German hypocrisy on debt

Biggins · 31-08-2012 01:35PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Nobody forgave the Germans their debts, they have been paying back war debt and reparations up until very recently.

Yep, I remember reading about it recently.
One info link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

Germany will finally clear its First World War debt by repaying nearly 75.84€million this weekend.
The 27.81€billion reparations were set by the Allied victors – mostly Britain, France and America – as compensation and punishment for the 1914-18 war.
The reparations were set at the Treaty of Versailles on June 28, 1919, by the Allied victors - mostly Britain, France and America.

dttq · 31-08-2012 01:40PM

Colmustard wrote: »

People
I was on to my bank manager and I read this to him and I said I am not paying my mortgage anymore on the grounds your organisations broke this country. He understood and he said he will not send me any pontificating letters and he will write the debt off. I am now a property owner. OP you are brilliant.

History what is the point.

You are about as funny as a German stand up comedian.

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 01:43PM

Biggins wrote: »

Yep, I remember reading about it recently.
One info link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

Which only accounts for WW I.
I just had a look into WW II, and it would appear that Germany is still repaying Israel for that to this day.
The distribution of these debt repayments seem rather random, though. Poland never received any repayments, while Yugoslavia received compensations of an estimated value of $36mio in industrial equipment.
There were some annexations, but it's a little difficult to put a value on those.
The US seems to mostly have taken any patents and copyrights they could get their hands on. That would explain the massive technological advances they made in the 50s.

Triangla · 31-08-2012 01:44PM

Britain only finished paying off the US for WW2 lend lease in 2006, crazy to think about!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/may/05/secondworldwar.comment

As for the OP, there are many reasons why we should not be borrowing so much.

Two I would suggest are:
1) Bank debt should have been paid by the banks and not nationalised, hence the name bank debt

2) Massive public sector wage bill, it's too big and needs to be cut by a hell of a lot

Bringing up WW2 as a reason not only displays an ignorance of the past but also completely side steps the reality of the present.

Biggins · 31-08-2012 01:45PM

Shenshen wrote: »

...The US seems to mostly have taken any patents and copyrights they could get their hands on. That would explain the massive technological advances they made in the 50s.

...So would their taking of Von Braun and others in the science field, to the states for their knowledge (letting them off with possible war crimes) - but thats a whole big topic for another thread.

Colmustard · 31-08-2012 01:46PM

dttq wrote: »

You are about as funny as a German stand up comedian.

Are German stand up comedians not funny? I seen one and he was hilarious, but not as funny as you.

cosbloodymick · 31-08-2012 01:53PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Nobody forgave the Germans their debts, they have been paying back war debt and reparations up until very recently.
So what exactly is your point here?

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 01:59PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

If you are referring to the London Debt Agreement here, that was debt reduction on debts Germany ran up between 1920 and 1930, a total of $ 16 billion.
France, the US and Britain reduced this to about half, which Germany did pay back on time.
Edit : Also, that would have been in 1953 rather than 1952, just as an aside.

Colmustard · 31-08-2012 02:00PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Are German stand up comedians not funny? I seen one and he was hilarious, but not as funny as you.

One of his jokes at the comedy club in London, I was listening to the English fans in Germany (the world cup year) "2 world wars and one world cup do da do da",,I never knew America won a world cup.

I broke my bollox laughing and the crowd booed him. In the end he got a standing ovation.

Chuck Stone · 31-08-2012 02:01PM

It's really pathetic that people can only access the 'Hitler file' when they talk about Germany.

The Israelis are allies with Germany these days (the Germans even built them a billion dollar sub and donated it to them for free!) and yet people in Ireland still bang on about Germany like it they were injured on D-day.

Give it a fucking rest.

theholyghost · 31-08-2012 02:03PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy.

So like the Mouse That Roared we need to invade the United States, be defeated quickly and then benefit from an injection of their victorious cash.

Colmustard · 31-08-2012 02:05PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

ejmaztec · 31-08-2012 02:05PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

I think the main reason Germany was bank-rolled after WW2 was to prevent a repeat of what happened after it was left up to its eyeballs in sh1t after WW1. The first ones to take advantage of a post WW2 Germany in turmoil would have been the Soviets, with the Iron Curtain starting at the French border instead of a lot further East.

MHalberstram · 31-08-2012 02:06PM

davet82 wrote: »

so now we've established the germans are hypocrites and started two world wars and killed millions and wrecked other countries economies and beat lots of teams at football it now means that Ireland shouldnt have to pay pack all the money that was borrowed from them... somebody call Enda and let him know this, well done OP :rolleyes:

Private banks borrowed the money.

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 02:09PM

Colmustard wrote: »

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

Most people believed that at the time, I know I did.
I don't think there were many people around who even suspected that the bank debt we were guaranteeing would be high enough to bankrupt the entire country. Nobody would have imagined that at the time, and the people who should have checked... well, didn't.

swimming in a sea · 31-08-2012 02:11PM

OSI wrote: »

Not really fair to blame the Germans entirely for both WW's.

They were part of a much bigger picture that caused WW1, and after being shafted with the blame and responsibility for WW1 at the end of it, spiralled pretty steeply eventually leading to the Nazis gaining power and WW2. You can lay a large portion of blame on the rise of the Nazis on the Allies trying to humiliate Germany after WW1.

It was the hardline policys of countries that dealt with german debt in the 20's\30's that caused the country to go in to depression and hyper inflation, they could just not pay off the versaille debs. So you could say they have not learned from their own past with regards to Greece.

cosbloodymick · 31-08-2012 02:12PM

Colmustard wrote: »

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

Yeah, its worked out really well hasn't it.
Their our banks now but they were private companies then.
Profits are private but losses are socialised, what a scam!!

ArmaniJeanss · 31-08-2012 02:17PM

swimming in a sea wrote: »

So you could say they have not learned from their own past with regards to Greece.

Not really.
They treat Greece with compassion, shove billions in its direction via low interest loans, and offer advice on what Greece needs to do to get itself out of the mess.
Its completely different to how Germany was itself treated in the 1920s.

Colmustard · 31-08-2012 02:18PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Most people believed that at the time, I know I did.
I don't think there were many people around who even suspected that the bank debt we were guaranteeing would be high enough to bankrupt the entire country. Nobody would have imagined that at the time, and the people who should have checked... well, didn't.

And that was the crux of it, the banks lied through their teeth and Lenihan believed them.

But this is hindsight, I think he should have let Anglo go, but he would still have to have saved AIB and BOI, otherwise it would have been a disaster.Imagine a country with no wages been paid and everyones saving wiped out completely. That is what would have happened. But we will never know whether that was the best thing to do, then what he did do.

CruelCoin · 31-08-2012 02:31PM

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Look at it a different way:

They built up the manpower, resources, wealth and popular opinion to wage war and conquer the entirety of Europe.

They got bombed into the stone age, with all the resources, wealth and most of their men-folk dead.

40 years later they did it again, and now they have the wealth once more!

These people have the answer, they know how it works, and we should be begging them for the secret.

Yes OP, how ****ing dare they give us their money...

cosbloodymick · 31-08-2012 02:41PM

Colmustard wrote: »

And that was the crux of it, the banks lied through their teeth and Lenihan believed them.

But this is hindsight, I think he should have let Anglo go, but he would still have to have saved AIB and BOI, otherwise it would have been a disaster.Imagine a country with no wages been paid and everyones saving wiped out completely. That is what would have happened. But we will never know whether that was the best thing to do, then what he did do.

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

Colmustard · 31-08-2012 02:42PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

You can't compare Iceland to Ireland. Icelands population is 300,000 about the size of Cork, they have their own resources and currency, we do not.

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 02:46PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

So what you're saying is, the Icelandic had the good sense to elect better politicians, who decided to not bail out the banks, whereas the Irish voted in a few of the lads, who underwrote all of their nation's bank debt against the advise of all other European nations?

I'm with you so far, but you have to explain to me again how that is Germany's fault?

cosbloodymick · 31-08-2012 02:50PM

Colmustard wrote: »

You can't compare Iceland to Ireland. Icelands population is 300,000 about the size of Cork, they have their own resources and currency, we do not.

I just have. We also have our own resources, but maybe not for much longer.

golden lane · 31-08-2012 02:54PM

you borrow money.....you spend it.....you borrow money....you spens it.....stop borrowing money...and stop spending it.......simple..

cosbloodymick · 31-08-2012 02:56PM

Shenshen wrote: »

So what you're saying is, the Icelandic had the good sense to elect better politicians, who decided to not bail out the banks, whereas the Irish voted in a few of the lads, who underwrote all of their nation's bank debt against the advise of all other European nations?

I'm with you so far, but you have to explain to me again how that is Germany's fault?

Because the ECB threatened to cut off liquidity to the Irish banks unless the Irish government gave a blanket gaurantee. Remember the ECB is supposed to be the lender of last resort, not the Irish taxpayer. The government is in possession of a letter written by the ECB to Brian Lenihan saying exactly that and are very anxious that it not be published. But the truth will out eventually.

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 02:57PM

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Because the ECB threatened to cut off liquidity to the Irish banks unless the Irish government gave a blanket gaurantee. Remember the ECB is supposed to be the lender of last resort, not the Irish taxpayer. The government is in possession of a letter written by the ECB to Brian Lenihan saying exactly that and are very anxious that it not be published. But the truth will out eventually.

Ah, got ya.
It's all a big conspiracy. Sorry, I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat this morning.

juan.kerr · 31-08-2012 02:58PM

What I don't understand is why the rest of europe stood idly by while germany reunified. Will this turn out to be our 'Munich Agreement'?

Next they'll start talking about Lebensraum again.

Shenshen · 31-08-2012 03:01PM

juan.kerr wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the rest of europe stood idly by while germany reunified. Will this turn out to be our 'Munich Agreement'?

Next they'll start talking about Lebensraum again.

What, and they couldn't have done that without first sinking millions and millions of Mark and Euro into Eastern Germany, trying to revive its economy?

Lawrence1895 · 31-08-2012 03:01PM

Yet another thread, judging Germany about what happened some hundred years ago? It's not getting boring, isn't it?

German hypocrisy on debt

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