The future of airsoft retail in Ireland

jayod30 · 30-08-2012 12:28AM

Leftyflip wrote: »

Nobody is...
Customs have a job to do, that's the end of it.

Eh yes, I know that. But the problem is, up until this point they haven't been and now there is a major problem. And the fact that they have left this slide for so long, they have set a precedent for themselves so as Steve said this would have a factor in any case made against what is happening. I'm not sure about yourself, or anyone else for that matter, but I would hope this surely isn't "the end of it"

TommyKnocker · 30-08-2012 08:09AM

As a relative new comer to this sport can I ask what may be a stupid question?

As I understand it, the issue being discussed is the confiscation of a shipment of AEGs from Airsofteire for being found over the legal irish limit when tested by customs/gardai on arrival. Is that correct?

People have mentioned having the items shipped to a bonded warehouse where the downgrade would be carried out under the watchful eye of customs/gardai.

Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

TheDoc · 30-08-2012 09:41AM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

So if you pay €5 for a downgrade, it comes to you, not downgraded, and you put in €7 of parts and labour, bringing the total cost to between €14-15 extra for a rifle. And guess who ends up paying for that in the long run?

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

TommyKnocker · 30-08-2012 10:23AM

TheDoc wrote: »

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

So if you pay €5 for a downgrade, it comes to you, not downgraded, and you put in €7 of parts and labour, bringing the total cost to between €14-15 extra for a rifle. And guess who ends up paying for that in the long run?

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

The_ChiefDUB · 30-08-2012 12:19PM

For the information of all, the IAA has issued a statement on this subject which can be read on the IAA website at http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=1521

TheDoc · 30-08-2012 01:15PM

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

No, they cant

Airsoft is illegal in China. These companies operate under the safe criteria that

A) You are half way accross the world

You are trading in items which are illegal in the host nation.

Obviously to maintain business, you would hope suppliers would honour services paid for, but its very common to get scammed and have **** all followup.

You can search back through the years here (or quickly find google search results) , to read retailers outlining how they have paid for tens of thousands worth of stock for it never to be shipped, having to add additional costs onto orders to cover bribes, and delays in stock due to crackdowns on factories by police.

All, very easily found and publicly viewable

I think alot of people forget the fact these items are mostly built in China, where it is illegal (unless that has changed in the last year or two)

ricka · 30-08-2012 01:37PM

OzCam wrote: »

Oh my gosh! People actually doing their jobs! Whatever next?
That would require people in the Irish airsoft industry to set aside their mutual distrust and work together in their shared interest. Dream on.

OzCam wrote: »

I suggested the idea of a bonded warehouse almost three years ago. I was laughed at.
Sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead of the game. Where there's no will, there's no way.
.

Look, if I'm to be honest, I really don't see where you're coming from...what distrust is there in Irish airsoft? There certainly isn't among retailers, as clearly shown for the IAA EGM etc.

Sometimes suggestions are noted, and not acted upon at the time due to there being no need. However there is now a clear need for something such as a bonded warehouse, but it is completely irrespective who came up with the idea. It is a good idea, and we should work together to enact it.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

As a relative new comer to this sport can I ask what may be a stupid question?
Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

We have had all the motors removed from our rifles before shipment for some time now.
Recently another retailer was asked to come to Dublin Port with a crono to prove everything was under one joule.
For this reason I dont feel making the AEG incapable of firing is covering us anymore.

TheDoc wrote: »

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

Absolutely the case

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

You would expect so however I doubt it.
But much more importantly, who cares if you're about to the prosecuted for a firearms offence

The_ChiefDUB wrote: »

For the information of all, the IAA has issued a statement on this subject which can be read on the IAA website at http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=1521

They're now active and we must all get behind them.It must be a unified voice and people must forget their past grievences

hightower1 · 30-08-2012 10:32PM

Does anyone have any information on Irish spending from retailers per annum Vs other countries of Irelands size etc? I see people saying we are a blip on the radar but is there any evidence of this?

If so then why dont the major retailers get together and order their stock at a set time agreed on by them as one large order. With the buying power of the major retailers combined surely the suppliers would pay more attention to actually performing downgrades if thats the logic behind why they may not do them for us.

Should the retailers be worried about future stock being seen by others then a 3rd party like the IAA could act as the buyer?

thermo · 30-08-2012 11:09PM

hightower1 wrote: »

If so then why dont the major retailers get together and order their stock at a set time agreed on by them as one large order.

not really an option as the two largest retailers dont shop in the same places, hobbyairsoft are the cybergun agent and as i understand it mia are the asg agent.

perhaps the retailers could partner up with a retailer "up north" have the gear sent there to their warehouse and have them downgraded there by local staff (of the partner company) or by their own staff they send up?

OzCam · 30-08-2012 11:25PM

ricka wrote: »

...what distrust is there in Irish airsoft? There certainly isn't among retailers, as clearly shown for the IAA EGM etc.

Where, IIRC, a grand total of two retailers showed up. It's a start I suppose, but it's hardly inspiring.

The problem with a bonded warehouse is that the Firearms Act(s) don't have any provision for it and there is no chance whatsoever of the government reopening that can of very large and very expensive worms in the forseeable future.

Forging a relationship with the DoJ, Customs and Gardai strong enough for them to get behind an idea like a bonded warehouse would take years of work.

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

ricka · 31-08-2012 12:01AM

OzCam wrote: »

Where, IIRC, a grand total of two retailers showed up. It's a start I suppose, but it's hardly inspiring.

The problem with a bonded warehouse is that the Firearms Act(s) don't have any provision for it and there is no chance whatsoever of the government reopening that can of very large and very expensive worms in the forseeable future.

Forging a relationship with the DoJ, Customs and Gardai strong enough for them to get behind an idea like a bonded warehouse would take years of work.

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

You're wrong there.There was a number of retailers in attendance.
SG Airsoft, Airsofteire, MIA, Hobbyairsoft, Strikearms and Enniscorthy Airsoft.
A number of of other retailers were unable to attend but were informed by phone over the following days.
In fact only one retailer in the country that was contacted was unhappy with the proceedings.

On the bonded warehouse issue, I accept what you're saying and agree its unlikely to happen.However we should explore every option and debate every possibility

TheDoc · 31-08-2012 10:10AM

OzCam wrote: »

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

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gerrowadat · 31-08-2012 10:16AM

TheDoc wrote: »

sliabh · 31-08-2012 10:21AM

thermo wrote: »

perhaps the retailers could partner up with a retailer "up north" have the gear sent there to their warehouse and have them downgraded there by local staff (of the partner company) or by their own staff they send up?

This one could be a sensible idea. There still will be a cost impact, but its something that should work with existing law. Will it fly with the VCRA?

Lemming · 31-08-2012 01:42PM

sliabh wrote: »

This one could be a sensible idea. There still will be a cost impact, but its something that should work with existing law. Will it fly with the VCRA?

First port of call for retailers: UKARA. You may or may not need to become a registered member and I should imagine that the idea is one far from ever having crossed their collective minds. Might end up also needing to have words with the powers that be within Northern Ireland.

TheDoc · 31-08-2012 03:31PM

Lemming wrote: »

First port of call for retailers: UKARA. You may or may not need to become a registered member and I should imagine that the idea is one far from ever having crossed their collective minds. Might end up also needing to have words with the powers that be within Northern Ireland.

Would there not be essentially a double tax?

Import tax into the North and then further tax for when they are declaring crossing the border?

If there is even a hint of " we are just gonna schneak em in" from the north, scrap it entirely.Last thing we need is a headline of a truck full of RIF's "smuggled" into the country.

Lemming · 31-08-2012 03:45PM

TheDoc wrote: »

Would there not be essentially a double tax?

Import tax into the North and then further tax for when they are declaring crossing the border?

Why would there be a double tax? Point of entry for the EU is the UK in this case. The Irish government can't then just arbitrarily slap another tax on for the sake of it because that violates the whole principle of free trade within the EU.

Witcher · 31-08-2012 03:49PM

Ideally there would be some type of short term solution agreed to with the DOJ like a bonded warehouse as suggested until retailers could lobby for an allowance for guns to be over and downgraded prior to sale in their own premises in the long term but realistically both of those ideas will probably never happen and things will plod along as they are now.

TheDoc · 31-08-2012 03:57PM

Lemming wrote: »

Why would there be a double tax? Point of entry for the EU is the UK in this case. The Irish government can't then just arbitrarily slap another tax on for the sake of it because that violates the whole principle of free trade within the EU.

Thought there would be a differentiation in tax that would be required to be paid.

Also, there is no guarantee, that once declared, they wont be taken anyway for testing in the South.

I bet there was a few people who forget about the declaring part

There is a difference going up north to grab an Imac on the cheap, and bringing in a few hundreds rifles in a truck

OzCam · 31-08-2012 09:21PM

ricka, I checked the AGM minutes and you're right - there were 5 retailers a that meeting (one of whom I believe has closed down since). I stand corrected, which is always a good thing.

So has there been any progress with this since January? If you could get those retailers along with the other 10 or so retailers in the country together to do some actual, y'know, work instead of sitting around chairsofting and bickering that would be just wonderful.

I was thinking about the Northern Ireland idea a bit more, and there could be a problem: the power limit in NI is also 1J. It's different from England, Wales & Scotland because the limit up North was defined in local legislation which predates the VCRA. ASI_Casper has quoted the relevant legislation on this board before, you can search for it if you need it.

Blay, unfortunately the "allowance" idea would require a change to the Firearms Act. Highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of this government.

Anyway, isn't it up to the importers to find a supplier who will provide product which complies with Irish law? The Italians seem to have worked it out - they have a 1J limit too. Maybe our importers could ask them how it's done?

There seems to be a market opportunity for someone to supply gearboxes with 1J springs to Irish retailers. Getting one gun downgraded at the factory is problematical, but I bet they'd be only too happy to put on an overtime shift to make a batch of 10,000 gearboxes with M90 (or whatever) springs in them.

ricka · 31-08-2012 10:22PM

OzCam wrote: »

ricka, I checked the AGM minutes and you're right - there were 5 retailers a that meeting (one of whom I believe has closed down since). I stand corrected, which is always a good thing.

So has there been any progress with this since January? If you could get those retailers along with the other 10 or so retailers in the country together to do some actual, y'know, work instead of sitting around chairsofting and bickering that would be just wonderful.

Yes there were six(one arrived late).The four largest retailers in the country at that time were there, but as so many have wondered before me , why am I geting involved in this with you.
You made the assertion that everyone in Airsoft Retail is in constant bickering and conflict.
I say to you, this is not the case.You're painting an illusion, to what end I don't know, but please I really don't want to continue with this.

To everyone else here, a lot of work is going on behind the scences with both the IAA and our individual suppliers.
We'll keep you guys informed of any further developments

OzCam · 31-08-2012 10:37PM

ricka wrote: »

You're painting an illusion, to what end I don't know,

I'm not. I want to see action, not the usual unsubstantiated claims of "work behind the scenes".

Kashkai · 31-08-2012 11:17PM

I'm just curious as to what type of bickering you are referring to? In my admittedly short time in airsoft, I've found the four retailers I've dealt with all sound individuals and none of them had a bad word to say about any other airsoft supplier. In two instances, when two of the retailers hadn't got what I was looking for in stock, they referred me onto one of their competitors. If they were truly bickering as you say, then why send business elsewhere to one of their competitors?

Back on topic, my Dad was a docker in Dublin Port for 40 years and that's why I know of the existence of the bonded warehouses for goods that are awaiting clearance by Customs. It is a viable idea, one to which I'm sure Customs would be amenable to, as you would be on their turf, playing by their rules while under their direct supervision. So modifying the AEG's under their supervision and then doing a chrono test to prove they are compliant with the sub 1 joule rule would be all 100% above board.

Carrying out this work in the UK and then shipping the AEG's into Ireland would probably still end up with shipments being tested anyway as Customs operate on the "guilty until proven innocent" rule:rolleyes:. This would just be two delays, instead of one, i.e. delay in UK getting guns modded and second delay in Customs here. That's not a good business practice for the retailers who have had to fork out for a shipment, and then be out of pocket while they await their goods.

ricka · 31-08-2012 11:18PM

OzCam wrote: »

I'm not. I want to see action, not the usual unsubstantiated claims of "work behind the scenes".

We all do,so we're agreed on one thing

whydave · 31-08-2012 11:23PM

ricka wrote: »

To everyone else here, a lot of work is going on behind the scences with both the IAA and our individual suppliers.
We'll keep you guys informed of any further developments

Great news good to see the IAA back in the race !
this is really great news,do you have a time table, to stop the panic (ie stop me from ordering like mad )?

David

Steve · 31-08-2012 11:31PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

I'm just curious as to what type of bickering you are referring to?

Dave, airsofters are probably amongst the most friendly and helpful people you will ever meet in real life, however, give them a keyboard and internet connection and it's a bit like entering the twilight zone..

(Not directing that to anyone in particular there, it's a well known fact)

@ all those contributing here, please try to be constructive and help find a solution rather than dissect the past and point out faults. Who knows, there might just be a good idea lurking in the wings waiting to be found.
A positive outcome here can only benefit the entire community.

Kashkai · 01-09-2012 11:38AM

Steve wrote: »

Dave, airsofters are probably amongst the most friendly and helpful people you will ever meet in real life, however, give them a keyboard and internet connection and it's a bit like entering the twilight zone.. (Not directing that to anyone in particular there, it's a well known fact).

Everyone I've met through airsoft whether it's in the shops, skirmishing or getting a gun mended, have all proved to be dead sound individuals. I spent an hour chatting with a guy in an airsoft store yesterday (you know who you are:D) and would have stayed longer except my baby son was getting bored. I've been given food and water by a guy I'd never met before at a skirmishing session when I forgot to bring anything for myself (BDU, Tac Vest, Ammo, Guns yes but no food:rolleyes:) and another guy spent a week trying to fix my nephews broken M4 and wouldn't take a penny for his time. So yes, I'd agree completely that it's a great community to be part of. Pity that this goodwill can't be harnessed in some way to overcome the current difficulties with Customs.

422nd · 01-09-2012 01:11PM

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Everyone I've met through airsoft whether it's in the shops, skirmishing or getting a gun mended, have all proved to be dead sound individuals. I spent an hour chatting with a guy in an airsoft store yesterday (you know who you are:D) and would have stayed longer except my baby son was getting bored. I've been given food and water by a guy I'd never met before at a skirmishing session when I forgot to bring anything for myself (BDU, Tac Vest, Ammo, Guns yes but no food:rolleyes:) and another guy spent a week trying to fix my nephews broken M4 and wouldn't take a penny for his time. So yes, I'd agree completely that it's a great community to be part of. Pity that this goodwill can't be harnessed in some way to overcome the current difficulties with Customs.

I just want to second all of that. I'm only a few months into the sport now but I have never heard an airsofter speak one bad word about another player, site or retailer. Yes it's a predominantly male sport so ego's may rise now and then, but only ever in a competitive way, which only helps the sport thrive, in my opinion. So I know we have the passion for our sport to find a way through this, it's only a question of whether or not we have the man power. It's gonna take a lot of voices to convince the powers that be to listen.

AirsoftEire.com · 04-09-2012 07:45PM

OzCam wrote: »

So has there been any progress with this since January? If you could get those retailers along with the other 10 or so retailers in the country together to do some actual, y'know, work instead of sitting around chairsofting and bickering that would be just wonderful.

I was thinking about the Northern Ireland idea a bit more, and there could be a problem: the power limit in NI is also 1J. It's different from England, Wales & Scotland because the limit up North was defined in local legislation which predates the VCRA. ASI_Casper has quoted the relevant legislation on this board before, you can search for it if you need it.

Blay, unfortunately the "allowance" idea would require a change to the Firearms Act. Highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of this government.

Anyway, isn't it up to the importers to find a supplier who will provide product which complies with Irish law? The Italians seem to have worked it out - they have a 1J limit too. Maybe our importers could ask them how it's done?

There seems to be a market opportunity for someone to supply gearboxes with 1J springs to Irish retailers. Getting one gun downgraded at the factory is problematical, but I bet they'd be only too happy to put on an overtime shift to make a batch of 10,000 gearboxes with M90 (or whatever) springs in them.

There has been no progress since the last AGM. Of the retailers that attended, we agreed on leaving that there was little point in pushing the membership/promotion of the IAA etc until a new committee was in place. The fact that so little was achieved in the two-odd years before that was reason enough to wait until the new lads came in, who have the necessary skill and backgrounds to push the IAA forwards.
I expect from this point onwards, every retailer affiliated will be delighted to strongly push IAA membership (as the IAA see fit), whether this means accepting new members instore, processing fees, accepting applications online, creating an IAA section on their website etc etc. Retailers represent the frontline of the industry and there should be no reason why retailers should not be able to do this.

In regards the Northern Ireland warehouse idea, i'm not so sure it would work well either. As soon as cross-border/international importations start, I can only imagine the can of worms it will open in regards procedure. I mean this in terms of how a sourthern Irish retailer gets a UKARA licence with a southern address, how we'd be able to import over 1 joule like you mentioned, how we'd import to Northern Ireland without the shipment passing through the mainland UK (this was a big problem for us before), etc etc.

Also, to be honest there is not a HUGE problem in getting the manufacturers to downgrade guns, or build them with M90 springs. G&G have been fantastic with us; absolutely everything is arriving under 1 joule and we haven't had a single problem with an overpowered AEG in the two years we've been dealing with them. However they require us to order a certain amount every year and to be honest its tough keeping the prices down, as if we order less, the price goes up.

As Richard has said, the likes of G&P take your money to downgrade and then don't finish the job.
Classic Army were requiring a €20,000 minimum order I believe to have AEGs predowngraded, but the main problem with them was the wait, up to 3-4 months in some cases.
VFCs aren't much of a problem as long as you have a decent distributor like we do who takes care of the downgrading.

The biggest problem of them all, outside of the manufacturers that you cannot deal with for whatever reason, are the distributors. They make up the bulk of the suppliers out there and everything is made for 1.2j+. Most just want to get the stuff in, and then straight back out with minimum fuss which is understandable. Having to employ someone to downgrade a small order for a Dublin retailer, then another from someone in Louth, then a few weeks later for Cork makes little financial sense to them.

AEGs aren't too much of a problem, its when you bring snipers, and gas pistols, co2 pistols, shotguns etc that are over 1 joule into the equation that things become messy for the distributors.

Steve

OzCam · 04-09-2012 10:05PM

AirsoftEire.com wrote: »

In regards the Northern Ireland warehouse idea, i'm not so sure it would work well either. As soon as cross-border/international importations start, I can only imagine the can of worms it will open in regards procedure. I mean this in terms of how a sourthern Irish retailer gets a UKARA licence with a southern address, how we'd be able to import over 1 joule like you mentioned, how we'd import to Northern Ireland without the shipment passing through the mainland UK (this was a big problem for us before), etc etc.

Thanks for your post. I need to make one clarification because someone along the line seems to have misinterpreted something.

The Northern Ireland idea I suggested was that some cooperative of Irish importers could set up a warehouse in the north, downgrade the guns there and then import them under the 1J limit into the Republic.

Setting up an address in NI for the UKARA registration, if it's needed, could be part of the process of setting up the downgrade facility.

Importing into NI without passing through the offshore island - either physically or legally - is not feasible. They share the same Customs authority.

There are other practical reasons why it probably wouldn't work. It was just an idea.

The future of airsoft retail in Ireland

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