Abortion

Khannie wrote: »

It's a harsh and sensationalist term to use, so I can only assume you know that when you use it. It's just like "anti-choice". I'm not in favour of enforced pregnancy at all and I'm sure most people who dislike abortion dislike the notion of forcing pregnancy on anyone. It's not like I'm shoving a fertilised egg into somebodies womb though. It's not enforced that way. I'd much prefer if you used a less sensationalist term tbh.

When I was a youngfella ridin' like the clappers I was well aware that any resulting pregnancy was going to result in a baby. I took that on the chin and I was bloody careful because of it. There would have been nothing enforced about it if a pregnancy happened. Two consenting people would have made a baby that they didn't want. The limited number of people that I slept with (mostly I had reasonably long relationships when I was a youngfella) I'm confident would have gone to term, despite neither of us wanting the baby (and I did have close calls).

Yes accidents happen. Yes sometimes people find themselves in horrible situations (pregnant from rape etc.). My belief though is that some, possibly large, percentage of people would be a shed load less careful knowing that "ah sure the option of an abortion is there". I was absolutely shocked (and to be honest sickened) by some of the statistics on abortion that I've seen for other countries in this thread. I have experienced first hand the difference in how people in other countries perceive a pregnancy and how flippantly they perceive abortion and it is my hope that that mentality never enters this country.

You weren't in that position though. A baby didn't result. You or your girlfriend(s) at the time didn't have that call to make.

I agree abortion can be abused in other countries. No-one is denying that. But just like other things mentioned, that would be a small minority. Most women having one would be doing so for genuine reasons. They can get an abortion anyway, why can't they get it in their home country? We need to provide support for these women. Bring in stringent measures by all means, but bring it in. Whether you agree with it or not it is happening every week to irish women. We need to accept this and plan for it going forward.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

Khannie wrote: »

It's a harsh and sensationalist term to use, so I can only assume you know that when you use it. It's just like "anti-choice". I'm not in favour of enforced pregnancy at all and I'm sure most people who dislike abortion dislike the notion of forcing pregnancy on anyone. It's not like I'm shoving a fertilised egg into somebodies womb though. It's not enforced that way. I'd much prefer if you used a less sensationalist term tbh.

When I was a youngfella ridin' like the clappers I was well aware that any resulting pregnancy was going to result in a baby. I took that on the chin and I was bloody careful because of it. There would have been nothing enforced about it if a pregnancy happened. Two consenting people would have made a baby that they didn't want. The limited number of people that I slept with (mostly I had reasonably long relationships when I was a youngfella) I'm confident would have gone to term, despite neither of us wanting the baby (and I did have close calls).

Yes accidents happen. Yes sometimes people find themselves in horrible situations (pregnant from rape etc.). My belief though is that some, possibly large, percentage of people would be a shed load less careful knowing that "ah sure the option of an abortion is there". I was absolutely shocked (and to be honest sickened) by some of the statistics on abortion that I've seen for other countries in this thread. I have experienced first hand the difference in how people in other countries perceive a pregnancy and how flippantly they perceive abortion and it is my hope that that mentality never enters this country.

You weren't in that position though. A baby didn't result. You or your girlfriend(s) at the time didn't have that call to make.

I agree abortion can be abused in other countries. No-one is denying that. But just like other things mentioned, that would be a small minority. Most women having one would be doing so for genuine reasons. They can get an abortion anyway, why can't they get it in their home country? We need to provide support for these women. Bring in stringent measures by all means, but bring it in. Whether you agree with it or not it is happening every week to irish women. We need to accept this and plan for it going forward.

Why do we need to accept this? Just because people murder people every day doesn't mean we have to accept it, plan for it going forward.

What is a genuine reason?

No wanting a baby is not a genuine reason. No to me anyway. The baby having down syndrome is not a genuine reason. Not to me. Having a girl instead of a boy is not a genuine reason.

Tbh I think most women having one, do not have genuine reasons.

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

cynder wrote: »

Why do we need to accept this? Just because people murder people every day doesn't mean we have to accept it, plan for it going forward.

What is a genuine reason?

No wanting a baby is not a genuine reason. No to me anyway. The baby having down syndrome is not a genuine reason. Not to me. Having a girl instead of a boy is not a genuine reason.

Tbh I think most women having one, do not have genuine reasons.

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

Plenty of genuine reasons have been mentioned;

• If it puts the mother's life at risk
• If the baby won't survive outside the womb
• If the mother is an addict
• Personal circumstances (you cannot afford a baby, are too young, are in a violent relationship etc etc)
  As examples.

It's not about if it is a genuine reason to you. These women are not accountable to you. Certainly your opinion has merit, and you're free to encourage other options but these women are travelling to England and having them anyway. Away from home and support.

Who are you to deny them that?

Your last point is incredible ignorant. Not everyone shares your personal moral code, nor have they been brainwashed. You think they should suffer indefinitely because they made a choice you, and other people of your viewpoint, don't agree with?

Khannie wrote: »

Not true in fact but I wont go into the details.

I made it through 15 years of regular sex with zero resulting babies and zero abortions. It's not that hard.

I've answered some of your questions in response to another poster. Just seems odd you contradict yourself here.... not going to press for details obviously, that would be disrespectful.

You're lucky. I'm lucky. But not everyone is. The most failsafe contraception statistically is the implanon at 0.03% failure. It still isn't 0% and that doesn't suit everyone. Most contraceptions have a much higher fail rate.

Deleted User wrote: »

The point was simply that there is not a 1:1 mapping of morality and law. Many things we call immoral are not enshrined in law nor should they be. Lying or cheating on your girlfriend for example. The post I was replying to you claimed "You think it's morally wrong? Enshrine it in law." and all I am doing is pointing out that this is not always true.

The blasphemy law is another good example of this. Many people have religious values that tell them blasphemy is not just immoral but in some cases the worst thing you can possibly do (such as some religions opinion on blaspheming the holy spirit).

Yet there are many good reasons to resist having a Blasphemy law and to work towards having our one removed. Some things simply should not be law just because some peoples personal morality is against it.

Abortion is also on that list for me. You do not want one then by all means do not have one. If someone wants to tell others they can not have one however I hope they can wheel out better arguments than appealing to their own personal subjective morality.

Khannie wrote: »

At what point is it a child in a moral or ethical sense for you?

Never an easy question to answer and everyone gives different answers. My own attempt is here.

Safe to say however that a fetus with zero consciousness, subjective experience, sentience and so on is likely not going to be it for me and everything I have read in the scientific literature would place a fetus before 20 weeks as certainly being in that category. As such I must say such a fetus has as much moral and ethical concern to me as a rock or a table leg and I see no reason for making abortion of such illegal.

Khannie wrote: »

Sure it's not a human if you call it a fetus. At what point is it a child in a moral or ethical sense for you?

I think Jernal summed it up pretty well, in amongst the incest fetish stuff.

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

Why do we need to accept this? Just because people murder people every day doesn't mean we have to accept it, plan for it going forward.

What is a genuine reason?

No wanting a baby is not a genuine reason. No to me anyway. The baby having down syndrome is not a genuine reason. Not to me. Having a girl instead of a boy is not a genuine reason.

Tbh I think most women having one, do not have genuine reasons.

We do not need to support them, they make a choice live with it,it it's that hard to make then they know it's wrong but they brainwash themselves to make them think it's right.. If you continue to tell yourself something over and over you believe it.

Plenty of genuine reasons have been mentioned;

• If it puts the mother's life at risk
• If the baby won't survive outside the womb
• If the mother is an addict
• Personal circumstances (you cannot afford a baby, are too young, are in a violent relationship etc etc)
  As examples.

It's not about if it is a genuine reason to you. These women are not accountable to you. Certainly your opinion has merit, and you're free to encourage other options but these women are travelling to England and having them anyway. Away from home and support.

Who are you to deny them that?

Your last point is incredible ignorant. Not everyone shares your personal moral code, nor have they been brainwashed. You think they should suffer indefinitely because they made a choice you, and other people of your viewpoint, don't agree with?

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

Do you know much about addiction? Have you seen a baby born addicted to drugs? Or a baby with Foetal Alcohol Syndrome?

Do you know much about violent relationships? No offence but it doesn't seem like it.

No we shouldn't kill kids, but a women can choose not to HAVE a child, and bring it into a life of poverty and deprevation.

How many people have climbed out of poverty? Life is what you make it, you can have a child in poverty and come out the other end, it's not impossible.

Even when the child is grown up they can life a very fulfilling life. Who is to say what would happen 2 years, 10 years 15 years down the line, killing the baby before it even gas a chance.


My dad was an alcoholic, I only know too well about addiction.

I saw my mother's head get smashed against the wall over and over, saw her punched, bruised and bloodied...

She had an abortion at 19, she told me about it when I was pregnant at 18, her mother and older sister forced her to do it because she was unwed. She told me I could have one and she would support me, I thanked her and said no. the baby had a different dad to my dad.

B0jangles wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

The only reason one would suffer is if they knew what they did was wrong and the guilt was overwhelming.

Why not prevent the wrong from taking place, in the first place ?

Too young, isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse.

Violent relationship isn't a genuine reason it's an excuse, one should leave the violent relationship.

Not enough money isn't a genuine reason ( in Ireland) it's an excuse. Plenty of people have kids and don't earn that much or are on the bread line, doesn't mean we should kill their kids.

Being an addict is also an excuse. Get clean ....

Putting mothers life at risk is a reason,

You seem to have a profound lack of empathy for actual people who have actual problems and yet you seem to care deeply for the potential person that a zygote or fetus represents.

I find your position puzzling tbh.

The baby doesn't get a choice, it doesn't get a chance, it doesn't get to taste the air, it doesn't get to live, love, learn, have fun, have kids of its own, see it's grandkids, it only gets to die....

People can turn their situations around, take a different path, a unborn baby doesn't get a chance.


Speaking from someone who has seen hell and come out the other end....

charlietheminxx wrote: »

cynder wrote: »

How many people have climbed out of poverty? Life is what you make it, you can have a child in poverty and come out the other end, it's not impossible.

Even when the child is grown up they can life a very fulfilling life. Who is to say what would happen 2 years, 10 years 15 years down the line, killing the baby before it even gas a chance.


My dad was an alcoholic, I only know too well about addiction.

I saw my mother's head get smashed against the wall over and over, saw her punched, bruised and bloodied...

She had an abortion at 19, she told me about it when I was pregnant at 18, her mother and older sister forced her to do it because she was unwed. She told me I could have one and she would support me, I thanked her and said no. the baby had a different dad to my dad.

I find it odd that you said people should just leave an abusive relationship when you have witnessed one that bad first hand. You must know it isn't that simple.

You made your choice but you would have had support if you had chosen abortion too. Not every woman doing the secret trip to England can say the same.

There are places out there that help women get out of abusive relationships killing the baby and staying in the relationship isn't the answer.

There are injunctions you can get, aborting the baby is an excuse.

Abortion didn't enter my head, if I did do it why would I have needed support?

My daughter asked me what would I do if she got pregnant at 16, I told her I would take care of the baby.

My mother told me that if my baby was disabled that she would take care of it and I could live my life, I said no thanks mom the baby is my life, I'm a mom that's what moms do, make sacrifices for their kids.

Zulu wrote: »

I don't understand, what's wrong with a woman?

I find it interesting that you'd choose to play the "sexist" card while completely dismissing the father. I guess men don't count, except when they are used to represent the "she is only a woman after all" attitude. Frankly this speaks volumes about your own prejudices.

That was irony btw. Well without woman there would be no place for the foetus to come to term in the first place - where you going to put it - in a box?

No card being played or otherwise. The reference is to the responsibility of women who give birth - they are primarily responsible for a child born to the first degree.

Dont understand your point about prejudice tbh unless you are indicating that men in some way legally bear an equel burden in our society - which they dont in fact. maybe that should be fixed first before we go around telling people what they should or should not do when only they can make that decision based on what they know.

Zulu wrote: »

Is there a case, at all, where a living person who can not speak for themselves is assumed to want to die by the state? AFAIK, the state tends to take the position that life is to be protected, and for good reason.

Who wishes to die or live by the state? Life is not protected per se - rather the committing of an criminal offence against a person is legislated for. Their may be some grand statement in their about the life of the unborn - but it is not expressed directly. We dont have Capital Punishment here either and that is actual death by the state.

Zulu wrote: »

Indeed. I can't understand how someone can take the position: well I don't agree with it, but it's not my choice!

Frankly it's your civic duty to stand against what you believe is wrong. It's your democratic responsibility as a member of a society to vote for what you believe.

I see it as killing defenseless people at a lower stage of development. I wouldn't like the execution of adolescents, or pre-adolescents children, nor children, or toddlers, or infants, or babies would are born premature, or those about to be born. So I can't justify killing those 4 weeks before birth, or 8 weeks, or 16 weeks. I err on the side of caution (considering a life is at stake).

So if humans are not exceptional (ie sacred) what is so precious that every conception must be finalised at the insistance of the law? What about other animals? Those that only have a 5% difference or less in their DNA - apes, monkies etc - surely these can be defined as "at a lower stage of development". What about other sentient beings? What makes us so special, its not like there isnt enough of us around! So what about woman who have miscarriages before term? should they prosecuted because they failed to hang on to the result of conception and in your logic life? Where a foetus is not independent of the mother and not capable of survival then it is not "killing" or do you wish to stigmatise all those who fail to carry a pregnacy thru to term as killers.

I am putting forward these arguments as my means of looking further into perceptions of human morality and how we see ourselves in relation to position as the dominant species on the planet. I do believe that much of this "sacred" view of ourselves over other species comes from religion in that we have become conditioned to see some reflection of a supreme being....