot wrote: »

....

I think it's a telling acid test for the pro-abortionists to ask them would they tell the grieving parent's of a child lost through miscarriage that it wasn't really a child, just a lifeless bunch of cells.

No its not and not what you said in the first Quote above btw....that is a complete lack of tact with a heavy dose of ignorance. Your trerm "pro-abortionists" is a disambiguation. Those who are pro-choice that experience a miscarriage are not by definition anti baby they simply aknowledge that choice is the responsibility of the individual. There is a distinct difference. If someone miscarries very early on in the pregnancy (when abortion is allowed) where the emotional impact may be less than miscarriage than when the foetus is fully developed (And when abortion is not allowed) The difference between a Zygote, Blast Cyst Embryo and a predelivery Foetus is aknowledged in medical science.

cynder wrote: »

Baby is a person to the mother,she can feel it kick, hiccup, move around, see it in the scan kicking its legs, sucking its thumb, dancing inside the womb. Hearing its little heart beat. It's magical and to lose that, it's not just about the future when baby is out and about. Having the baby growing inside you is amazing. You even talk to it, sing to it, tell it stories. The fetus is a person a little boy or little girl and your telling me it that contradiction wouldn't even come up.... Bull.
Have you seen a 12 week scan an 8 week scan a 15 week scan a 18, 19 week scan. A bunch of cells?

A delivered baby may be a person in its own right but as above before viability whether it can be considered apart from the mother is debatable. Yes as the foetus grews in complexity there is an increasing complexity of movement and sexual development. The development as stated moves through distinct stages however to say that on conception that this is immediatly equal and equivalent to a delivered baby is at best disingenuous

tomtherobot wrote: »

....

I don't know enough about these contraceptions to argue on them with you, that doesn't take from my argument that there is an intuitive logic that an unborn child is alive.

It may be to your good self...but using the terms unborn - child - alive in a single sentence lacks logic imo (see above).

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 09:55PM

Jernal wrote: »

Part of the decay is caused by certain biological processes e.g intestinal bacteria still doing its job.
So which specific processes make you a person and which don't?

Im pro choice by the way but a few hours after conception cells begin to divide until you have 3 separate germ layers. From these layers we garner all our physical attributes. SO I guess any biological process that occurs in the body from the moment of conception to the time you stop breathing make you a person. Bacteria arent part of the host they simply live in harmony inside them so the work they carry out shouldnt be considered imo

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 10:03PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

I think it's a telling acid test for the pro-abortionists to ask them would they tell the grieving parent's of a child lost through miscarriage that it wasn't really a child, just a lifeless bunch of cells.

The above seems to be your main argument. When people are grieving you tell them what they need to hear despite your personal beliefs

Ickle Magoo · 07-09-2012 10:09PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

...You have accused me of something awful, that I would force pregnancy on someone, which is what, rape?

Go back and read what I said...was it:

propose to force women to be pregnant against their wish and will

propose to force women to get pregnant against their wish and will

Hats off to you though - you've done a much more thorough job of discrediting yourself than I ever could. :cool:

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 10:11PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

The above seems to be your main argument. When people are grieving you tell them what they need to hear despite your personal beliefs

There's no point, thats already been explained to them by several posters. They'll just repeat as if what you just said makes no sense.

Turtwig · 07-09-2012 10:14PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Im pro choice by the way but a few hours after conception cells begin to divide until you have 3 separate germ layers. From these layers we garner all our physical attributes. SO I guess any biological process that occurs in the body from the moment of conception to the time you stop breathing make you a person. Bacteria arent part of the host they simply live in harmony inside them so the work they carry out shouldnt be considered imo

Sorry to be probing you with questions, but I think this is the best way to go for the moment.

But that's a bit circular. Think of it this way, if we met aliens, how would you know whether to class them as persons or not? What criteria would you make that judgement call on.

If the bacteria and other cells that contribute the decay processes didn't do their initial jobs you wouldn't be alive in the first place.

cynder · 07-09-2012 10:20PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Also can someone from the anti abortion side answer me this from earlier. Why are you so opposed to resources being made available that increases a womens options when she has an unwanted pregnancy? Im not saying marching them all up with no choice in the matter just having the option available

What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option is there for any woman in irekand, hop on a boat to UK. sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.

Personally killing an unborn baby is disgusting, the only way I could understand someone who decided to get rid is if they were raped or they would die because of the pregnancy. Personally I wouldn't get rid. I value the life of the unborn above my own. Just as I value my children's lives above my own. A true mother's love should know no bounds, while they are in your belly or out if it.

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 10:21PM

Jernal wrote: »

Sorry to be probing you with questions, but I think this is the best way to go for the moment.

But that's a bit circular. Think of it this way, if we met aliens, how would you know whether to class them as persons or not? What criteria would you make that judgement call on.

If the bacteria and other cells that contribute the decay processes didn't do their initial jobs you wouldn't be alive in the first place.

dunno bout the aliens but we only need the bacteria when we live in a certain environment. Yes Human life as we know it could not exist without bacteria but people with immune system that are so oppressed have been known to live in sterile bubbles similar to conditions of the womb (as in its a sterile bacteria free environment) does that make them any less of a human?

kinda gone way off topic here

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 10:22PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

Also can someone from the anti abortion side answer me this from earlier. Why are you so opposed to resources being made available that increases a womens options when she has an unwanted pregnancy? Im not saying marching them all up with no choice in the matter just having the option available

Just to clarify this debate and the OP were about post-abortion counseling

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

The above seems to be your main argument. When people are grieving you tell them what they need to hear despite your personal beliefs

But if pro-abortion really was your personal belief you would have to believe that they need to hear it. It's the only option with that belief and this situation.

gozunda wrote: »

Well thats ok thats YOUR opinion and I can respect that. However whilst an unborn fotus may have "life" from a specific stage of development and at birth it may even be capable of independent life, whether it can be considered apart from the mother at any stage before viability is at best debatable.

Relevance? Surely we value all human life?

gozunda wrote: »

No its not and not what you said in the first Quote above btw....that is a complete lack of tact with a heavy dose of ignorance.

Please explain the difference in what i said in these quotes, without just calling me ignorant? I don't see a lack this lack of tact, this is clearly not my belief, clearly not how i would console somebody in this awful situation.

gozunda wrote: »

Your trerm "pro-abortionists" is a disambiguation. Those who are pro-choice that experience a miscarriage are not by definition anti baby they simply aknowledge that choice is the responsibility of the individual. There is a distinct difference. If someone miscarries very early on in the pregnancy (when abortion is allowed) where the emotional impact may be less than miscarriage than when the foetus is fully developed (And when abortion is not allowed) The difference between a Zygote, Blast Cyst Embryo and a predelivery Foetus is aknowledged in medical science.

Please explain surely pro-choice is a much greater disambiguation (if you wanna compare disambiguations

). I up for using another term is you want to offer a suitable alternative?

gozunda wrote: »

It may be to your good self...but using the terms unborn - child - alive in a single sentence lacks logic imo (see above).

I don't understand your opinion, are you saying that because medical science distinguishes between different stage of pregnancy, some or all, are not 'alive'?

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 10:28PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

Go back and read what I said...was it:

propose to force women to be pregnant against their wish and will

propose to force women to get pregnant against their wish and will

Hats off to you though - you've done a much more thorough job of discrediting yourself than I ever could. :cool:

What?? You're clutching at straws?, you're just showing me your interpretation of a difference in those two statements. Surely you can see that both are hugely insulting given that i don't hold either of these views.

I made this clear to you several times, if you're not going to have the decency to apologize at least have the decency to stop these pathetic excuses.

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 10:29PM

cynder wrote: »

What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option I'd already here, hop on a boat to UK sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.

1. Dedicated centers who deal with unplanned pregnancy. I realise there are online resources for this as well as phone services but it might be nice to talk to a professional face to face who isn't your GP.

2. An actual center for carrying out the procedure. Im sure it is a stressful enough time without having to go to a foreign country in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar people looking after you. At least if these procedures took place in dedicated centres in Ireland you may already have come face to face with someone to discuss your options.

3. A counselling service after the event. I believe we already have one of these available ran by the HSE.

I dont think anyone would use it as a regular contraceptive given the nature of the whole thing but I dont think the option should be made available to those who find themselves in a once off predicament

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 10:31PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

But if pro-abortion really was your personal belief you would have to believe that they need to hear it. It's the only option with that belief and this situation.

I dont think anyone is pro abortion Im pro choice and the terms are certainly different

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 10:38PM

Lingua Franca wrote: »

This is not a thread, it is a soapbox.

Fair enough but i have to say my take on the abortion issue has softened somewhat.

While i still believe that abortion is killing i can now see that a sizable amount of people on the pro-abortion side genuinely believe they are doing some good by the unborn child.

Even though I can't understand it, I can also see that a lot of these people also see an unborn child as somehow not fully a human life. As such i don't think they are callously disregarding a life but ignorant of it's existence.

cynder · 07-09-2012 10:40PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option I'd already here, hop on a boat to UK sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.

1. Dedicated centers who deal with unplanned pregnancy. I realise there are online resources for this as well as phone services but it might be nice to talk to a professional face to face who isn't your GP.

2. An actual center for carrying out the procedure. Im sure it is a stressful enough time without having to go to a foreign country in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar people looking after you. At least if these procedures took place in dedicated centres in Ireland you may already have come face to face with someone to discuss your options.

3. A counselling service after the event. I believe we already have one of these available ran by the HSE.

I dont think anyone would use it as a regular contraceptive given the nature of the whole thing but I dont think the option should be made available to those who find themselves in a once off predicament

The only way someone would be familiar with the centre or the people is if they go there more than once, it's still going to be a foreign experience.

There is a cura and positive options and maybe a few other places and every woman In Ireland can go see another gp other than their own.

Why would someone need counseling if it's something they really wanted?

If there not 100% sure they shouldn'tgo ahead and do it, they should not be encouraged to do it.

tomtherobot · 07-09-2012 10:44PM

Regarding thanks from Ickle Magoo

So far the vast majority of people and this thread have remained civil and respectful, it's a shame that an experienced boards user like you would be the one dragging it to insults and petty-baiting.

Reality_Check1 · 07-09-2012 10:46PM

cynder wrote: »

The only way someone would be familiar with the centre or the people is if they go there more than once, it's still going to be a foreign experience.

Id like to think that before any procedure was carried out there would need to be an initial consultation to discuss a persons options and the procedure carried out on a subsequent day. Even that kind of interaction would be beneficial to a lady

cynder wrote: »

There is a cura and positive options and maybe a few other places and every woman In Ireland can go see another gp other than their own.

All of which will discuss the option of termination, recommend a centre to attend in England and advise on the best place to seek counselling upon their return

cynder wrote: »

Why would someone need counseling if it's something they really wanted?

If there not 100% sure they shouldn'tgo ahead and do it, they should not be encouraged to do it.

I think its pretty clear why someone would need counselling. Im not sure if you posting the above suggests that you are ignorant to that issue or are trying to play devils advocate

cynder · 07-09-2012 10:55PM

tomtherobot wrote: »

Lingua Franca wrote: »

This is not a thread, it is a soapbox.

Fair enough but i have to say my take on the abortion issue has softened somewhat.

Even though I can't understand it, I can also see that a lot of these people also see an unborn child as somehow not fully a human life. As such i don't think they are callously disregarding a life but ignorant of it's existence.

The way I see it is they tell themselves this over and over to lesson the impact of their actions. Its a bunch of cells it doesn't matter. It isn't alive, it doesn't have feelings, it's nothing, Its a bunch of cells it doesn't matter,it isn't alive, it doesn't have feelings, it's nothing. They tell themselves over and over soon enough they start to believe it, but then they do it and are consumed with guilt and need counseling.

The due date comes, the 1st birthday comes, the what ifs arise, if baby was here now what would I be doing, can go on for years.

It could have been alive if given a chance, those what ifs could have been.

You cant undo it. but to make everyone feel better we will call the baby a bunch
of cells.

cynder · 07-09-2012 11:06PM

Reality_Check1 wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The only way someone would be familiar with the centre or the people is if they go there more than once, it's still going to be a foreign experience.

Id like to think that before any procedure was carried out there would need to be an initial consultation to discuss a persons options and the procedure carried out on a subsequent day. Even that kind of interaction would be beneficial to a lady

cynder wrote: »

There is a cura and positive options and maybe a few other places and every woman In Ireland can go see another gp other than their own.

All of which will discuss the option of termination, recommend a centre to attend in England and advise on the best place to seek counselling upon their return

cynder wrote: »

Why would someone need counseling if it's something they really wanted?

If there not 100% sure they shouldn'tgo ahead and do it, they should not be encouraged to do it.

I think its pretty clear why someone would need counselling. Im not sure if you posting the above suggests that you are ignorant to that issue or are trying to play devils advocate

Enlighten me! Why would someone need counseling? If it's only a bunch of cells? Because the premature demise of the bunch of cells triggers a chain reaction that will follow them through to their own demise. If they really wanted it gone they shouldn't need counseling. You dont need counseling if you get your tonsils removed.

If cura and positive options already provide a service why do we need another one?

You can talk about the ins and outs of abortion on the day or with positve options, and or gp before trip to UK.

Millicent · 07-09-2012 11:14PM

cynder wrote: »

What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option is there for any woman in irekand, hop on a boat to UK. sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.

Personally killing an unborn baby is disgusting, the only way I could understand someone who decided to get rid is if they were raped or they would die because of the pregnancy. Personally I wouldn't get rid. I value the life of the unborn above my own. Just as I value my children's lives above my own. A true mother's love should know no bounds, while they are in your belly or out if it.

So you're seriously against abortion but are happy to see women sent to England for one, so long as it's not on your doorstep?

That's one of the most ridiculous and self-serving arguments I've heard against abortion in a long time.

cynder · 07-09-2012 11:26PM

Millicent wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option is there for any woman in irekand, hop on a boat to UK. sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.

Personally killing an unborn baby is disgusting, the only way I could understand someone who decided to get rid is if they were raped or they would die because of the pregnancy. Personally I wouldn't get rid. I value the life of the unborn above my own. Just as I value my children's lives above my own. A true mother's love should know no bounds, while they are in your belly or out if it.

So you're seriously against abortion but are happy to see women sent to England for one, so long as it's not on your doorstep?

That's one of the most ridiculous and self-serving arguments I've heard against abortion in a long time.

No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go Why would I be happy to see women kill the unborn babies down the road from me? if it comes to it I'll vote no again...

I don't see the sense it making the choice to kill an unborn baby the easy way out. If a woman travels to the UK she must really want it gone and is not doing it on a whim.

Every woman has a choice a choice to travel and terminate the pregnancy, no I wouldn't like to see it on my own doorstep. I'm entitled to that opinion and Ireland passed the no vote in the last 2 referendums so I'm not alone. I do believe since the last referendums that more people are open to the idea of abortion some only under exceptional circumstances and others as a form of contraception.

If if ever does get passed in Ireland so be it, but I won't be availing of it. I won't be putting up posters but I will continue to hold my views thats it's a baby, a life that is being terminated.

Dyr · 07-09-2012 11:32PM

cynder wrote: »

No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go Why would I be happy to see women kill the unborn babies down the road from me? if it comes to it I'll vote no again...

I don't see the sense it making the choice to kill an unborn baby the easy way out. If a woman travels to the UK she must really want it gone and is not doing it on a whim.

I imagine you wouldn't actually get to see them killing unborn babies. Maybe just try to picture it in your head if you want

Ickle Magoo · 07-09-2012 11:35PM

cynder wrote: »

No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go

You can criminalise every aspect of abortion - including travelling to procure an abortion or helping someone else travel to procure an abortion...the Irish people voted in a referendum in 1992 to protect the rights to travel and information...so it's not so much a case of anti-abortion as abortion nimbyism.

cynder · 07-09-2012 11:39PM

Ickle Magoo wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go

You can criminalise every aspect of abortion - including travelling to procure an abortion or helping someone else travel to procure an abortion...the Irish people voted in a referendum in 1992 to protect the rights to travel and information...so it's not so much a case of anti-abortion as abortion nimbyism.

I personally can't criminalise anything.

Ickle Magoo · 07-09-2012 11:41PM

cynder wrote: »

I personally can't criminalise anything.

Of course not - that wouldn't be very democratic...

Abortion

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