The future of airsoft retail in Ireland

AirsoftEire.com

Hey everyone.
Just thought it was about time we created a thread about airsoft retail in Ireland and how it currently hangs by a thread.

To those who are not aware, we had a shipment from a supplier seized some weeks ago by customs in Dublin port. This is from a supplier we have dealt with on a monthly basis for the last 5 years.

A customs official contacted Gardaí in the city centre stating that there were items over 1 joule of energy in the shipment, as stated by the retail packaging. Gardaí send various RIFs for testing with ballistics and consequently seized all RIFs they believe to be over 1 joule, and the rest of the shipment was released to us. I do not want to state how much value there is in these seized RIFs, but take it to be a substantial amount.

Just to state that we are still operating 100% and everything we stock, and are currently selling, is absolutely under 1 joule of energy. If we were a smaller operation, a loss of over 100 guns would be crippling.

Whilst we expect no sympathy regarding this incident, as we are as aware of the law as any one else, this impacts every airsofter in the country.

Why? Because this incident goes to show that it does not matter how big/small you are, or how long you have been in business, airsoft retail is just not catered for with our current legislation. And if there is no airsoft retail in this country, the sport will die.

Any airsoft retailer who says they have not received items over 1 joule in shipments before, regardless of whether they ordered them like that or not, either does not care what goes out the door, or is lying. You can order x300 AEGs from a supplier under 1 joule and you can be sure a stack of them are well over the limit. Irish retailers are bound by the same 1 joule limit as anyone else. This means under current Irish law, you are potentially committing a firearms offence every time you import a pallet of AEGs.

Whether a retailer downgrades RIFs before selling them is utterly irrelevant in the eyes of the law, however this has got some retailers off the hook before in the past with other seizures. Not so this time.

As a result of this, most of the other large retailers are no longer importing anything that could be over 1 joule. This massively limits what can be imported and what cannot. Essentially if the RIFs are coming from a distributor, they are almost certain to be over 1 joule for the other 95% of the world who do not have a 1 joule limit. If it comes from the factory like with G&G for example, they downgrade our AEGs before they ship. However if just one of those AEGs is over 1 joule, once again we are slapped with the firearms offence crap.

We've been mainly chatting with HobbyAirsoft and MainIrishAirsoft regarding this incident and are just getting the run around with the Dept of Justice, Firearms Policy unit and the Gardaí.

If you are an airsofter, and care about the future of the sport, you HAVE to sign up with the IAA once the new organisation and procedures/members are all in place. I hate to iterate that this is not an IAA promo post, I personally only half know two of the members but they all bring a lot in the way of past experience. Curently airsoft has NO VOICE in this country, we are a nothing, a nobody. At least with hundreds/thousands of members, an airsoft association will carry some weight.

We all have to come together to try and establish some kind of plan for the future of the sport in this country in regards players/retailers/site owners, as it really is hanging by a thread.

Thanks guys.

Steve

Kashkai

This is Ireland where:
(a) the average citizen talks a lot from their barstool but actually will do very little. The Greeks, Spanish etc will march and riot against what their governments are doing to the average citizen in the name of austerity while the Irish do diddly squat. So I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for massive support against this "crackdown" against shipments of aeg's.

(b) the average Irish person does not like to accept personal responsibility for their actions. If someone's little Johnny gets his hands on a one joule+ aeg and takes someone's eye out, will the parents take responsibility? No. They'll point the finger at the retailer for selling the aeg to them in the first place. So this crackdown on imports is just ensuring that all aeg's are legal and relatively safe.

Customs are only upholding the law of the one joule limit which everyone knows is there for a reason, I.e. so you don't need a firearms licence. How many under 21's currently playing air soft would be able to get a firearms licence if their aeg's were over the one joule limit? Answer, NONE. Airsoft can be a dangerous hobby, hence the eye protection and face protection, and this for a sub one joule limit on the guns in use.

All involved in this sport/industry will just have to abide by the law or the powers that be will crack down and possibly ban airsoft "for the greater public good" (well any excuse to distract the populace from the mess the politicians are making of this country). Push them too far and next, you'll have revenue invading air soft sites and checking to see if the owners are handing over their proper amounts of VAT on the €25 or so they charge for a day's airsoft. This could drive prices upwards, if not result in the closure of some sites for non payment of taxes. The Gardai might be empowered to be at sites to do the chrono on guns themselves and might confiscate those found to be over the limit. I could go on but you get the picture. The righteous mob (politicians, media etc) is always on the lookout for the next thing to ban and make enough noise and they will turn their attention on to you.

As an aside, I'm in my 40's with young kids and there is no way I'd let any of them handle an airsoft gun. Yet there doesn't appear to be a problem selling springers to young kids. Perhaps the parents bought them and passed them on but I saw several 6-8 year olds running around the Salute event yesterday with them. These aren't as powerful as a GBB pistol but I'd say they could still do damage to eyes/teeth at close range. Why are they being sold at all? They are of no use in skirmishing. Is it a cheap sideline for retailers? Do you make money on them at 25-40 euro a pop? At this price range, people might make an impulse purchase for little Johnny not realising it can still do harm. I wouldn't see them splashing out 120 euro + on a gas pistol for little Johnny and thus the price could be used as the deterrent against buying these for little kids.

Witcher

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

How many under 21's currently playing air soft would be able to get a firearms licence if their aeg's were over the one joule limit? Answer, NONE.

You can have a licence from 16 up but you can't get a licence for an airsoft gun anyway..they don't have a serial number.


Imo the only hope of getting an amendment and allow retailers to import airsoft guns over 1 joule to be downgraded before sale would be if the IAA managed to get it tacked on to some piece of broader firearms legislation in the future, the DOJ aren't going to go through the process just for airsoft.

hightower1

Hey Steve, while I completely agree that airsoft in Ireland is in a nasty situation where we are a passionate minority with no political or legislative voice I dont think thats going to change anytime soon....but I would be the first to welcome it.


My post however is more with the business side of this, it seems like a harsh line taken with retailers here considering the law of averages goes way up for one gun being hot when importing hundreds in one go. One would hope the gardai would use common sense and see that your a legit business and are willing to comply and downgrade these under garda supervision if necessary etc

However if you or any others are ordering hundreds of AEGs at a go would this not give any kind of financial clout with your suppliers? Could you too not take such a hard line with them? How are your business relationships with them? - ie are they aware how serious this is for you / do they care if it endangers any future business with them.
Is it a case that ordering hundreds of AEGs at a time is small stuff compared to other regular orders they would receive and as such dont warrant the same serious attention to begin with ?

ricka

I've announced earlier on our own thread for people to have patience if they're looking for certain rifles from us in the next few weeks, due to the problem you've outlined above Steve.
Robbie our tech in Rathcoole is flying to France next week to downgrade a consignment of rifles for us.I've just been to scared to bring them in of late, because of recent developments.
Due to the small size of the Irish market, most distributors are unwilling to downgrade.Even when they do, I've yet to receive an order where everything is under 1 joule.
in fact of the three orders we've now done with G&P and paid for downgrade, at least 50% were still overpowered.
The problem is retailers need some system so we can act as a proofing house for the products we sell.
I agree that something needs to be done and I'm glad you started this thread.
I also think as a community we have to get together on this.
Since the IAA have established communication with the relevant authorities in the past and they're definitely getting active again then let's use them.
While some may not care to much what happens to retailers, I would say that without an active retail market, numbers playing will dwindle as there'll be no new blood entering the sport.
If numbers go down significantly, sites will close.
One site owner has told me that there's roughly a two year cycle on airsoft players.Six months getting into it.About a year active and then six months fall away time.
You need new people and I would say the retailers bring most of the noobs to sites.With every rifle or pistol sold, we're telling people where they can go play.
Hopefully the new IAA committee members will draw on help from the retail and site owners.Then we can all start to work on this together

Witcher

Was the possibility of guns being imported over the limit and downgraded later discussed with the DOJ?

Inari

What worries me is that this situation smacks of a very Irish way of dealing with things - they make things as difficult and/or uncomfortable to work in until you simply give up due to an inability to comply any longer.

With the personal importation of RIF's already banned under current legislation (though not yet enforced, nor having a legal definition of an RIF) all they have to do is stop retailers' importing, and airsoft dies. To me that is very scary, as it seems quite likely. Headshops were far more lucrative (turn over and therefore tax-money speaking, at least) and they were eliminated overnight. It is not a far-fetched idea unfortunately.

How many of you have imported RIF's? How many of those have been over the limit? How many close calls have their been? How many of you have had guns seized? How many of you have personally paid for downgrades to be carried out, and only to find out upon receipt of the gun that it was never done? I hear stories every day about guns being seized due to being over powered, about guns being improperly downgraded - I even had a lad in whom had spent quite a bit of money with a retailer, and their downgrade method was to turn the hop up all of the way on...realistically speaking, this industry is a joke! There are very few marketable guns manufactured under 1 joule, and even fewer companies who will reliably/consistently carry out modifications to bring the guns in-line with Irish law, and as we've established above from individuals, it's not like the work is always done. There is a major element of them knowing that the gear is being sent halfway around the world and that they have very little chance of having to deal with any fall out.

In order for airsoft to flourish in Ireland there needs to be a provision for the guns to be imported into a secure facility, and downgraded to exacting standards before being deemed fit-for-sale with regard to Irish law. Unfortunately I cannot see that happening, but one can hope...

But yes, this is certainly a time for unity...but then again, adversity always is.

@HighTower: The problem is even if all of the retailers in Ireland were rolled into one, and all money consolidated into one supplier...you would still be an unbelievably infinitesimal insignificant blip on the radar, and in absolutely no position to make demands, no matter how reasonable they may be. It is sad but true - the Irish market is about the equivalent of Northern Paris

AirsoftEire.com

I don't think anyone is naive enough to believe any amendment will be made to the 1 joule limit no matter who you are, it just takes far to much effort and is very costly. Not to mention how slowly the wheels turn in regards legislation; we have a big problem right now and even if by some miracle an amendment was made, it would be 2+ years before it would happen.

Currently, this is where the airsoft retailer/skirmish site licensing stands, as of five weeks ago:

Stephen, I am replying to your email about your expression of interest in becoming a
registered dealer in RIF's, when the register is set up,

The relevant regulations, which will lead to the register being set up,
have been drafted and we await progress on their finalisation, which will
be agreed between this Department and the Attorney General's office.

We can notify you further when there is further progress,

That is from the head of the Firearms Unit. Something of a how long is a piece of string answer.

If a provision could be set out in the licensing for the importation of RIFs to a maximum of 1.5 joules or the like, with customs and Gardaí fully informed, maybe it would be possible to sidestep the 1 joule legislation for licensed importers.

Anyways, as a result of the hassle caused by this seizue, expect to see a reduction in range across all retailers.

AirsoftEire.com

Blay wrote: »

Was the possibility of guns being imported over the limit and downgraded later discussed with the DOJ?

I believe back around that time, it was a case of take it or leave it regarding the 1 joule limit; I think everyone involved was happy to even get the 1 joule limit.

Some of our suppliers have suggested importing to registered firearms dealers. Again this would not work, as the RIFs would have to be serialised. Not to mention, no one apart from the military/Gardaí has the ability to import fully automatic "firearms".

Lemming

Rather than trying to get the DoJ to draft up amendments just for airsoft - which would be a long time coming anyway - would it not be better to push for an exemption clause (like the VCRA has for airsoft in the UK) or agreement with the DPP & Customs on 'not to enforce' where import is to a bonafide shop, or a registered dealer (whenever they get around to implementing that)? Obviously with conditions for resale/trade/shifting-stock that full compliance with Irish law be observed after the fact.

hightower1

Lemming wrote: »

registered dealer (whenever they get around to implementing that)?

And there in is the crux of the problem imo, if there is no formal recognition of airsoft retailers there can be no formal talks or amendments for them. Irish law needs to register and recognize Irish retailers as licensed entities as the first step in securing any legal basis and protection for the sport. Sites should fall under the the same act of formal licensing also.

eversmann

I once thought that the answer was importing the components and assembling the AEGs in Ireland but unfortunately this is was in no way economically viable as the cost of every AEG would jump approximately 33% and then you'd have to listen to the inevitable

'Irish Retailers are robbing b*stards, I can get that €400 gun from Ehobby for €245'

Unfortunately, the situation now is Irish Retailers will buy what they are 1000% will be <1 Joule and Irish Airsofters will wonder why when they go into a shop, everybody has the same stuff.

Who can blame either one?

The law is an ass but is unfortunately the law.

PS:

I don't really see why a certain retailer is openly selling M130>150 Aeg springs and M130>M190 sniper springs? You would have to have one serious air leak to warrant same.

Puding

And there in is the crux of the problem imo, if there is no formal recognition of airsoft retailers there can be no formal talks or amendments for them. Irish law needs to register and recognize Irish retailers as licensed entities as the first step in securing any legal basis and protection for the sport. Sites should fall under the the same act of formal licensing also.

the problem is money, to implement any of this needs cash which the country is short of and tbh we're not a priority so it will more than likely be left

mememo

Hi guys seriously hope that you have got the old lawyers involved in this because its the only way that you will avoid this kind of treatment in the future is to set a legal precedent for retailers to be allowed to downgrade airsoft items in country .

Witcher

mememo wrote: »

Hi guys seriously hope that you have got the old lawyers involved in this because its the only way that you will avoid this kind of treatment in the future is to set a legal precedent for retailers to be allowed to downgrade airsoft items in country .

What 'treatment'? The Gardai and customs are only enforcing the law as it's written. The position retailers are in is unfortunate and needs to be changed asap but in this case, the authorities have only followed the law.

jayod30

Blay wrote: »

What 'treatment'? The Gardai and customs are only enforcing the law as it's written. The position retailers are in is unfortunate and needs to be changed asap but in this case, the authorities have only followed the law.

For years they let things pass and now, on a whim, they decide to uphold the law all of a sudden and destroy thousands worth of stock. That kind of treatment.:rolleyes:

Stonewolf

jayod30 wrote: »

For years they let things pass and now, on a whim, they decide to uphold the law all of a sudden and destroy thousands worth of stock. That kind of treatment.:rolleyes:

Drink driving
Social welfare abuse
Legal highs
learner drivers unaccompanied

It's called a crackdown, normal procedure.


As an aside, just how much over are we talking? I know it's 20-30 quid more expensive but could you not ask to have it downgraded to significantly within the limits (germans are limited to 0.5J afterall) and then upgrade it again?

Witcher

jayod30 wrote: »

For years they let things pass and now, on a whim, they decide to uphold the law all of a sudden and destroy thousands worth of stock. That kind of treatment.:rolleyes:

Retailers are accepting that risk when they import guns, airsofteire said a number of guns in every shipment are usually hot even though they've asked for a downgrade but they still import the shipment knowing they might be over so they're accepting a potential loss...people are suggesting involving solicitors when unlicenced firearms were being imported and were seized and destroyed..no solicitor or court is going to listen to an argument of 'sure it's been going on for ages':pac: I think the fact the Gardai haven't taken it further than just seizing and destroying them is cause for considerable relief.

Episodes like this will become more frequent when the personal import ban comes in because they'll focus solely on testing retailers shipments.

mememo

Im sure that airsofteire could at least have being able to explain that the guns were going to be downgraded or were ment to be downgraded . Yes we are supposed to follow the laws as written but we all know how silly the airsoft laws are at the moment and the garda did not have to impound all the Guns they could have showing a little common sense and allowed the lads to downgrade onsite at customs or at least send the guns back to the supplier it just seams unfair to us all that we are going to pay for a total lack of common sense on the part of the law makers

Witcher

mememo wrote: »

Im sure that airsofteire could at least have being able to explain that the guns were going to be downgraded or were ment to be downgraded . Yes we are supposed to follow the laws as written but we all know how silly the airsoft laws are at the moment and the garda did not have to impound all the Guns they could have showing a little common sense and allowed the lads to downgrade onsite at customs or at least send the guns back to the supplier it just seams unfair to us all that we are going to pay for a total lack of common sense on the part of the law makers

There's no facility for customs to hold firearms and let them be downgraded...it's not the job of Customs or the Gardai to be our buddy and bend the rules for us.

it just seams unfair to us all that we are going to pay for a total lack of common sense on the part of the law makers

You're making the mistake of thinking the DOJ have to help airsoft out in some way. As Airsofteire said themselves on the last page, the DOJ said we either took the 1J limit or we left it...we took it so we're living under their roof with their rules. It's not like there is a long list of rules to obey with airsoft..ya keep the gun under 1J and don't have it out in public, doesn't look good when we're seen infringing on two simple rules.

jayod30

Stonewolf wrote: »

Drink driving
Social welfare abuse
Legal highs
learner drivers unaccompanied

It's called a crackdown, normal procedure.

I get what your saying but there is one significant difference, on all listed above there was plenty of prior warning given to people, here there was none. If they were quite happy to let it slide then all of a sudden have a clamp down a simple warning to distributers wouldn't have been to much to ask

Kashkai

Customs do this all the time, I.e. their focus on one particular item is changed from time to time. I fly rc planes and import all of the parts from Hong Kong. I had 30 orders varying from small boxes to containers five feet long pass through without a problem and then all of a sudden, four orders were stopped and I had to produce Internet receipts to prove what these parts were, what they were for and how much they cost. I wondered if they thought I was trying to build an atom bomb in my shed Then their focus switched to something else and my orders again passed through unmolested after that (until next time they switch back their attention to large packages from Hong Kong).

Of course, you might say that an rc plane isn't dangerous like an aeg. Well how would you like something five feet long, seven feet wingspan, flying at 80kph to smack into your head?;)

Customs are just doing their jobs here and it's not personal. No one wants aeg's slipping through the net that are higher powered than allowed, causing an injury and thus bringing unwanted attention onto this hobby.

Some have suggested that retailers send reps abroad to ensure aeg's are sub one joule. Would a meeting with customs to carry out the work here in a bonded warehouse on the docks (where the guns are still not officially in Ireland yet) not be an idea. That way the guns could be modified and tested before release.

Stonewolf

jayod30 wrote: »

I get what your saying but there is one significant difference, on all listed above there was plenty of prior warning given to people, here there was none. If they were quite happy to let it slide then all of a sudden have a clamp down a simple warning to distributers wouldn't have been to much to ask

I would consider 5 years to be fair warning. The Gardai are only doing their job and customs theirs. If you want to really complain about an injustice try being charged 15 euro by a courier without asking you in advance for the convenience of having your package declared to customs.

OzCam

now, on a whim, they decide to uphold the law all of a sudden

Oh my gosh! People actually doing their jobs! Whatever next?

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Would a meeting with customs to carry out the work here in a bonded warehouse on the docks (where the guns are still not officially in Ireland yet) not be an idea. That way the guns could be modified and tested before release.

That would require people in the Irish airsoft industry to set aside their mutual distrust and work together in their shared interest. Dream on.

Steve

jayod30 wrote: »

For years they let things pass and now, on a whim, they decide to uphold the law all of a sudden and destroy thousands worth of stock. That kind of treatment.:rolleyes:

The written word of law has little actual meaning in this country - the politicians make laws so vague that nothing is set in stone until it goes before the courts and a precedent is set so this is a good point.
If and when it is challenged in court then the judge is duty bound to take the fact that, if true, 'for years they let things pass' into account.

Prosperous Dave wrote: »

Would a meeting with customs to carry out the work here in a bonded warehouse on the docks (where the guns are still not officially in Ireland yet) not be an idea. That way the guns could be modified and tested before release.

That idea could have legs - it would take the IAA as a recognised body to help implement it but, so far, imo, it's the best idea on how to work through this. Fair play Dave.

OzCam

Steve wrote: »

That idea could have legs - it would take the IAA as a recognised body to help implement it but, so far, imo, it's the best idea on how to work through this. Fair play Dave.

I suggested the idea of a bonded warehouse almost three years ago. I was laughed at.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead of the game. Where there's no will, there's no way.


Here's another idea (not mine, this one): there's plenty of warehouse space available in Newry.

Steve

OzCam wrote: »

I suggested the idea of a bonded warehouse almost three years ago. I was laughed at.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead of the game. Where there's no will, there's no way.


Here's another idea (not mine, this one): there's plenty of warehouse space available in Newry.

It only pays to be ahead when the game catches up

A UK warehouse would certainly be easier to work than flying reps out for downgrades. Win win there and immediate payback on costs for the retailers..

gerrowadat

OzCam wrote: »

I suggested the idea of a bonded warehouse almost three years ago. I was laughed at.

Sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead of the game. Where there's no will, there's no way.


Here's another idea (not mine, this one): there's plenty of warehouse space available in Newry.

I was on the IAA committee 3 years ago, and don't remember this being suggested, let alone anything being laughed at.

Sure give the DoJ a ring. Tell them you're from the IAA.

Steve

OzCam wrote: »

That would require people in the Irish airsoft industry to set aside their mutual distrust and work together in their shared interest. Dream on.

gerrowadat wrote: »

I was on the IAA committee 3 years ago, and don't remember this being suggested, let alone anything being laughed at.

Sure give the DoJ a ring. Tell them you're from the IAA.

Q.E.D.

How far down the shítpipe does the sport have to go before people put their self interests aside and actually realise that there is a problem here.

Come on, folks, lets all be proactive here - if we don't then the only losers are the airsoft community.

jayod30

OzCam wrote: »

Oh my gosh! People actually doing their jobs! Whatever next?



That would require people in the Irish airsoft industry to set aside their mutual distrust and work together in their shared interest. Dream on.

He know, it's as if some are actually pleased this has happened to airsofteire

Leftyflip

jayod30 wrote: »

He know, it's as if some are actually pleased this has happened to airsofteire

Nobody is...
Customs have a job to do, that's the end of it.

jayod30

Leftyflip wrote: »

Nobody is...
Customs have a job to do, that's the end of it.

Eh yes, I know that. But the problem is, up until this point they haven't been and now there is a major problem. And the fact that they have left this slide for so long, they have set a precedent for themselves so as Steve said this would have a factor in any case made against what is happening. I'm not sure about yourself, or anyone else for that matter, but I would hope this surely isn't "the end of it"

TommyKnocker

As a relative new comer to this sport can I ask what may be a stupid question?

As I understand it, the issue being discussed is the confiscation of a shipment of AEGs from Airsofteire for being found over the legal irish limit when tested by customs/gardai on arrival. Is that correct?

People have mentioned having the items shipped to a bonded warehouse where the downgrade would be carried out under the watchful eye of customs/gardai.

Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

TheDoc

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

So if you pay €5 for a downgrade, it comes to you, not downgraded, and you put in €7 of parts and labour, bringing the total cost to between €14-15 extra for a rifle. And guess who ends up paying for that in the long run?

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

TommyKnocker

TheDoc wrote: »

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

So if you pay €5 for a downgrade, it comes to you, not downgraded, and you put in €7 of parts and labour, bringing the total cost to between €14-15 extra for a rifle. And guess who ends up paying for that in the long run?

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

The_ChiefDUB

For the information of all, the IAA has issued a statement on this subject which can be read on the IAA website at http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=1521

TheDoc

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

No, they cant

Airsoft is illegal in China. These companies operate under the safe criteria that

A) You are half way accross the world
You are trading in items which are illegal in the host nation.

Obviously to maintain business, you would hope suppliers would honour services paid for, but its very common to get scammed and have **** all followup.

You can search back through the years here (or quickly find google search results) , to read retailers outlining how they have paid for tens of thousands worth of stock for it never to be shipped, having to add additional costs onto orders to cover bribes, and delays in stock due to crackdowns on factories by police.

All, very easily found and publicly viewable

I think alot of people forget the fact these items are mostly built in China, where it is illegal (unless that has changed in the last year or two)

ricka

OzCam wrote: »

Oh my gosh! People actually doing their jobs! Whatever next?
That would require people in the Irish airsoft industry to set aside their mutual distrust and work together in their shared interest. Dream on.

OzCam wrote: »

I suggested the idea of a bonded warehouse almost three years ago. I was laughed at.
Sometimes it doesn't pay to be ahead of the game. Where there's no will, there's no way.
.

Look, if I'm to be honest, I really don't see where you're coming from...what distrust is there in Irish airsoft? There certainly isn't among retailers, as clearly shown for the IAA EGM etc.

Sometimes suggestions are noted, and not acted upon at the time due to there being no need. However there is now a clear need for something such as a bonded warehouse, but it is completely irrespective who came up with the idea. It is a good idea, and we should work together to enact it.

TommyKnocker wrote: »

As a relative new comer to this sport can I ask what may be a stupid question?
Is it not possible that instead of the retailers requesting the AEGs be downgraded prior to shipping, could they not request that the springs be removed altogether. Thus what arrives is a piece of plastic/metal, shaped like a toy firearm, but which is capable of firing nothing.

Then the retailers could insert the apriopriate spring and chrono the AEG to ensure that it meets the laws governing Airsoft in Ireland.

Would this not appease the powers that be? and if not, why?

We have had all the motors removed from our rifles before shipment for some time now.
Recently another retailer was asked to come to Dublin Port with a crono to prove everything was under one joule.
For this reason I dont feel making the AEG incapable of firing is covering us anymore.

TheDoc wrote: »

Simply put

Ireland is a blip on the radar for a massive industry globally. Every supplier provides a downgrade service and a spring removal service on request.

The problem is they just take the extra money you pay for a rifle and then they don't do it.

It is not feasible in the slightest to organise anything reliable with the suppliers in China etc. It needs to be organised and resolved here.

Absolutely the case

TommyKnocker wrote: »

Well then, I hope at least that if the retailer can show that they requested and paid for a downgrade service which was not provided, then they can claim the value of the sized items back from the supplier.

You would expect so however I doubt it.
But much more importantly, who cares if you're about to the prosecuted for a firearms offence

The_ChiefDUB wrote: »

For the information of all, the IAA has issued a statement on this subject which can be read on the IAA website at http://irishairsoft.ie/?p=1521

They're now active and we must all get behind them.It must be a unified voice and people must forget their past grievences

hightower1

Does anyone have any information on Irish spending from retailers per annum Vs other countries of Irelands size etc? I see people saying we are a blip on the radar but is there any evidence of this?

If so then why dont the major retailers get together and order their stock at a set time agreed on by them as one large order. With the buying power of the major retailers combined surely the suppliers would pay more attention to actually performing downgrades if thats the logic behind why they may not do them for us.

Should the retailers be worried about future stock being seen by others then a 3rd party like the IAA could act as the buyer?

thermo

hightower1 wrote: »

If so then why dont the major retailers get together and order their stock at a set time agreed on by them as one large order.

not really an option as the two largest retailers dont shop in the same places, hobbyairsoft are the cybergun agent and as i understand it mia are the asg agent.

perhaps the retailers could partner up with a retailer "up north" have the gear sent there to their warehouse and have them downgraded there by local staff (of the partner company) or by their own staff they send up?

OzCam

ricka wrote: »

...what distrust is there in Irish airsoft? There certainly isn't among retailers, as clearly shown for the IAA EGM etc.

Where, IIRC, a grand total of two retailers showed up. It's a start I suppose, but it's hardly inspiring.

The problem with a bonded warehouse is that the Firearms Act(s) don't have any provision for it and there is no chance whatsoever of the government reopening that can of very large and very expensive worms in the forseeable future.

Forging a relationship with the DoJ, Customs and Gardai strong enough for them to get behind an idea like a bonded warehouse would take years of work.

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

ricka

OzCam wrote: »

Where, IIRC, a grand total of two retailers showed up. It's a start I suppose, but it's hardly inspiring.

The problem with a bonded warehouse is that the Firearms Act(s) don't have any provision for it and there is no chance whatsoever of the government reopening that can of very large and very expensive worms in the forseeable future.

Forging a relationship with the DoJ, Customs and Gardai strong enough for them to get behind an idea like a bonded warehouse would take years of work.

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

You're wrong there.There was a number of retailers in attendance.
SG Airsoft, Airsofteire, MIA, Hobbyairsoft, Strikearms and Enniscorthy Airsoft.
A number of of other retailers were unable to attend but were informed by phone over the following days.
In fact only one retailer in the country that was contacted was unhappy with the proceedings.


On the bonded warehouse issue, I accept what you're saying and agree its unlikely to happen.However we should explore every option and debate every possibility

TheDoc

OzCam wrote: »

Maybe I'll give them a call and suggest the idea over a cup of coffee. I always have time for the nice folks in the DoJ and it's been a while

gerrowadat

TheDoc wrote: »

sliabh

thermo wrote: »

perhaps the retailers could partner up with a retailer "up north" have the gear sent there to their warehouse and have them downgraded there by local staff (of the partner company) or by their own staff they send up?

This one could be a sensible idea. There still will be a cost impact, but its something that should work with existing law. Will it fly with the VCRA?

Lemming

sliabh wrote: »

This one could be a sensible idea. There still will be a cost impact, but its something that should work with existing law. Will it fly with the VCRA?

First port of call for retailers: UKARA. You may or may not need to become a registered member and I should imagine that the idea is one far from ever having crossed their collective minds. Might end up also needing to have words with the powers that be within Northern Ireland.

TheDoc

Lemming wrote: »

First port of call for retailers: UKARA. You may or may not need to become a registered member and I should imagine that the idea is one far from ever having crossed their collective minds. Might end up also needing to have words with the powers that be within Northern Ireland.

Would there not be essentially a double tax?

Import tax into the North and then further tax for when they are declaring crossing the border?

If there is even a hint of " we are just gonna schneak em in" from the north, scrap it entirely.Last thing we need is a headline of a truck full of RIF's "smuggled" into the country.

Lemming

TheDoc wrote: »

Would there not be essentially a double tax?

Import tax into the North and then further tax for when they are declaring crossing the border?

Why would there be a double tax? Point of entry for the EU is the UK in this case. The Irish government can't then just arbitrarily slap another tax on for the sake of it because that violates the whole principle of free trade within the EU.

Witcher

Ideally there would be some type of short term solution agreed to with the DOJ like a bonded warehouse as suggested until retailers could lobby for an allowance for guns to be over and downgraded prior to sale in their own premises in the long term but realistically both of those ideas will probably never happen and things will plod along as they are now.

TheDoc

Lemming wrote: »

Why would there be a double tax? Point of entry for the EU is the UK in this case. The Irish government can't then just arbitrarily slap another tax on for the sake of it because that violates the whole principle of free trade within the EU.

Thought there would be a differentiation in tax that would be required to be paid.

Also, there is no guarantee, that once declared, they wont be taken anyway for testing in the South.

I bet there was a few people who forget about the declaring part

There is a difference going up north to grab an Imac on the cheap, and bringing in a few hundreds rifles in a truck

OzCam

ricka, I checked the AGM minutes and you're right - there were 5 retailers a that meeting (one of whom I believe has closed down since). I stand corrected, which is always a good thing.

So has there been any progress with this since January? If you could get those retailers along with the other 10 or so retailers in the country together to do some actual, y'know, work instead of sitting around chairsofting and bickering that would be just wonderful.

I was thinking about the Northern Ireland idea a bit more, and there could be a problem: the power limit in NI is also 1J. It's different from England, Wales & Scotland because the limit up North was defined in local legislation which predates the VCRA. ASI_Casper has quoted the relevant legislation on this board before, you can search for it if you need it.

Blay, unfortunately the "allowance" idea would require a change to the Firearms Act. Highly unlikely to happen in the lifetime of this government.

Anyway, isn't it up to the importers to find a supplier who will provide product which complies with Irish law? The Italians seem to have worked it out - they have a 1J limit too. Maybe our importers could ask them how it's done?

There seems to be a market opportunity for someone to supply gearboxes with 1J springs to Irish retailers. Getting one gun downgraded at the factory is problematical, but I bet they'd be only too happy to put on an overtime shift to make a batch of 10,000 gearboxes with M90 (or whatever) springs in them.