Abortion

cynder · 07-09-2012 04:26PM

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Bipolar Joe wrote: »

Not everyone gets a chance. We are not born equal.

We have a choice.

Firstly well done. You've done very well and clearly worked hard to get where you are. I commend you for it.

However I still don't agree with your argument. The end said "We all have a choice". Yes, we do so let other people make theirs. You might feel it's excuses but you don't know them. You can't decide for them.

We all have a choice, we can get an ak47 and shoot down 50 school kids, we can walk into a cinema and kill the citizens in there, we can join a terrorist group, we can steal from our neighbours, we can do whatever the hell we like because we are human yet our actions have repercussions and we have to live with those. Murder victims don't get a choice neither does the unborn baby.

Perhaps murders ask their victims do you want to die, I bet most say no, perhaps they ask how do you want to die? shall I rip you limb from limb, stick you with a long metal thing, or give you a suicide pill or suck your brain out? oh well sorry you don't have a choice....

If I decided to kill an unborn baby I would have to live with it. You can't undo it and It so happens to be illegal in this country, thankfully. Yet women still have abortions they choose to travel for that abortion.

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA. No other baby after that baby will be.the one they got rid of.

I wont ever pity them, or feel sorry for them, they made their choice, their own free will.

gozunda · 07-09-2012 04:29PM

cynder wrote: »

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....
....

Yes but the unborn cannot have any realisation of such things. What you have described is a projection of feelings / thoughts to that which is not capable of such preceptions. It may sound tough but the unborn wether miscarried or otherwise - wont ever know otherwise and cant as a consequence give a fig.

Someone once asked me if It really mattered to me whether I was born or not and my answer is that it wouldn't make one bit of difference either to myself or anyone else in the big scheme of things...

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 04:34PM

cynder wrote: »

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA.

Pretty naive to think only the ones who regret their decision want counselling.

Esoteric_ · 07-09-2012 04:44PM

TO be honest, the majority of the pro-life posts I see here (not all of them), are spouting the same rubbish that I see pushed into my face, along with pictures of a foetus, that I see in town all the time. As such, I have nothing further to add to this thread, except this -

I have a high chance of never carrying a child to full term, or even conceiving (about 20% chance that I will). If I were to somehow have an unexpected pregnancy, I would abort with no qualms. If I use two forms of contraception (which I do), and am also 80% likely to never conceive, I have done all I can in using two forms of contraception to prevent getting pregnant (bar giving up sex, but I'm not doing that

). If I get pregnant at any point in the future, I will abort and have no qualms about doing so.

cynder · 07-09-2012 04:45PM

gozunda wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....
....

Yes but the unborn cannot have any realisation of such things. What you have described is a projection of feelings / thoughts to that which is not capable of such preceptions. It may sound tough but the unborn wether miscarried or otherwise - wont ever know otherwise and cant as a consequence give a fig.

Someone once asked me if It really mattered to me whether I was born or not and my answer is that it wouldn't make one bit of difference either to myself or anyone else in the big scheme of things...

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

charlietheminxx · 07-09-2012 04:49PM

cynder wrote: »

I wont ever pity them, or feel sorry for them, they made their choice, their own free will.

I don't think your pity is what they're looking for.

Dyr · 07-09-2012 04:52PM

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

You're starting to remind me of the emotive nonsense that we'd be have pushed on us in school about abortion "oh no, I just found out that mammy does'nt want me, I'll never get to see the sunshine, or my brothers and sisters faces".

cynder · 07-09-2012 04:53PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

If they regret it they choose to have counseling. No amount of counseling will bring back that baby, it had its own DNA.

Pretty naive to think only the ones who regret their decision want counselling.

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 04:56PM

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

Oh come off it, life isn't that black and white.

gozunda · 07-09-2012 04:56PM

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

If a pregnancy does not come to term then no it is not necessarily "killed"...it is not born and there is a difference and yes You are right it does not have any ideas of what it is missing so therefore cant therefore have regrets about missing anything tbh

cynder wrote: »

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.
Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

Who knows, Perhaps, maybe, but it could turn out to be Hitlers twin brother or a scumbag just as well. Who knows - no-one knows what any foetus that is not carried to term "may" have become. It is irrelevant. In the big scheme of things (and I am refering to planetary or cosmic proportions here) it matters not one iota. In a hundred years the chances are that no one will even remember you or that you were ever alive...you will just some motes of dust swirling in the wind....

Esoteric_ · 07-09-2012 04:57PM

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Not everyone is 100% happy with their decision and are as callous about it as a lot of pro-life people here seem to think.

Actor · 07-09-2012 04:57PM

Jernal wrote: »

Incest makes me feel queasy and a little uneasy and being fully honest gay men kissing and holding hands used to too. (Thankfully, not any longer.) However, as much as I don't like the vibes I get from Incest, I don't think it should be outlawed or made illegal. As long as there's mutual consent among mature adults and no grooming or underhandedness involved, then who am I to tell them what is right or wrong? (Incest leading to reproduction is another matter - but it's still an ethically grey area.) I also don't drink. I find our drink culture reproachable at times but that doesn't mean I'm going to wish for the enforcement of an all out ban on alcohol. Even though I cannot fathom why you need to get pissed off your face to have a good time.

Yeah, I guess, you could say I'm liberal. Very liberal probably, but really I think that's the only reasonable stance to have on issues that get complicated and as it turns out abortion gets very complicated. If I ask anyone "What is life?" Nobody can give me a definite answer. To use the old cliché if life truly begins at conception why doesn't death begin at total decay? Why is that a person is classed as dead when there's still a hand, limbs, brain, organs present? Yet a foetus that doesn't even have any of these is suddenly alive? What happens if that foetus fails to develop a head? Was it alive but is now dead. Was it never alive. Surely an human entity without a head isn't classed as a person. Then you've got twinning, does one person somehow magically become two? And then what happens if the twins recombine? Should we charge one of the twins with murder?

There's too many grey areas that are constantly brushed past and that's why I see abortion purely as an issue on the denial of rights issue. I think it's unfortunate that the father gets so little say but really it is an issue between the rights of the foetus and the rights of the woman. She's definitely human and if we're to be consistent assuming the foetus is a person from conception then surely the rights should be equally spread at most? I don't get how the right to life trumps the rights of another to bodily integrity. To use an analogous situation suppose I kidnap you and a female stranger and in my mad maniacal moments surgically attach her to you so she is now your only means of existing. Should she be forced to keep you alive even though her quality of life is markedly affected? It's unfortunate that you'd have to die but I don't see why the woman should be forced against her will to sustain you for nine months. Now, I appreciate you can say the difference is I forcibly attached you to the woman's body and the foetus got no say in the matter. The women herself had sex so she knew the potential risks that were at stake but then what about rape? Why does the foetus's right trumps hers here and yet if you look elsewhere in society . . .
We don't force people to give blood, we don't force mandatory vaccinations on people so that those who can't get vaccinated actually have immunity from the herd, we don't force mandatory organ donations, yet here on nothing more than religious speculation,potentiality and fears, we force a woman into a course of action she might not necessarily have wanted.
All because we supposedly care about everyone's right to life? It's hypocritical. If life really is so precious why don't we show it everywhere where there's unquestionably life? Why is that only when the possibility for life is concerned we harp off all the things about rights, concerns, morality, ethics. My personal viewpoint, if the best a person can offer is that the foetus has the "potential" then I'm the potential overlord of this planet and you should regard me as such right now. A potential person isn't an actual person, the logic in the claim is ludicrous. And if you truly believe life begins at conception then you'd have to admit that when given the choice between saving a live newborn kitten (not a human, not ever going to be a person) or a vessel containing 100 embryos that can be readily implanted for gestation from a burning inferno, you'd save the vessel because that's would result in saving 100 lives. Even if the number of embryonic cells numbered in the billions, I'd save the kitten and I hate cats.

So even though abortion still makes me feel morally queasy at times*, I still think that choice should be there for everyone to make. It's too grey an area to blanketly declare a position on one way or the other. Until there's some consistency and reasonableness in someone's framework for either side I plan to remain neutral on the issue but by default that means I can't deny a woman her right to choose for herself.

*My position on it changes almost weekly. The question I keep asking myself at what point in the burning inferno scenario would I sacrifice the kitten? How old would the foetus have to be? Even that scenario is only really examining my intuitions. When I try to examine it rationally it gets even harder again. In all these cases though I still don't consider the foetus a person - so no, I don't think I'll ever consider it murder.

/lunchtime rant over.

What a strange, weird post.

Of course if you're pro gay marriage, a logical extension is that you're pro incestuous relationships. I'll commend you for being consistent up your logical dark alleyway.

Actor · 07-09-2012 04:59PM

LyndaMcL wrote: »

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

That's a fallacy. She could have had the child and continued her schooling a year later. Sounds like her parents coerced her into having an abortion (no doubt they paid for it) so as to avoid scandal amongst the neighbours.

LyndaMcL wrote: »

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Hardly surprising. She (and her parents) will live with this for the rest of their lives.

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:00PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

Oh come off it, life isn't that black and white.

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:02PM

cynder wrote: »

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

The IFPA are experts at brain-washing young women into believing that killing is a solution to an illegitimate pregnancy.

cynder · 07-09-2012 05:04PM

gozunda wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

If a pregnancy does not come to term then no it is not necessarily "killed"...it is not born and there is a difference and yes You are right it does not have any ideas of what it is missing so therefore cant therefore have regrets about missing anything tbh

cynder wrote: »

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.
Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

Who knows, Perhaps, maybe, but it could turn out to be Hitlers twin brother or a scumbag just as well. Who knows - no-one knows what any foetus that is not carried to term "may" have become. It is irrelevant. In the big scheme of things (and I am refering to planetary or cosmic proportions here) it matters not one iota. In a hundred years the chances are that no one will even remember you or that you were ever alive...you will just some motes of dust swirling in the wind....

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

Esoteric_ · 07-09-2012 05:04PM

Actor wrote: »

That's a fallacy. She could have had the child and continued her schooling a year later. Sounds like her parents coerced her into having an abortion (no doubt they paid for it) so as to avoid scandal amongst the neighbours.

Hardly surprising. She (and her parents) will live with this for the rest of their lives.

Actually, at the age of 16, there was no way she could continue her schooling later because firstly, she had no financial support at home, and if she waited til she became eligible for dole, she wouldn't be able to afford childcare to do her exams and go to college. She did the math before making her decision. Her parents did not pay for her abortion. Her father had no idea she was pregnant, and I gave her my savings to pay for it, then she told her mother that she had a miscarriage.

Silly assumptions to make.

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 05:05PM

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Thats got nothing to do with what I was talking about, but don't let me interrupt when you're on such a roll.

gozunda · 07-09-2012 05:07PM

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

Thats your belief and not everyone agrees....there is a lot more "to life" than just being born or even concieved. the old question "what is the meaning of life" is the one we as a species need to go out their and work out properly and not just presume we are someway special because we happen to exist and can reproduce...

Corkfeen · 07-09-2012 05:07PM

Actor wrote: »

It kinda is actually. Live begins at the moment of conception and ends when you're dead. There is no in-between.

That wasn't even what he was responding to. You seem to enter topics to simply twist posts and be entirely judgmental of those who choose to have an abortion and don't appear to give a legitimate response to criticisms of your posts.

Turtwig · 07-09-2012 05:08PM

cynder wrote: »

That's because it's killed before it gets the chance.

Big scheme of things, perhaps your great great grand kids might become president or find the cure to cancer. Who knows.

Perhaps one of the aborted babies out there would have gone on to find a cure for cancer but they weren't given a chance.. I'm sure the person who finds a cure to cancer would make a difference to millions upon millions of people's lives. If that so happened to be your childor grandchild or that person is a direct descendent of yours then yes in the big scheme of things you would be very important .

It might interest to know that between 60% of all embryos are aborted. (Some surveys put that as high as 80%).The fact you have had 2 (or more?) kids suggest you probably had between one to three abortions. The majority of women you see in the street everyday around has, or will at some point, also denied all these embryos that chance . . .

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:08PM

cynder wrote: »

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

What a shallow, nihilistic perspective on life. The pursuit of endless happiness is the ultimate pursuit of consumers living in consumer society. Did you ever stop to think why we exist and what our Creator has planned for us?

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 05:09PM

Actor wrote: »

What a shallow, nihilistic perspective on life. The pursuit of endless happiness is the ultimate pursuit of consumers living in consumer society. Did you ever stop to think why we exist and what our Creator has planned for us?

There it is folks!!

cynder · 07-09-2012 05:10PM

LyndaMcL wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

If your 100% happy with the choice you made, why would you need counseling.

Sure your happy with the decision, and happy with the result.

As has already been pointed out, not everyone is 100% happy with the decision.

I had a friend who got pregnant while still in 5th year. She used a condom, but it split. Got the morning after pill, it failed. She had an abortion because she was doing brilliantly in school and had nobody to financially or emotionally support her, and would not be able to continue her schooling.

She wants children, and hated that the had an abortion, but would not have been able to continue her schooling if she had a child, and if anyone has ever experienced being in a care home, it's apparently terrible.

She did not receive counselling, but ended up extremely depressed and in counselling several years later.

Not everyone is 100% happy with their decision and are as callous about it as a lot of pro-life people here seem to think.

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Turtwig · 07-09-2012 05:10PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

There it is folks!!

But there was no mention of sodomy that time.

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:11PM

Jernal wrote: »

It might interest to know that between 60% of all embryos are aborted. (Some surveys put that as high as 80%).The fact you have had 2 (or more?) kids suggest you probably had between one to three abortions. The majority of women you see in the street everyday around has, or will at some point, also denied all these embryos that chance . . .

Maybe in the UK/USA (where being a black unborn child is particularly dangerous). But think of all the crime that's being supressed! (so say militant pro-choicers...) Thankfully here in Ireland, abortion is a crime, and the figures aren't quite so startling.

Mickeroo · 07-09-2012 05:11PM

cynder wrote: »

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Or, just possibly, her situation was a bit different to yours. Just throwing that out there as daft as it sounds.

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:12PM

Mickeroo wrote: »

There it is folks!!

As a moderator, I'd have expected you to come up with something more deep and meaningful. Then again, this is AH and you probably feel right at home alongside like-minded goons.

gozunda · 07-09-2012 05:12PM

cynder wrote: »

But the here and now matters, to me, to my kids,The day to day interactions. I couldn't give a s**t about when I'm dead and turn to dust. I'll be dead but at least I lived, found love, had fun, lived my life to the fullest. Life today does matter, making my kids happy, keeping them healthy letting them have a good life before they too turn to dust.

Well then you wont care if you were never born either...and when you are dead, you wont care either! We are genitically programmed to want to reproduce so your thoughts there are fairly understandable I suppose, however if you insist that all the products conception are sacred or special then this is when things start to become a little absurd....

Actor · 07-09-2012 05:13PM

cynder wrote: »

As I said I was a teen had my child, did my schooling from 22-24, its not impossible.

Of course I bet this wasn't explained to her.

Sounds to me like it's her parents with the most blood on their hands.

Abortion

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