Realistically, can a protest be organised that makes a difference?

girl in the striped socks · 25-08-2012 05:44PM #1

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

Pa Dee · 25-08-2012 05:45PM

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

No

partyatmygaff · 25-08-2012 05:47PM

What kind of protest?

A protest to air your discontent is fine but without offering any realistic alternative solutions it'll be a complete waste of time.
A protest to rebel and remove the government would just be a recipe for disaster and will put the country in an even worse position.

Failing that it will just be an aimless group of people venting on the streets. Not particularly useful.

No one wants to be put under more financial pressure but when the state is under massive financial pressure there's not a lot that the government can do but minimise it and pass it on to their citizens. If you or anyone else have better methods of doing that, by all means make them get heard but simply going out and saying "NO MORE TAX!!! NO MORE LEVIES!!!" is a bit pathetic.

brummytom · 25-08-2012 05:49PM

No.

I was on a march (as a child, with my family) against the Iraq war. We travelled down to London for it, and were part of a crowd of 1 million people (1 in every 60 people in the country!), and that was just one of a number of protests across the country.

Did the government listen to the biggest protest ever? Did they fuck. Governments can do what they like.

Cool Mo D · 25-08-2012 05:55PM

Since there have been loads, then yes.

For a protest to work, you must have a very specific, achievable measure for success backed up by people that the government sees as possible supporters.

Look at the protests against means testing the medical card for the over 70s - specific goal, backed up with political support from a big important block of voters: success.

Compare with occupy Dame street - no single clear stated goal, principally supported by people who would never vote for government parties no matter what they do: easily ignored.

Chuck Stone · 25-08-2012 05:58PM

Yes.

The French Trucker's strike shut down the country.

If Lorry drivers ever decide to strike in this country they would cripple the economy - I think upwards of 95% of freight travels by Lorry here.

christmas2012 · 25-08-2012 05:58PM

organise a nation wide petition and bring it to the dail..

Professey Chin · 25-08-2012 05:59PM

The pensioners managed a few years ago over the medical cards.
But governments are scared of old people since they have nothing else to do but complain & vote

Stinicker · 25-08-2012 06:01PM

The only protest any government will understand is armed conflict, Catholics did not get Civil rights in Northern Ireland through negotiations, they got it because people were brave enough to fight and die for what they believed in.

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

partyatmygaff · 25-08-2012 06:01PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

organise a nation wide petition and bring it to the dail..

To do or request what exactly? Pointless protests have no value but comedic value for those watching.

RobbingBandit · 25-08-2012 06:02PM

No, the various rent a mob factions join in with many only out to cause trouble thus discrediting any protests. We Irish are a fickle bunch always resenting each other meaning no group will ever form that consists of all walks of life.

marienbad · 25-08-2012 06:03PM

Stinicker wrote: »

The only protest any government will understand is armed conflict, Catholics did not get Civil rights in Northern Ireland through negotiations, they got it because people were brave enough to fight and die for what they believed in.

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

Brilliant ! and afterwards we won't owe anything but we won't own anything either , but we can always go dancing at the crossroads.

Colmustard · 25-08-2012 06:04PM

I think the government is doing what it HAS to do, at last we have a competent government. We really can't go on borrowing and we have to get our independence back.

Chuck Stone · 25-08-2012 06:05PM

brummytom wrote: »

I was on a march (as a child, with my family) against the Iraq war.

Did the government listen to the biggest protest ever? Did they fuck. Governments can do what they like.

Yeah, that was a balls. That's one of the problems with parliamentary democracy I guess. Special interests will influence government to get what they want and pass on the costs to the public.

Fair play to the people of the UK though for speaking up against 'Tony Blair's War' - that's what British soldiers called it according to Robert Fisk.

Biggins · 25-08-2012 06:05PM

As other have stated, in some cases "Yes" (French examples, old age pensioners or even to some extent, the Dublin Airport Taxi "go slow" protests) or "No" (Fathers Rights, legalise drugs, Crumlin Hospital services/ward closures, etc protests).

It all depends on the issue how determined those involved are, their effectiveness and more importantly, how much a certain issue effects the rest of the country and will it mean local politicians at the next election might lose votes!

If a politician is found to be exposed and he/she might lose votes later (and they know it!) - you can bet your arse they suddenly might change their minds about something.

partyatmygaff · 25-08-2012 06:06PM

Stinicker wrote: »

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

Do you have any idea what's going on in Syria, Libya or Egypt? Even Egypt which had the earliest revolution of the three and has progressed the most since then is still in a worse state than before the revolution.

The situation in any one of those three countries is so far removed from the situation over here that it's almost crazy to compare the two.

christmas2012 · 25-08-2012 06:07PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

To do or request what exactly? Pointless protests have no value but comedic value for those watching.

At least they are trying,its better to try then not put in any effort,and petitions in the past have worked,basically you get everyone to sign a form and hand it into the dail you could send these forms door to door or via post nationwide,get people interested and get them feeling that they are not powerless anymroe,which is the general feeling amongst the public,if you tap into that people will want to participate in it,bc of the feeling of powerlessness due to governments passing bills over our head without our say so..

People who genuinely take part in protests are to be commended for their good efforts..

partyatmygaff · 25-08-2012 06:12PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

At least they are trying,its better to try then not put in any effort,and petitions in the past have worked,basically you get everyone to sign a form and hand it into the dail you could send these forms door to door or via post nationwide,get people interested and get them feeling that they are not powerless anymroe,which is the general feeling amongst the public,if you tap into that people will want to participate in it,bc of the feeling of powerlessness due to governments passing bills over our head without our say so..

People who genuinely take part in protests are to be commended for their good efforts..

Not really.

People who waste everyone's time with pointless protests that don't even have clear aims let alone solutions aren't doing any good for anyone. It may make them feel like they're doing something but all they're actually doing is obstructing day-to-day life.

On the other hand... people who launch petitions or protests with clear aims and offer the government solutions to the problems the country faces *are* doing something to improve the country. They're the ones to be commended. Not the aimless mobs shouting unrealistic demands that could never possibly be met.

Guy:Incognito · 25-08-2012 06:15PM

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.

What is this crazy new news? I cant believe they didnt tell us last year we'd have 3 harsh budgets coming . Oh wait...............

tommyboy2222 · 25-08-2012 06:16PM

I'm currently protesting by refusing to pay the household charge.

That's been a reasonably successful protest.

Walking around town shouting slogans does sweet f all as far as I am concerned.

christmas2012 · 25-08-2012 06:18PM

partyatmygaff,i thought the household charge protests were valid,as there should NOT be a charge for household,only water.Not a charge on the valuation of your house,some people have bought and paid for their houses fair and square and should not be charged on some bogus claim that its needed for council work,listen we have potholes littered all over our road like spots on a teens back,and the councils did nothing to move their arse and get it sorted since the charge came in..

Biggins · 25-08-2012 06:23PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not really.

People who waste everyone's time with pointless protests that don't even have clear aims let alone solutions aren't doing any good for anyone.

Are you saying that protesting as I did a number of times for Crumlins Children Hospital in Dublin, was pointless?

We were looking for the reinstatement of the 9 million they cut from their budget and/or asked that the 10 million they were going to allocate weeks later on a Dublin bike track (to keep Green party voters happy before they voted in the RDS, to keep the party in government at the time) to be deferred at the very least!

For the record: the bike track won - a national childrens hospital lost.

Frankly, I'd be insulted if anyone thought that protest would have at least been pointless!

marienbad · 25-08-2012 06:23PM

christmas2012 wrote: »

partyatmygaff,i thought the household charge protests were valid,as there should NOT be a charge for household,only water.Not a charge on the valuation of your house,some people have bought and paid for their houses fair and square and should not be charged on some bogus claim that its needed for council work,listen we have potholes littered all over our road like spots on a teens back,and the councils did nothing to move their arse and get it sorted since the charge came in..

A property tax is one of the fairest taxes there is as long as it dos'nt become a poll tax.

partyatmygaff · 25-08-2012 06:27PM

Biggins wrote: »

Are you saying that protesting as I did a number of times for Crumlins Children Hospital in Dublin, was pointless?

We were looking for the reinstatement of the 9 million they cut from their budget and/or asked that the 10 million they were going to allocate weeks later on a Dublin bike track (to keep Green party voters happy before they voted in the RDS, to keep the party in government at the time) to be deferred at the very least!

For the record: the bike track won - a national childrens hospital lost.

That's very different. The protest you were at and the household tax protest had very clear aims. One was to divert cuts away from necessary healthcare budgets and another was to divert new taxes away from people's homes.

The protests i'm talking about are messes like Occupy Dame Street and the occasional vague "No more tax increases" and "No more cuts" protests.

JustAThought · 25-08-2012 06:28PM

Hardly.

But to party hacks that's what they'll keep shouting.

People that work, don't scab off the state for a lifetime and have ambition and goals are always the easy target.

Let's all down tools, lie on the dole, work in the black economy and demand free houses off the state so; or a handout for having children and not being married or working... that appears to be the lack of effort and endeavour that is consistantly rewarded in this country .

christmas2012 · 25-08-2012 06:30PM

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

I'm currently protesting by refusing to pay the household charge.

That's been a reasonably successful protest.

Walking around town shouting slogans does sweet f all as far as I am concerned.

i understand where youre coming from on that tommyboy,but if people got organised and started a nationwide petition to hand into the dail that would be a valid and civilised way of prostest and could be effective..

Biggins · 25-08-2012 06:33PM

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's very different. The protest you were at and the household tax protest had very clear aims. One was to divert cuts away from necessary healthcare budgets and another was to divert new taxes away from people's homes.

The protests i'm talking about are messes like Occupy Dame Street and the occasional vague "No more tax increases" and "No more cuts" protests.

I get what your trying to say.

I feel for a protest to stand any chance of being anyway successful, there HAS to be a clear benefit for the nation or the showing, the exposing of a penalty/position which all (or a good lot and/or an important sector such as nurses/gardi/fire-fighters) might then suffer from.

Solutions don't always have to be given though however - sometimes possible effects exposed in proposals, is enough also to turn heads also in decision making.

tommyboy2222 · 25-08-2012 06:46PM

i understand where youre coming from on that tommyboy,but if people got organised and started a nationwide petition to hand into the dail that would be a valid and civilised way of prostest and could be effective..

I'm not sure about that. The only thing that could be effective is something that politicians think will cost them votes.

An example of this was when FF did a cowardly u-turn on the medical card for wealthy pensioners. They feared losing votes.

lugha · 25-08-2012 06:54PM

Biggins wrote: »

I feel for a protest to stand any chance of being anyway successful, there HAS to be a clear benefit for the nation

Alas, I don’t think that is at all true. Protests for some selfish reasons CAN and do succeed simply because the protesters are well organised and / or have political leverage. The afore mentioned grey campaign to retain the medical card for pensioners, who could well afford to pay it themselves remember, was successfully for example. (Bizarrely, this success was broadly celebrated by the public, who seemingly failed to grasp that they would be paying for this victory with higher taxes / lower welfare etc.).

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

Biggins · 25-08-2012 07:09PM

lugha wrote: »

Alas, I don’t think that is at all true. Protests for some selfish reasons CAN and do succeed simply because the protesters are well organised and / or have political leverage. The afore mentioned grey campaign to retain the medical card for pensioners, who could well afford to pay it themselves remember, was successfully for example. (Bizarrely, this success was broadly celebrated by the public, who seemingly failed to grasp that they would be paying for this victory with higher taxes / lower welfare etc.).

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

Granted, if a protest is organised well enough and enough people are seriously made angered enough, to be then REALLY motivated to get out and march, a protest march can be successful.
The homework previous to this MUST be done and done well first though.
A rushed protest is oft times lending itself to 'fail' if the ground work is shaky alone.

In the examples you give above, someone seriously did their homework first.
It clearly helps.

Chuck Stone · 25-08-2012 07:10PM

lugha wrote: »

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

This is true.

It's the logic of collective action and economics of concentrated benefits versus diffuse costs.

Realistically, can a protest be organised that makes a difference?

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