Ickle Magoo wrote: » While you are looking up the MAP, contraceptives and the other abortion complexities, I'd suggest you also avail of a dictionary:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/enforced That you can accuse people of being pro-abortion and killing children then take exception to the phrase enforced pregnancy is deliciously ironic tho. I'm out - not feeding you any more.
Jernal wrote: » Well, seeing as no one answered it in my earlier streamly post. If life begins at conception, why doesn't death begin at total decay?
Ickle Magoo wrote: » take exception to the phrase enforced pregnancy
Ickle Magoo wrote: » propose to force women to be pregnant against their wish and will.
Reality_Check1 wrote: » biological processes are occurring from the moment you are conceived that form you as a person. These all abruptly halt upon death - apart from decay of course
tomtherobot wrote: » I haven't fully read up on the debate you've been having here but I think this issue has already been covered. I'm anti-abortion because I believe the unborn child has life. I have the utmost sympathy for those parents (and the child) if that child dies through miscarriage. It is a horrible situation and my heart goes out to them.
tomtherobot wrote: » .... I think it's a telling acid test for the pro-abortionists to ask them would they tell the grieving parent's of a child lost through miscarriage that it wasn't really a child, just a lifeless bunch of cells.
cynder wrote: » Baby is a person to the mother,she can feel it kick, hiccup, move around, see it in the scan kicking its legs, sucking its thumb, dancing inside the womb. Hearing its little heart beat. It's magical and to lose that, it's not just about the future when baby is out and about. Having the baby growing inside you is amazing. You even talk to it, sing to it, tell it stories. The fetus is a person a little boy or little girl and your telling me it that contradiction wouldn't even come up.... Bull. Have you seen a 12 week scan an 8 week scan a 15 week scan a 18, 19 week scan. A bunch of cells?
tomtherobot wrote: » .... I don't know enough about these contraceptions to argue on them with you, that doesn't take from my argument that there is an intuitive logic that an unborn child is alive.
Jernal wrote: » Part of the decay is caused by certain biological processes e.g intestinal bacteria still doing its job. So which specific processes make you a person and which don't?
tomtherobot wrote: » I think it's a telling acid test for the pro-abortionists to ask them would they tell the grieving parent's of a child lost through miscarriage that it wasn't really a child, just a lifeless bunch of cells.
tomtherobot wrote: » ...You have accused me of something awful, that I would force pregnancy on someone, which is what, rape?
Reality_Check1 wrote: » The above seems to be your main argument. When people are grieving you tell them what they need to hear despite your personal beliefs
Reality_Check1 wrote: » Im pro choice by the way but a few hours after conception cells begin to divide until you have 3 separate germ layers. From these layers we garner all our physical attributes. SO I guess any biological process that occurs in the body from the moment of conception to the time you stop breathing make you a person. Bacteria arent part of the host they simply live in harmony inside them so the work they carry out shouldnt be considered imo
Reality_Check1 wrote: » Also can someone from the anti abortion side answer me this from earlier. Why are you so opposed to resources being made available that increases a womens options when she has an unwanted pregnancy? Im not saying marching them all up with no choice in the matter just having the option available
Jernal wrote: » Sorry to be probing you with questions, but I think this is the best way to go for the moment. But that's a bit circular. Think of it this way, if we met aliens, how would you know whether to class them as persons or not? What criteria would you make that judgement call on. If the bacteria and other cells that contribute the decay processes didn't do their initial jobs you wouldn't be alive in the first place.
gozunda wrote: » Well thats ok thats YOUR opinion and I can respect that. However whilst an unborn fotus may have "life" from a specific stage of development and at birth it may even be capable of independent life, whether it can be considered apart from the mother at any stage before viability is at best debatable.
gozunda wrote: » No its not and not what you said in the first Quote above btw....that is a complete lack of tact with a heavy dose of ignorance.
gozunda wrote: » Your trerm "pro-abortionists" is a disambiguation. Those who are pro-choice that experience a miscarriage are not by definition anti baby they simply aknowledge that choice is the responsibility of the individual. There is a distinct difference. If someone miscarries very early on in the pregnancy (when abortion is allowed) where the emotional impact may be less than miscarriage than when the foetus is fully developed (And when abortion is not allowed) The difference between a Zygote, Blast Cyst Embryo and a predelivery Foetus is aknowledged in medical science.
gozunda wrote: » It may be to your good self...but using the terms unborn - child - alive in a single sentence lacks logic imo (see above).
Ickle Magoo wrote: » Go back and read what I said...was it: propose to force women to be pregnant against their wish and will propose to force women to get pregnant against their wish and will Hats off to you though - you've done a much more thorough job of discrediting yourself than I ever could. :cool:
cynder wrote: » What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option I'd already here, hop on a boat to UK sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive.
tomtherobot wrote: » But if pro-abortion really was your personal belief you would have to believe that they need to hear it. It's the only option with that belief and this situation.
Lingua Franca wrote: » This is not a thread, it is a soapbox.
Reality_Check1 wrote: » cynder wrote: » What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option I'd already here, hop on a boat to UK sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive. 1. Dedicated centers who deal with unplanned pregnancy. I realise there are online resources for this as well as phone services but it might be nice to talk to a professional face to face who isn't your GP. 2. An actual center for carrying out the procedure. Im sure it is a stressful enough time without having to go to a foreign country in an unfamiliar environment with unfamiliar people looking after you. At least if these procedures took place in dedicated centres in Ireland you may already have come face to face with someone to discuss your options. 3. A counselling service after the event. I believe we already have one of these available ran by the HSE. I dont think anyone would use it as a regular contraceptive given the nature of the whole thing but I dont think the option should be made available to those who find themselves in a once off predicament
cynder wrote: » The only way someone would be familiar with the centre or the people is if they go there more than once, it's still going to be a foreign experience.
cynder wrote: » There is a cura and positive options and maybe a few other places and every woman In Ireland can go see another gp other than their own.
cynder wrote: » Why would someone need counseling if it's something they really wanted? If there not 100% sure they shouldn'tgo ahead and do it, they should not be encouraged to do it.
tomtherobot wrote: » Lingua Franca wrote: » This is not a thread, it is a soapbox. Fair enough but i have to say my take on the abortion issue has softened somewhat. Even though I can't understand it, I can also see that a lot of these people also see an unborn child as somehow not fully a human life. As such i don't think they are callously disregarding a life but ignorant of it's existence.
Reality_Check1 wrote: » cynder wrote: » The only way someone would be familiar with the centre or the people is if they go there more than once, it's still going to be a foreign experience. Id like to think that before any procedure was carried out there would need to be an initial consultation to discuss a persons options and the procedure carried out on a subsequent day. Even that kind of interaction would be beneficial to a lady cynder wrote: » There is a cura and positive options and maybe a few other places and every woman In Ireland can go see another gp other than their own. All of which will discuss the option of termination, recommend a centre to attend in England and advise on the best place to seek counselling upon their return cynder wrote: » Why would someone need counseling if it's something they really wanted? If there not 100% sure they shouldn'tgo ahead and do it, they should not be encouraged to do it. I think its pretty clear why someone would need counselling. Im not sure if you posting the above suggests that you are ignorant to that issue or are trying to play devils advocate
cynder wrote: » What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option is there for any woman in irekand, hop on a boat to UK. sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive. Personally killing an unborn baby is disgusting, the only way I could understand someone who decided to get rid is if they were raped or they would die because of the pregnancy. Personally I wouldn't get rid. I value the life of the unborn above my own. Just as I value my children's lives above my own. A true mother's love should know no bounds, while they are in your belly or out if it.
Millicent wrote: » cynder wrote: » What resources ? 1 resource abortion, that option is there for any woman in irekand, hop on a boat to UK. sorted. Why does it have to be on the doorstep? It shouldn't be used as a contraceptive, it's vile that people use abortion as a contraceptive. Personally killing an unborn baby is disgusting, the only way I could understand someone who decided to get rid is if they were raped or they would die because of the pregnancy. Personally I wouldn't get rid. I value the life of the unborn above my own. Just as I value my children's lives above my own. A true mother's love should know no bounds, while they are in your belly or out if it. So you're seriously against abortion but are happy to see women sent to England for one, so long as it's not on your doorstep? That's one of the most ridiculous and self-serving arguments I've heard against abortion in a long time.
cynder wrote: » No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go Why would I be happy to see women kill the unborn babies down the road from me? if it comes to it I'll vote no again... I don't see the sense it making the choice to kill an unborn baby the easy way out. If a woman travels to the UK she must really want it gone and is not doing it on a whim.
cynder wrote: » No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go
Ickle Magoo wrote: » cynder wrote: » No one can stop them from going to the UK they choose to go You can criminalise every aspect of abortion - including travelling to procure an abortion or helping someone else travel to procure an abortion...the Irish people voted in a referendum in 1992 to protect the rights to travel and information...so it's not so much a case of anti-abortion as abortion nimbyism.
cynder wrote: » I personally can't criminalise anything.
