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Mens Rights Thread

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Comments

  • #212
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Probably represents an increase in reporting, but who knows?
    Men seek help over violence in home

    GEORGINA O'HALLORAN

    A NATIONAL charity for men who are victims of domestic abuse has experienced a 33 per cent increase in the number of calls to its helpline in the first six months of this year.

    Amen Support Services, which is based in Navan, Co Meath, received 2,427
    calls from men to its confidential helpline between January and June, compared with 1,829 calls for the same period last year.
    Rest of article at:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0825/1224322963362.html


  • #213
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    yawha wrote: »
    I don't believe all women are victims, but based on anything I've heard or read about the industry, it is incredibly dubious. The idea that prostitutes are largely confident, intelligent, astute women who cleverly make money by selling their bodies without any issues is an unsubstantiated myth. IMO if you're selling your body, chances are you've hit absolute rock bottom.
    I don't think anyone is arguing that they are confident, intelligen, astute women as if they were they would be less likely to find themselves in need of selling their body for a living. Noone is arguing that there are no issues. having said that in places like Holland and Germany some women choose it as a career choice for better or worse.
    yawha wrote: »
    If you read the site it says that in the UK the law only penalizes men who buy sex from prostitutes controlled by pimps. This seems reasonable.
    But it also says if you buy sex from a prostitute who it subsequently turns out is controlled by a pimp you are als guilty as the lack of knowledge is no excuse.
    An 18 year old having consentual sex with another adult should be a crime then for the man (in this case)? That is your point? Rather than tackle the root of the problem the legislators want to go for the easiest option.
    yawha wrote: »
    If an 18 year old breaks the law, they break the law and should get a criminal record.
    18 year olds are not that clever. I know I wasn't when I was 18. They tend to be impulsive and not think of future consequences of their actions (which is born out by the higher level of road deaths amongst that age group). So to punish them for life for what is a man paying a woman for sex cannot be right.
    In a world where we are waking up to the fact that 'just following orders' does not excuse horrific acts, we are allowing a prosecutor to say that woman is being coerced into performing an act. When adults deal with adults I don't see how one person can be a victim and the other an aggressor.

    remember in the 80's (maybe early 90's) a group of women (prostitutes) going on the Late Late Show demanding the legalisation of the trade in Ireland. Are they victims too?


  • #214
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    yawha wrote: »
    If an 18 year old breaks the law, they break the law and should get a criminal record.
    Unless you're male, in which case you can be 13 years old, have sex with your 14 year old girlfriend and then once you hit 18, then you're charged with statutory rape.
    IMO if you're selling your body, chances are you've hit absolute rock bottom.
    Not necessarily. In Germany it is not uncommon for prostitutes to come largely from eastern Europe, for whom it is something they choose to do for three, six months or a year to earn a lot of money, before returning to their lives in Hungary, Russia, Romania or wherever.

    I'll be honest, if the genders of the sex trade (i.e. the purchasers were women rather than men) were reversed and I was 20 again, I would be sorely tempted to do a stint in a brothel in a foreign country, even if it meant having to have sex with old, fat and ugly women. Better work (and better money) than working on a building site, TBH.

    This is not to say that it's in any way a wonderful career option, but I think a lot of people make presumptions and jump to a lot of conclusions where it comes to this topic.
    If you read the site it says that in the UK the law only penalizes men who buy sex from prostitutes controlled by pimps. This seems reasonable.
    How do you define or identify that? It's like trafficking or many of the other issues related to prostitution, not to mention that it's unrealistic to lump all prostitutes together (working as a high price call girl is unlikely to be the same as being a streetwalker) - there appears to be few hard facts and a lot of dubious 'studies' out there. It's a highly politicised topic.


  • #215
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    There is another thread solely about this issue here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056736071


  • #216
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    New York Times article: "Men, Who Needs Them?"
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/25/opinion/men-who-needs-them.html

    Warning: The article and/or some of the comments underneath may annoy you.


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  • #217
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    All perfectly factual, I don't really see what it has to do with men's rights though, unless you foresee women changing their sexuality en masse and exclusively techno-lesbian separatist societies emerging, replacing all established civilization.

    I doubt it, personally.


  • #218
    matthew8
    Registered Users Posts: 9,599 ✭✭✭matthew8


    yawha wrote: »
    All perfectly factual, I don't really see what it has to do with men's rights though, unless you foresee women changing their sexuality en masse and exclusively techno-lesbian separatist societies emerging, replacing all established civilization.

    I doubt it, personally.

    It's to do with how men are seen in society. The idea that men play no part in reproduction is somehow gaining traction which is highly degrading towards men, and every bit as degrading as saying that women are only useful for reproduction. It's ideas like these that keep men from seeing their kids after divorce.


  • #219
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    yawha wrote: »
    All perfectly factual, I don't really see what it has to do with men's rights though, unless you foresee women changing their sexuality en masse and exclusively techno-lesbian separatist societies emerging, replacing all established civilization.
    So by that logic that views such as that women are essentially "baby-making machines" in Japan are openly expressed in the public domain are rare anomalies that do not in any way reflect Japanese attitudes twoards sexual equality.

    No doubt such attitudes have no baring whatsoever of women's rights there...


  • #220
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    So by that logic that views such as that women are essentially "baby-making machines" in Japan are openly expressed in the public domain are rare anomalies that do not in any way reflect Japanese attitudes twoards sexual equality.

    No doubt such attitudes have no baring whatsoever of women's rights there...

    Well I for one believe in Free Speech, so "openly expressed in the public domain" is a welcome thing, a welcome I give to any view on any topic.

    This is a tabloidesque article picked up from the wires and is driven by the desperate birth rate in Japan right now. It plays absolutely no part in any public debate over women's rights in Japan whatsoever and is just fodder for the feminist legions.


  • #221
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Piliger wrote: »
    Well I for one believe in Free Speech, so "openly expressed in the public domain" is a welcome thing, a welcome I give to any view on any topic.

    This is a tabloidesque article picked up from the wires and is driven by the desperate birth rate in Japan right now. It plays absolutely no part in any public debate over women's rights in Japan whatsoever and is just fodder for the feminist legions.
    I think I may have explained myself poorly.

    I am not opposing free speech in any way, however I am noting that if a popular, and respected, publication is willing to print such an article, of if an elected senior member of the government may openly make such views known, then they are often indicative of societal attitudes as a whole.

    After all, would an article supporting slavery or expressing anti-Semitic views be similarly published? No, because not only is there no public support for such views, but to publish them would result in a severe and public backlash.

    But if no such backlash takes place, then one must conclude that the prejudices contained in such an article have sufficient public support to stop this from occurring. Many of the comments following the article would back this up.

    Ironically, in the case of Mr. Yanagisawa's comments, these ultimately helped to bring him down (although he was quite gaff prone, so it was just another straw on the donkey's back). Dr. Hampikian, on the other hand, has had no such troubles, which disturbingly points to such views being somehow more acceptable.

    As such, if such misandrist attitudes are prevalent within society, one would have to be in complete denial to claim that they do not impact men's rights in a democracy - vox populi, vox dei, after all.

    As to Dr. Hampikian's article, reading through it I would note that one will not have too long to literally reverse the genders with equal validity; all that we're missing is the development of an artificial womb. Indeed, if you have enough money (probably about €75k, I believe), you can already dispense with a 'mother' through the purchase of a doner egg and hiring of a surrogate.


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  • #222
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Interesting piece:
    "I need the men’s rights movement because.."
    http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/i-need-the-mens-rights-movement-because/


  • #223
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Pawwed Rig wrote: »
    I just found this groups website

    http://www.turnofftheredlight.ie/about/

    They are campaigning for the purchasers of prostitution to be prosecuted rather than the prostitutes themselves. Now don't get me wrong, I realise that there are a portion of girls being forced into prostitution against their wishes and believe it should be dealt with but is criminalising the user the solution which is in effect saying it is ok for a woman to sell sex but not ok for a man to buy it.

    To give an analogy of drug use. In Ireland dealers are dealt with much more harshly than the common user. Now some dealers could be called victims too but we have no sympathy for them. But if the same logic were applied we would be saying drug dealing is ok, we should eliminate the demand.

    Is it another case of because it is a woman we will criminalise the man?
    For anyone interested in the topic: I only found out yesterday one can make anonymous submissions on the prostitution consultation. There's not much time (they have to be in by 5pm Friday) but one doesn't have to read the consultation document.


  • #224
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I think I may have explained myself poorly.

    I am not opposing free speech in any way, however I am noting that if a popular, and respected, publication is willing to print such an article, of if an elected senior member of the government may openly make such views known, then they are often indicative of societal attitudes as a whole.

    I am not unsympathetic with your views as a whole but this is simply wrong. In a country with a wide variety of media outlets and political views such as Japan, it is crazy to think that only articles that are "indicative of societal attitudes as a whole" are printed, or opined by even senior members of the Gov.
    Look at Ireland for example and you only have to open the Indo or the other main newspapers to find some crazy articles that absolutely so NOT reflect our society's attitudes, and the regular nonsense views coughed up by some inane junior minister or even minister from time to time.

    I believe you read too much into the significance of these views and the role of the Media - who often take delight in publishing provocative articles simple to sell newspapers and advertising.


  • #225
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Just to point out that there are forums on the internet for discussing men's rights matters. A relatively big one is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/
    There are also other related forums on reddit.com.

    I'm not sure I've come across any with an Irish focus/subforum/many Irish people there to discuss matters in Ireland, unfortunately. Anyone know any? I'm particularly interested in ones that don't have a fathers' rights focus but feel free to let me know about any ones you are aware of.


  • #226
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Oh god, not r/mensrights...


  • #227
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    yawha wrote: »
    Oh god, not r/mensrights...
    Deep man, very deep.


  • #228
    Woodward
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    iptba wrote: »
    Just to point out that there are forums on the internet for discussing men's rights matters. A relatively big one is here: http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/
    There are also other related forums on reddit.com.

    I'm not sure I've come across any with an Irish focus/subforum/many Irish people there to discuss matters in Ireland, unfortunately. Anyone know any? I'm particularly interested in ones that don't have a fathers' rights focus but feel free to let me know about any ones you are aware of.


    There are a couple of Irish redditors in r/mensrights but I think thats about it


  • #229
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Regarding the prostitution consultation, I've just finished a draft submission. Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's 2586 words so shouldn't take too long to read. Thanks.

    ETA: Somebody PMed me about how to make a submission. I posted the details here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80471206&postcount=91


  • #230
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    I, along with many others, consider r/mensrights to be one of the worst, most hateful places on the internet. It is everything that's wrong with men's rights groups.

    I'm a fan of r/OneY.


  • #231
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    yawha wrote: »
    It is everything that's wrong with men's rights groups.
    Perhaps you could say what you would like them doing? It's not particularly clear to me from your posts you think men's rights groups need to exist (but it's hard to remember everything you've said). If you disagree that they need to exist, it wouldn't be surpising if you disliked it.

    You still did not give many details in your second post except you dislike it, along with some other random people too, and believe it's hateful but then you dislike a lot of the points I and other with an interest in men's rights make on tGC and don't seem to like to see feminism criticised.

    I'm fairly new (e.g. haven't posted a thread and read maybe a dozen) but there seems to be lots of different opinions and if one dislikes an opinion one can mark it down. On one thread I read yesterday, some people seem to have had bad experiences with relationships e.g. were charged for domestic violence even though they were the victims, or said that even though they were victims of domestic violence, it didn't help in terms of gaining access to children as the attitude is that their ex-partner won't be able to harm them if they are separated. So I thought some of the advice given to one person was a bit coloured by those experiences but other people gave other opinions.

    Anyway, I didn't know about oneY so will check it out.

    ETA: First look at oneY:
    Thread topic
    Dear oneY, for a forum that discusses "what it means to be a male," why does >50% of posts devolve into the merits of feminism?

    Seriously. There are other reddits for that. Some men may choose to be feminist, and that's fine and dandy, but I'm seeing other men bullied and down voted for expressing dissenting opinions on feminism. All men's experiences should be welcomed, and all men's voices should be heard. But for some reason 90% of what I read hear is discussion about how men hurt/abuse/objectify/blah blah blah women.


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  • #232
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    I mean, you can make your mind up about it yourself. In my experience there's a lot of hatred expressed on there and the discussions tend not to be constructive.

    I think men's rights groups need to exist. However, I think they should not exist in direct opposition to feminism, and most of the issues I would tend to care about aren't generally addressed by current groups. e.g. I don't really give a damn about protecting men who use prostitutes, but I do care about the fact that if I wanted to wear a skirt, or makeup, or if I were to cry in public, or watch certain tv/movies, or listen to certain types of music, I would be mocked and my sexuality questioned for doing so.

    In fact, I often get the impression that many men's rights groups are directly opposed to these sorts of issues. They tend to be for certain rights for men, like father's rights, circumcision, anti-positive discrimination for women etc., but also very for the idea that the genders are different and should act differently, and that men who don't act in accordance with what they expect are "manginas" or other such bullshit.


  • #233
    Woodward
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    yawha wrote: »
    I mean, you can make your mind up about it yourself. In my experience there's a lot of hatred expressed on there and the discussions tend not to be constructive.

    I think men's rights groups need to exist. However, I think they should not exist in direct opposition to feminism, and most of the issues I would tend to care about aren't generally addressed by current groups. e.g. I don't really give a damn about protecting men who use prostitutes, but I do care about the fact that if I wanted to wear a skirt, or makeup, or if I were to cry in public, or watch certain tv/movies, or listen to certain types of music, I would be mocked and my sexuality questioned for doing so.

    In fact, I often get the impression that many men's rights groups are directly opposed to these sorts of issues. They tend to be for certain rights for men, like father's rights, circumcision, anti-positive discrimination for women etc., but also very for the idea that the genders are different and should act differently, and that men who don't act in accordance with what they expect are "manginas" or other such bullshit.

    'Mangina' usually refers to a guy who devalues himself or the male gender to appease women or feminist ideology. Most mens groups support the dissolution of gender roles but focus on more pressing issues such as legal discrimination


  • #234
    yawha
    Closed Accounts Posts: 695 ✭✭✭yawha


    Respectfully, not in the contexts I've seen it used. It's an awful word with all sorts of problematic connotations based on it's etymology alone which should never be used anyway.

    Maybe some do support the dissolution of gender roles, but I never really get that feeling when I read men's rights forums or articles.


  • #235
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    Woodward wrote: »
    'Mangina' usually refers to a guy who devalues himself or the male gender to appease women or feminist ideology.
    It's not a word I think I've ever used. But if anyone has any suggestions for any other word/compound word/phrase that might communicate the same idea, it would be useful. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and how people do things; more difficult to do the same thing in a better way.

    Also, sometimes people may disagree with a particular word because they don't actually like the concept, and might want to censor the use of the concept.


  • #236
    Woodward
    Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    iptba wrote: »
    It's not a word I think I've ever used. But if anyone has any suggestions for any other word/compound word/phrase that might communicate the same idea, it would be useful. It's easy to sit on the sidelines and how people do things; more difficult to do the same thing in a better way.

    Also, sometimes people may disagree with a particular word because they don't actually like the concept, and might want to censor the use of the concept.

    White knight is another term used for it which I prefer personally. I dont really like mangina as it is offensive to many transexuals


  • #237
    Piliger
    Registered Users Posts: 6,741 ✭✭✭Piliger


    yawha wrote: »
    I mean, you can make your mind up about it yourself. In my experience there's a lot of hatred expressed on there and the discussions tend not to be constructive.

    I think men's rights groups need to exist. However, I think they should not exist in direct opposition to feminism, and most of the issues I would tend to care about aren't generally addressed by current groups. e.g. I don't really give a damn about protecting men who use prostitutes, but I do care about the fact that if I wanted to wear a skirt, or makeup, or if I were to cry in public, or watch certain tv/movies, or listen to certain types of music, I would be mocked and my sexuality questioned for doing so.

    In fact, I often get the impression that many men's rights groups are directly opposed to these sorts of issues. They tend to be for certain rights for men, like father's rights, circumcision, anti-positive discrimination for women etc., but also very for the idea that the genders are different and should act differently, and that men who don't act in accordance with what they expect are "manginas" or other such bullshit.

    I don't agree with anything you say here. Men's groups have to constantly battle against militant feminism which is actively opposed to men's rights as well as being abusive and belittling too. There is an enormous amount of misandrous hatred among many of the militant feminist groups. Men's right's groups, like the early women's groups, also often have to deal with a lot of really ghastly experiences suffered by men and as a result emotions can run high.

    When you support the rights of a group of people you can't just cherry pick what rights to support and what to dismiss, as you do. You don't personally approve of men who use prostitutes, and neither do I - but I don't limit my concern for people's rights solely to those I agree with. In fact it is the people who we disapprove of in society who have the greatest need to be afforded fairness, justice and equal rights and I myself would be happy to march for the rights of lots of people I personally disapprove of.

    Men's rights groups suffer from this major apathy from men who think, like you appear to, that it's all about 'other' people and not about us. It may be other people today but it may be you tomorrow - and that is why men should open their minds to putting their minds and support together to support men's rights across the board.


  • #238
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    iptba wrote: »
    Regarding the prostitution consultation, I've just finished a draft submission. Would anybody be willing to have a look over it and get back to me with any comments/suggestions including on typos (you don't have to be thorough if you don't want to be)? It's 2586 words so shouldn't take too long to read. Thanks.

    ETA: Somebody PMed me about how to make a submission. I posted the details here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80471206&postcount=91
    Ok, sent mine in. I had only got one person who offered to look at it [my draft] but they didn't get to read it in the end because a deadline came up.

    E-mail address is: justiceanddefence@oir.ie. Even a few lines would add more voices to the debate.
    Best to explicitly say you want to be anonymous if that's what you want.

    ETA: If there is any place to post submissions, I'd like to know about it so I could post my submission. As I recall, they don't have to post all submissons/make them all public; I've a feeling they might not make mine public. Also, it'd be good to have arguments out there soon so they can be discussed and perhaps others may use e.g. in oral testimony, some of the points made in written testimony.


  • #239
    Pawwed Rig
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 22,289 CMod ✭✭✭✭Pawwed Rig


    I sent in a small representation. I have an exam coming up next week so didn't get a whole lot of time to spend on it but as you say even a few lines add to the debate.

    On Yahoo first thing this morning

    1.6m people support new legislation.

    It took the total of all the unions whose heads backed it a presumed that there was 100% support. Unbelievable.


  • #240
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    yawha wrote: »
    I think men's rights groups need to exist. However, I think they should not exist in direct opposition to feminism, and most of the issues I would tend to care about aren't generally addressed by current groups.
    I think you are presuming that any criticism or opposition to Feminism must be as a result of a traditional or patriarchal viewpoint. That's simply a prejudice on your part.

    That there are plenty of misogynistic Men's rights groups out there cannot be denied, yet there are also plenty of misandrist Feminist groups out there too - oddly though, if I were to try to tar all Feminism with the same brush, I've no doubt you'd run to Feminism's defence.

    My own 'opposition' to Feminism is that it is a partisan ideology that serves the interests of one gender while claiming to support equality, which is ultimately untenable. To date I have not heard any argument that would refute this from a supporter of Feminism.


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  • #241
    iptba
    Registered Users Posts: 4,873 ✭✭✭iptba


    There may be a better thread to post this, but on a quick look I couldn't see one. I'm happy to move it elsewhere (or mods can if they want) but thought I'd post it somewhere:

    From Irish Times, Tuesday Sept 4:

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2012/0904/1224323573384.html

    Sir, – Kathy Sheridan’s feature “Bosses, babies and body hair” (Weekend
    Review, September 1st), in which she interviewed several women about work-life
    balance, raised some interesting questions about how we see women’s roles in
    modern-day Ireland. What struck me about the article was how these women clearly
    wanted to work and succeed in the workplace, but also felt a duty to be the
    primary caregiver for their family and felt that sacrificing their career at
    some stage would be inevitable. This is rarely a problem men face, because it’s
    rarely an expectation that society has of men. If women want to be able to “have
    it all”, then we need to have a society which is equally as comfortable with men
    being caregivers and making career sacrifices as we are with women doing so.

    At the moment those men that do want to take a more active role in caring for
    their children have little to no rights to their child if unmarried to the
    child’s mother, and even if married, family courts still favour mothers over
    fathers in the majority of custody disputes. A Luxembourg-style parental leave
    system (six months’ leave each for the mother and father, in addition to
    maternity leave) or something similar would surely shift society’s view of the
    role of child-rearing toward one that is more equally divided between mother and
    father. “Women’s issues” do not exist in a vacuum completely separate from
    “men’s issues”; it is time we let men take on the family roles they want to
    fulfil. Maybe then both genders will be able to “have it all”. – Yours, etc,


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