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Manchester United Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread 12/13

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Comments

  • #4232
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    I don't think anything has really changed except we have Kagawa who moves the ball quickly and doesn't need a lot of touches. United have always tried to keep possession, move the ball around, especially at home. Away the counter is used a bit more.

    I also don't think anyone is shoehorned in a position that doesn't suit. Carrick is only playing in defence because of injuries. Valencia played one game at right back as Rafael had no summer break and Valencia had a good pre season and was ready for the tough away game that started the season.


  • #4233
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Liam O wrote: »
    I've never really noticed Welbeck's move towards the front post. If he is then it's a simple variation. If the corner is hitting the first defender (as it regularly does) then move in front of the fúcking defender. A lot of the corners wouldn't be all that bad if there was just someone in front of the first defender as a lot of them are good height for a flick on. I've been saying this for about 2 years though so change is unlikely. It's like the corner takers are expecting everyone to move to the front post and everyone in the box is expecting a back post corner. It's really perplexing.

    You know what I find perplexing?
    And this is not just a United thing even.
    So called professional players, getting paid vast sums of money every week, with access to the best training facilities and trainers around who cannot hit, with any level of consistency, the same ball, from the same place on the pitch into the box.
    These guys should be exceptionally consistent when it comes to corners. Not beating the first man should see a fine issued by the club to be honest as at that level of the game, it's just criminal.
    The same would go for a few things about the professional game. Guys who can only use one foot - come on lads, you do nothing else all week but play football, at least do some training with the other foot, you never know when even a bare ability with it might come in handy.


  • #4234
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    kippy wrote: »
    You know what I find perplexing?
    And this is not just a United thing even.
    So called professional players, getting paid vast sums of money every week, with access to the best training facilities and trainers around who cannot hit, with any level of consistency, the same ball, from the same place on the pitch into the box.
    These guys should be exceptionally consistent when it comes to corners. Not beating the first man should see a fine issued by the club to be honest as at that level of the game, it's just criminal.
    The same would go for a few things about the professional game. Guys who can only use one foot - come one lads, you do nothing else all week but play football, at least do some training with the other foot, you never know when even a bare ability with it might come in handy.

    I also find this perplexing, the inability of some of the so called top players to take a decent corner with any level of consistency. If I was the corner taker for Man U and hit them in as Nani does (without any consistency just hits the first man time and again usually below the waist too) I would spend hours on the training ground working on them until I got them right.


  • #4235
    GSPfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,843 ✭✭✭GSPfan


    Maybe they need more money!


  • #4236
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 19,923 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    fans need to understand about corners that they are not just lobbing the ball into the box, look at how Giggs takes corners, all he does is loft it up and it takes a lot of power for someone to do anything with it. What Nani is trying to do with his is take one that just about beat the first man and then so if someone gets their head on it there's a good chance of a goal. Gerrard gets criticism for it too. United's problem is that they allow the first man to be able to stand further back than he should be because they have nobody in the area before the post which means whoever takes the corner has to be like a sniper everytime if they want to beat the first man.


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  • #4237
    Al Capwned
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭Al Capwned


    Have you ever played the game?

    Using the "because he gets paid so much money" is the perplexing thing tbh.

    It's not just a matter of a repeating action like for instance, in darts or something. There a a huge amount of variables - ground conditions, weather conditions etc.

    Someone posted earlier that it is probably the fact that a lot of corner takers are trying to get the ball in at pace, probably a foot or so over the first defender that is causing so many to actually be intercepted by the front man - this was a good point.

    It would be easy to just dink it in to the penalty spot tbh, but there would be no goals from corners ever, as defenders and goalkeepers would just mop them up.

    The argument that no professional footballer should ever make a mistake because they are paid vast amounts of money is ridiculous. They are human beings, not machines.


  • #4238
    Al Capwned
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,721 ✭✭✭Al Capwned


    Liam O wrote: »
    fans need to understand about corners that they are not just lobbing the ball into the box, look at how Giggs takes corners, all he does is loft it up and it takes a lot of power for someone to do anything with it. What Nani is trying to do with his is take one that just about beat the first man and then so if someone gets their head on it there's a good chance of a goal. Gerrard gets criticism for it too. United's problem is that they allow the first man to be able to stand further back than he should be because they have nobody in the area before the post which means whoever takes the corner has to be like a sniper everytime if they want to beat the first man.

    Pretty much what I was trying to say! :)


  • #4239
    Bigtoe107
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 378 ✭✭Bigtoe107


    Wouldn't like to see Nani leave, as much as he can be infuriating he is still a fantastic footballer and one of the best wingers in the world. United should not sell players of his quality especially when their attitude is right, as Nani's is.

    In saying that if he was sold and a world class midfielder ala Martinez was brought in I could possibly live with it; but that's a big if.


  • #4240
    Mikeyt086
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,825 ✭✭✭Mikeyt086


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    in all fairness lads, as good and all as rafael was going forward, he was a bit suspect defensively the last day.

    their 2 goals and their shot off the bar, all came down their left wing, and also the 2 Dembele chances were cut ins from that left wing. not all rafael of course, but he could have defended alot better.

    had those 5 or so chances come from the other flank, Evra would be lashed out of it and people would be looking for him to be sold. a bit of fair analysis and realism is needed, rafael had a great game going forward, but he didnt defend as well as he should have done.

    And you would defend him. Unlike Rafael apparently, despite being Man of the Match. It's the exact same argument you dismissed when I posed it against Evra, who at 31 should not be making those mistakes.

    Rafael is 22, Evra is 31, when the kid allows goals down his flank it's a problem, but when the veteran does it's not and we're all out to get Paddy?

    Also, I'd like to add to this, Evra's mistakes came because he didn't stop the crosses, instead stood 5 yards away with his arms behind his back, Rafael's mistake came from over-committing to the first tackle, he actually made 2 tackles and got unlucky. I would never have a go at Evra if his mistakes came from trying too hard, but unfortunately they seem to come from the opposite.

    EDIT: It's definitely not worth getting back into that whole debate, just wanted to post this :p at you criticising Rafael for what you defended Evra over.


  • #4241
    v3ttel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,320 ✭✭✭v3ttel


    I'll be gutted if Nani does leave.

    We have such an array of attacking talent, and Nani is very important in this. He should be our first choice left winger, not Young, Welbeck, or Rooney (the two latter, who always seem to get pushed out there).

    To let him go would be baffling.


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  • #4242
    sob1467
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 793 ✭✭✭sob1467


    Wayne Rooney will be out for 2 months according to the Independent after surgery. Thank God we have Van Persie now wasn't totally in favour of a move at first but as it proves he is good cover to have.
    Manchester United's Wayne Rooney faces two months out after surgery
    WAYNE Rooney is facing up to two months on the sidelines at Manchester United after undergoing surgery to repair a six-inch wound which cut as deep as his thigh bone.

    Rooney, whose right thigh was sliced open by the studs of Fulham forward Hugo Rodallega in a freak collision during Saturday’s Old Trafford fixture, was forced to go under general anaesthetic prior to surgery, which included the stitching of the wound, due to the severity of the injury.

    The player then spent the night under observation in hospital before being discharged on Sunday morning to recover at home.

    But the initial fears of United manager Sir Alex Ferguson that the 26 year-old would be out for a month as a result of the gash now appear hugely optimistic with medical staff shocked by the extent of the cut.

    Ferguson insisted, following the Fulham game, that Rodallega could not be blamed for the injury, but the damage caused by the player’s studs has caused surprise and concern.

    Rooney, who will miss England’s World Cup qualifiers against Moldova and Ukraine next month and the start of United’s Champions League campaign, now faces an anxious wait over his likely recovery period.

    With the cut to his thigh being so extensive there is the possibility of muscle damage beneath the skin, but it is understood to be too early at this stage to assess the full scale of the injury. However, with the wound likely to require a lengthy period of recovery for the skin to heal, there is a genuine prospect of Rooney being out until the autumn. Further surgery could also be required if the wound fails to heal satisfactorily.

    Having been dropped from the starting line-up by Ferguson for the Fulham game, in favour of summer signings Robin van Persie and Shinji Kagawa, the injury could not have come at a worse moment for Rooney. For the first time in his United career, the striker is facing a battle to earn his place in the first team.

    With Ferguson determined to diminish United’s over-reliance on Rooney, it will require more than his recovery from injury to prompt his recall to the starting XI. The relationship between player and manager is no longer the father-son bond of previous years and it is known that Ferguson has been unimpressed by Rooney’s contribution in recent months and is no longer prepared to build his team around him.

    While his previous omissions from the United team have largely been due to off-field issues, form and fitness — specifically a lack of both — dictated his latest demotion.

    Rooney scored 34 goals in all competitions for United last season, but when the heat was on, he too often failed to deliver and, when Rooney underperformed, so did United.

    At Everton on Monday, when David Moyes’s team inflicted a 1-0 defeat on United, Rooney was well below-par, with his touch heavy and all-round contribution not up to standard. To many at United, it was no surprise. With his Euro 2012 involvement delaying his return to pre-season training until the final week of July, Rooney’s lack of sharpness on the pitch was evident.

    Ferguson claimed in the summer, following Rooney’s suspension-affected Euro 2012, that “if Wayne misses a couple of games, it takes him three or four to come back”. Rather than play him back to form and fitness after Everton, however, Ferguson’s decision to drop Rooney on Saturday was aimed at reminding him of the standards required to perform in the first team.

    It was also done to hand Van Persie and Kagawa the chance to prove their credentials, which they did emphatically. When Ferguson last dropped Rooney, following a boozy Boxing Day trip to Southport last season – an incident which left the manager furious with the player’s lack of focus – the player responded with 12 goals in 11 games. But Rooney’s goals last term masked a deterioration in his all-round play which was evident with England at Euro 2012. After 10 years in the game, he appears to have lost his explosive energy, the zip which once took him away from players, and the ability to energise a team with his enthusiasm.

    Ferguson noticed similar signs in Ruud van Nistelrooy and David Beckham before cutting them loose, but Rooney has always been too important to cast adrift in the past. United’s £200,000-a-week talisman now has rivals for his status as the team’s main man and his injury-enforced absence could prove to be the most important period of his career.

    He either grits his teeth, gets himself fit and embraces the challenge or risks becoming the latest United icon to join the ranks of Van Nistelrooy, Beckham and Roy Keane by stretching Ferguson’s patience too far.

    http://www.independent.ie/sport/soccer/manchester-uniteds-wayne-rooney-faces-two-months-out-after-surgery-3211888.html


  • #4243
    Owen_S
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,211 ✭✭✭Owen_S


    Rooney being out for 1-2 months really isn't the end of the world. We have RVP and Kagawa as first choice, Berba could come in and play either of their roles, we also have Welbeck and Hernandez who are more than capable of scoring goals.

    We have 3 defenders returning to fitness, and overall the squad is looking good.
    alproctor wrote: »
    Have you ever played the game?

    Using the "because he gets paid so much money" is the perplexing thing tbh.

    It's not just a matter of a repeating action like for instance, in darts or something. There a a huge amount of variables - ground conditions, weather conditions etc.

    Someone posted earlier that it is probably the fact that a lot of corner takers are trying to get the ball in at pace, probably a foot or so over the first defender that is causing so many to actually be intercepted by the front man - this was a good point.

    It would be easy to just dink it in to the penalty spot tbh, but there would be no goals from corners ever, as defenders and goalkeepers would just mop them up.

    The argument that no professional footballer should ever make a mistake because they are paid vast amounts of money is ridiculous. They are human beings, not machines.
    Yes, and I swear for every corner the ball ended up hitting me square in the knob every time I was chosen to stand on the post :mad:


  • #4244
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Ah yeah, best player out for 2 months, no biggie.


  • #4245
    Lukekul
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 527 ✭✭✭Lukekul


    Owen_S wrote: »
    Yes, and I swear for every corner the ball ended up hitting me square in the knob every time I was chosen to stand on the post :mad:

    :pac:


  • #4246
    TheDoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,141 ✭✭✭✭TheDoc


    "This...Berbatov....rising!


    Might be just the " push" Fergie and Berbatov need to come to terms and keep him in the squad for another year.


  • #4247
    DM_7
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 18,720 Mod ✭✭✭✭DM_7


    I agree that Rooney being out is not the end of the world because of RVP and Kag.

    but its still pretty bad. The way we need two players to replace him proves that. I hope he is back very soon.

    Probably no way to know how long he will be out with such a freak injury.


  • #4248
    Mikeyt086
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,825 ✭✭✭Mikeyt086


    Just watched that Rio's Video Diary, not as good as last year in the US, but still good. Absolutely had to get a screengrab of this Bebe moment, which can now be used to this thread's content.

    ou1cwo.jpg


  • #4249
    Your Airbag
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,546 ✭✭✭Your Airbag


    Originally Posted by Your Airbag viewpost.gif
    Re: Rooneys injury.

    Seven days before the sutures come out. Two weeks before he can do any extensive excercise. A month for swelling to fully stop.

    My guess is a couple of months minimum.
    Jimmy Iovine wrote: »
    We won't take your word for it :).


    :p


  • #4250
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    DM-ICE wrote: »
    I agree that Rooney being out is not the end of the world because of RVP and Kag.

    but its still pretty bad. The way we need two players to replace him proves that. I hope he is back very soon.

    Probably no way to know how long he will be out with such a freak injury.

    well plus the fact that we have only one game for the next 3 weeks, it doesnt appear so bad!

    at most i think he will miss 3 or 4 league games and maybe one european game.


  • #4251
    TheTownie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭TheTownie


    Mikeyt086 wrote: »
    Just watched that Rio's Video Diary, not as good as last year in the US, but still good. Absolutely had to get a screengrab of this Bebe moment, which can now be used to this thread's content.

    Just watched it too. At the start did they call Bebe, Bebinho? :pac:


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  • #4252
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    homerjay2005 wrote: »
    well plus the fact that we have only one game for the next 3 weeks, it doesnt appear so bad!

    at most i think he will miss 3 or 4 league games and maybe one european game.

    Looks like he could be out even longer,the cut went right to the bone.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/manchester-united/9500874/Manchester-Uniteds-Wayne-Rooney-faces-two-months-out-after-surgery-and-a-fight-for-his-place-when-he-returns.html


  • #4253
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,770 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    Ok my Dad and brother were at the game at weekend and met up with my Uncle who you might remember was person who gave me the Dembele speculation.:)

    To get to the point, apparently United did make second bid for him last week, but was turned down. Not sure how much precisely, but I know it was around 9 million. Not surprisingly turned down.

    Ferguson was keen to meet his agent last weekend in London, but after the news that Rio was out his intentions turned to buying cover in defense.(not sure though if he did meet him)

    The major flaw seems to be the agent and the wages demands and with only few days to window closes its looking more likely to be a no go now unless something very pacey begins. Spurs, Arsenal and Real have showed their interests too apparently and much will depend on agent in this one.

    You can take it for what it is. You can call it bluff if like, I dont mind, but think only fair to let you know anyway. There is always the Ignore Button too;).

    EVENFLOW



  • #4254
    Jimmy Iovine
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,416 ✭✭✭Jimmy Iovine


    Your Airbag wrote: »
    :p

    You got lucky on this one :P.

    Next time you I'll catch you out ha.


  • #4255
    TheTownie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭TheTownie


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    Ok my Dad and brother were at the game at weekend and met up with my Uncle who you might remember was person who gave me the Dembele speculation.:)

    To get to the point, apparently United did make second bid for him last week, but was turned down. Not sure how much precisely, but I know it was around 9 million. Not surprisingly turned down.

    Ferguson was keen to meet his agent last weekend in London, but after the news that Rio was out his intentions turned to buying cover in defense.(not sure though if he did meet him)

    The major flaw seems to be the agent and the wages demands and with only few days to window closes its looking more likely to be a no go now unless something very pacey begins. Spurs, Arsenal and Real have showed their interests too apparently and much will depend on agent in this one.

    You can take it for what it is. You can call it bluff if like, I dont mind, but think only fair to let you know anyway. There is always the Ignore Button too;).

    I call bluff on that bit! :P

    With Evans on the bench against Fulham and Jones back in training those two should be raring to go after the international break. Can't see why he'd be panicking about needing cover.

    Its just doesn't make sense. Dembele has said he would like to play for a top club. Real Madrid won't want him anymore after getting Modric. Hed be on modest wages at Fulham so hard to believe a reasonable figure couldn't be a agreed there. If the agent is looking for a big pay day that could be a stumbling block alright as Utd don't seem to take kindly to such requests.

    If we have put in a bid or two, it would more annoying not to get him as it means Fergies knows we could do with a cm like him but we wouldn't offer a decent price for him.


  • #4256
    sofireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭sofireland


    Only caught a little of sky sports news about united being in for their fifth signing, do we know if this is Dembele?


  • #4257
    Just An Opinion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 652 ✭✭✭Just An Opinion


    sofireland wrote: »
    Only caught a little of sky sports news about united being in for their fifth signing, do we know if this is Dembele?

    Not sure hopefully we'll have light shed on it shortly, if we got this done I would be very happy indeed, he is as close to the Yaya Toure type midfielder we need IMO.


  • #4258
    The_Kew_Tour
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34,770 ✭✭✭✭The_Kew_Tour


    TheTownie wrote: »
    I call bluff on that bit! :P

    With Evans on the bench against Fulham and Jones back in training those two should be raring to go after the international break. Can't see why he'd be panicking about needing cover.

    Its just doesn't make sense. Dembele has said he would like to play for a top club. Real Madrid won't want him anymore after getting Modric. Hed be on modest wages at Fulham so hard to believe a reasonable figure couldn't be a agreed there. If the agent is looking for a big pay day that could be a stumbling block alright as Utd don't seem to take kindly to such requests.

    If we have put in a bid or two, it would more annoying not to get him as it means Fergies knows we could do with a cm like him but we wouldn't offer a decent price for him.

    If he goes anywhere its most likely Spurs.

    EVENFLOW



  • #4259
    sofireland
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭sofireland


    As i say i only caught a minute of it, but Sky Sports seemed to leading with the Anderson to Spurs, missed the name by 30 seconds i'd say!

    Dembele really showed on Saturday what he could bring to the table, strong, good with the ball at his feet, and he impressed me thats for sure - whether it was enough for Fergie who knows


  • #4260
    TheTownie
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,177 ✭✭✭TheTownie


    The_Kew_Tour wrote: »
    If he goes anywhere its most likely Spurs.

    Aye, depressing thought.


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  • #4261
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,330 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    alproctor wrote: »
    Have you ever played the game?

    Using the "because he gets paid so much money" is the perplexing thing tbh.

    It's not just a matter of a repeating action like for instance, in darts or something. There a a huge amount of variables - ground conditions, weather conditions etc.

    Someone posted earlier that it is probably the fact that a lot of corner takers are trying to get the ball in at pace, probably a foot or so over the first defender that is causing so many to actually be intercepted by the front man - this was a good point.

    It would be easy to just dink it in to the penalty spot tbh, but there would be no goals from corners ever, as defenders and goalkeepers would just mop them up.

    The argument that no professional footballer should ever make a mistake because they are paid vast amounts of money is ridiculous. They are human beings, not machines.
    The amount of money he gets paid, is probably irrelevant to be honest. The point is they are getting paid money (i.e they are professionals) to play football.
    Professionals, allegedly at the top of their game with the best of facilities and staff available to them and nothing to do all week outside of practicising to play football.

    The "variables" you are speaking off, are:
    1. Not as variable as you make out.
    2. Only two, what are the other ones that make up this "huge" amount?
    The "variables" are nowhere near as relevant as you appear to believe. The dimensions of the pitch don't change a huge amount from game to game (they are the exact same for every home game) the ball is almost always of the exact same type (throughout a single season) the size of the box and six yard box don't change, the type of boots that you wear generally don't change (remember lots of sports science goes into this so you have the "best gear") and usually the height of your team mates doesn't change.
    I wouldn't be of the opinion that they need to get the ball into the exact same place all the time, but they should be able to ensure the ball doesn't hit the first obstacle it can hit, unless the kicker has intended this to happen.

    I don't get the point about the speed of the ball. Again, this is something that can be practised and should be practised. They are "trying" to do something, surely they try to do the exact same thing in training over and over again? Isn't that how it should work for set piece specialists?

    And what about my point about the fact that so many pro footballers have a "poor" left foot? Why do pro footballers not have the ability to train in order to improve their "bad" foot. I mean, surely this would be a great benefit over time? What are the variables involved there?

    Footballers are human, they are indeed "allowed" to make mistakes, just like the referees and officials that work with them, however consistent "mistakes", especially when it involves set pieces, isn't something that I believe should be let off.

    Yeah, I played football and a few other sports, but I never trained and played it full time with access to the best resources available and was regarded as a human at the top of my chosen profession for it.


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