Realistically, can a protest be organised that makes a difference?

girl in the striped socks

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

Pa Dee

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

No

partyatmygaff

What kind of protest?

A protest to air your discontent is fine but without offering any realistic alternative solutions it'll be a complete waste of time.
A protest to rebel and remove the government would just be a recipe for disaster and will put the country in an even worse position.

Failing that it will just be an aimless group of people venting on the streets. Not particularly useful.

No one wants to be put under more financial pressure but when the state is under massive financial pressure there's not a lot that the government can do but minimise it and pass it on to their citizens. If you or anyone else have better methods of doing that, by all means make them get heard but simply going out and saying "NO MORE TAX!!! NO MORE LEVIES!!!" is a bit pathetic.

brummytom

No.


I was on a march (as a child, with my family) against the Iraq war. We travelled down to London for it, and were part of a crowd of 1 million people (1 in every 60 people in the country!), and that was just one of a number of protests across the country.

Did the government listen to the biggest protest ever? Did they fuck. Governments can do what they like.

Cool Mo D

Since there have been loads, then yes.

For a protest to work, you must have a very specific, achievable measure for success backed up by people that the government sees as possible supporters.

Look at the protests against means testing the medical card for the over 70s - specific goal, backed up with political support from a big important block of voters: success.

Compare with occupy Dame street - no single clear stated goal, principally supported by people who would never vote for government parties no matter what they do: easily ignored.

Chuck Stone

Yes.

The French Trucker's strike shut down the country.

If Lorry drivers ever decide to strike in this country they would cripple the economy - I think upwards of 95% of freight travels by Lorry here.

christmas2012

organise a nation wide petition and bring it to the dail..

Professey Chin

The pensioners managed a few years ago over the medical cards.
But governments are scared of old people since they have nothing else to do but complain & vote

Stinicker

The only protest any government will understand is armed conflict, Catholics did not get Civil rights in Northern Ireland through negotiations, they got it because people were brave enough to fight and die for what they believed in.

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

partyatmygaff

christmas2012 wrote: »

organise a nation wide petition and bring it to the dail..

To do or request what exactly? Pointless protests have no value but comedic value for those watching.

RobbingBandit

No, the various rent a mob factions join in with many only out to cause trouble thus discrediting any protests. We Irish are a fickle bunch always resenting each other meaning no group will ever form that consists of all walks of life.

marienbad

Stinicker wrote: »

The only protest any government will understand is armed conflict, Catholics did not get Civil rights in Northern Ireland through negotiations, they got it because people were brave enough to fight and die for what they believed in.

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

Brilliant ! and afterwards we won't owe anything but we won't own anything either , but we can always go dancing at the crossroads.

Colmustard

I think the government is doing what it HAS to do, at last we have a competent government. We really can't go on borrowing and we have to get our independence back.

Chuck Stone

brummytom wrote: »

I was on a march (as a child, with my family) against the Iraq war.

Did the government listen to the biggest protest ever? Did they fuck. Governments can do what they like.

Yeah, that was a balls. That's one of the problems with parliamentary democracy I guess. Special interests will influence government to get what they want and pass on the costs to the public.

Fair play to the people of the UK though for speaking up against 'Tony Blair's War' - that's what British soldiers called it according to Robert Fisk.

Biggins

As other have stated, in some cases "Yes" (French examples, old age pensioners or even to some extent, the Dublin Airport Taxi "go slow" protests) or "No" (Fathers Rights, legalise drugs, Crumlin Hospital services/ward closures, etc protests).

It all depends on the issue how determined those involved are, their effectiveness and more importantly, how much a certain issue effects the rest of the country and will it mean local politicians at the next election might lose votes!

If a politician is found to be exposed and he/she might lose votes later (and they know it!) - you can bet your arse they suddenly might change their minds about something.

partyatmygaff

Stinicker wrote: »

What is needed in Ireland is a total rebellion similar to Syria, Libya and Egypt. Peaceful protest will only win moral victories.

Do you have any idea what's going on in Syria, Libya or Egypt? Even Egypt which had the earliest revolution of the three and has progressed the most since then is still in a worse state than before the revolution.

The situation in any one of those three countries is so far removed from the situation over here that it's almost crazy to compare the two.

christmas2012

partyatmygaff wrote: »

To do or request what exactly? Pointless protests have no value but comedic value for those watching.

At least they are trying,its better to try then not put in any effort,and petitions in the past have worked,basically you get everyone to sign a form and hand it into the dail you could send these forms door to door or via post nationwide,get people interested and get them feeling that they are not powerless anymroe,which is the general feeling amongst the public,if you tap into that people will want to participate in it,bc of the feeling of powerlessness due to governments passing bills over our head without our say so..

People who genuinely take part in protests are to be commended for their good efforts..

partyatmygaff

christmas2012 wrote: »

At least they are trying,its better to try then not put in any effort,and petitions in the past have worked,basically you get everyone to sign a form and hand it into the dail you could send these forms door to door or via post nationwide,get people interested and get them feeling that they are not powerless anymroe,which is the general feeling amongst the public,if you tap into that people will want to participate in it,bc of the feeling of powerlessness due to governments passing bills over our head without our say so..

People who genuinely take part in protests are to be commended for their good efforts..

Not really.

People who waste everyone's time with pointless protests that don't even have clear aims let alone solutions aren't doing any good for anyone. It may make them feel like they're doing something but all they're actually doing is obstructing day-to-day life.

On the other hand... people who launch petitions or protests with clear aims and offer the government solutions to the problems the country faces *are* doing something to improve the country. They're the ones to be commended. Not the aimless mobs shouting unrealistic demands that could never possibly be met.

Guy:Incognito

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.

What is this crazy new news? I cant believe they didnt tell us last year we'd have 3 harsh budgets coming . Oh wait...............

tommyboy2222

I'm currently protesting by refusing to pay the household charge.

That's been a reasonably successful protest.

Walking around town shouting slogans does sweet f all as far as I am concerned.

christmas2012

partyatmygaff,i thought the household charge protests were valid,as there should NOT be a charge for household,only water.Not a charge on the valuation of your house,some people have bought and paid for their houses fair and square and should not be charged on some bogus claim that its needed for council work,listen we have potholes littered all over our road like spots on a teens back,and the councils did nothing to move their arse and get it sorted since the charge came in..

Biggins

partyatmygaff wrote: »

Not really.

People who waste everyone's time with pointless protests that don't even have clear aims let alone solutions aren't doing any good for anyone.

Are you saying that protesting as I did a number of times for Crumlins Children Hospital in Dublin, was pointless?

We were looking for the reinstatement of the 9 million they cut from their budget and/or asked that the 10 million they were going to allocate weeks later on a Dublin bike track (to keep Green party voters happy before they voted in the RDS, to keep the party in government at the time) to be deferred at the very least!

For the record: the bike track won - a national childrens hospital lost.

Frankly, I'd be insulted if anyone thought that protest would have at least been pointless!

marienbad

christmas2012 wrote: »

partyatmygaff,i thought the household charge protests were valid,as there should NOT be a charge for household,only water.Not a charge on the valuation of your house,some people have bought and paid for their houses fair and square and should not be charged on some bogus claim that its needed for council work,listen we have potholes littered all over our road like spots on a teens back,and the councils did nothing to move their arse and get it sorted since the charge came in..

A property tax is one of the fairest taxes there is as long as it dos'nt become a poll tax.

partyatmygaff

Biggins wrote: »

Are you saying that protesting as I did a number of times for Crumlins Children Hospital in Dublin, was pointless?

We were looking for the reinstatement of the 9 million they cut from their budget and/or asked that the 10 million they were going to allocate weeks later on a Dublin bike track (to keep Green party voters happy before they voted in the RDS, to keep the party in government at the time) to be deferred at the very least!

For the record: the bike track won - a national childrens hospital lost.

That's very different. The protest you were at and the household tax protest had very clear aims. One was to divert cuts away from necessary healthcare budgets and another was to divert new taxes away from people's homes.

The protests i'm talking about are messes like Occupy Dame Street and the occasional vague "No more tax increases" and "No more cuts" protests.

JustAThought

Hardly.

But to party hacks that's what they'll keep shouting.

People that work, don't scab off the state for a lifetime and have ambition and goals are always the easy target.

Let's all down tools, lie on the dole, work in the black economy and demand free houses off the state so; or a handout for having children and not being married or working... that appears to be the lack of effort and endeavour that is consistantly rewarded in this country .

christmas2012

tommyboy2222 wrote: »

I'm currently protesting by refusing to pay the household charge.

That's been a reasonably successful protest.

Walking around town shouting slogans does sweet f all as far as I am concerned.

i understand where youre coming from on that tommyboy,but if people got organised and started a nationwide petition to hand into the dail that would be a valid and civilised way of prostest and could be effective..

Biggins

partyatmygaff wrote: »

That's very different. The protest you were at and the household tax protest had very clear aims. One was to divert cuts away from necessary healthcare budgets and another was to divert new taxes away from people's homes.

The protests i'm talking about are messes like Occupy Dame Street and the occasional vague "No more tax increases" and "No more cuts" protests.

I get what your trying to say.

I feel for a protest to stand any chance of being anyway successful, there HAS to be a clear benefit for the nation or the showing, the exposing of a penalty/position which all (or a good lot and/or an important sector such as nurses/gardi/fire-fighters) might then suffer from.

Solutions don't always have to be given though however - sometimes possible effects exposed in proposals, is enough also to turn heads also in decision making.

tommyboy2222

i understand where youre coming from on that tommyboy,but if people got organised and started a nationwide petition to hand into the dail that would be a valid and civilised way of prostest and could be effective..

I'm not sure about that. The only thing that could be effective is something that politicians think will cost them votes.

An example of this was when FF did a cowardly u-turn on the medical card for wealthy pensioners. They feared losing votes.

lugha

Biggins wrote: »

I feel for a protest to stand any chance of being anyway successful, there HAS to be a clear benefit for the nation

Alas, I don’t think that is at all true. Protests for some selfish reasons CAN and do succeed simply because the protesters are well organised and / or have political leverage. The afore mentioned grey campaign to retain the medical card for pensioners, who could well afford to pay it themselves remember, was successfully for example. (Bizarrely, this success was broadly celebrated by the public, who seemingly failed to grasp that they would be paying for this victory with higher taxes / lower welfare etc.).

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

Biggins

lugha wrote: »

Alas, I don’t think that is at all true. Protests for some selfish reasons CAN and do succeed simply because the protesters are well organised and / or have political leverage. The afore mentioned grey campaign to retain the medical card for pensioners, who could well afford to pay it themselves remember, was successfully for example. (Bizarrely, this success was broadly celebrated by the public, who seemingly failed to grasp that they would be paying for this victory with higher taxes / lower welfare etc.).

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

Granted, if a protest is organised well enough and enough people are seriously made angered enough, to be then REALLY motivated to get out and march, a protest march can be successful.
The homework previous to this MUST be done and done well first though.
A rushed protest is oft times lending itself to 'fail' if the ground work is shaky alone.

In the examples you give above, someone seriously did their homework first.
It clearly helps.

Chuck Stone

lugha wrote: »

And similarly for public sector unions and farmers to name just two. They have might on their sides; it matter not at all whose side right is on. And this is a difficulty I have with such protests, where the gain for the protester will be at the expense of someone else, possibly unknown but inevitably weaker. And this is the state of affairs with most protests.

This is true.

It's the logic of collective action and economics of concentrated benefits versus diffuse costs.

hatrickpatrick

Cool Mo D wrote: »

Compare with occupy Dame street - no single clear stated goal, principally supported by people who would never vote for government parties no matter what they do: easily ignored.

Occupy did have a goal, its main focus was on bringing those at the top of the financial sector to justice for the countless crimes and broken regulations they have committed. If you actually went to the ODS camp you would have seen that the biggest poster they had was a gigantic cheque from the Irish people to Anglo Irish Bank, with no amount specified. But of course, it's easy enough to dismiss such protests, when it's the easiest option.
The fact that only a small handful of people came out to protest against the bailouts of financial institutions which chose of their own free will to f*ck up, with our money, is an absolutely shocking commentary on the state of the Irish people's morale.

rubadubduba

the price of petrol is crippling people and we stand by and let it happen. if anything there is a good place to start a protest, they recon we could be paying up to two euro a liter by the end of the year. the french goverment gave their people a break from soaring petrol prices but our sloppy goverment wont budge so i think it would be a good idea to band together and block all the citys to a standstill and let them know how we feel.

Guy:Incognito

rubadubduba wrote: »

, they recon we could be paying up to two euro a liter by the end of the year..

They reckoned that last year too.

Bolitar

Heard an oil trader on rte radio one saying that price of petrol should come down in 3 to 4 weeks as some maintenance repairs to oil pipes will be finished.

Biggins

Bolitar wrote: »

Heard an oil trader on rte radio one saying that price of petrol should come down in 3 to 4 weeks as some maintenance repairs to oil pipes will be finished.

"Should" but seeing as many garages are tied to contacts, we might be lucky.

Amazing how they can shove the price up so quick, day per day (when they buying it in at a prior fixed contracted price) but when its pointed out that its should be lower "Aaa.. well, we have these contracts you see!"

Bolitar

A garage gets a delivery, pays x per litre sells it on, gets another delivery pays x a litre .. from what I see at local garage this takes place once or twice a week so slowly but surely the price should come down if the garage is paying less per litre.

Biggins

Bolitar wrote: »

A garage gets a delivery, pays x per litre sells it on, gets another delivery pays x a litre .. from what I see at local garage this takes place once or twice a week so slowly but surely the price should come down if the garage is paying less per litre.

The larger garage companies buy in contract bulk quantities at pre-fixed prices (as do a lot of airlines by the way).
Sometimes they buy up to a year or more in advance.

Am Chile

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

The one way a protest can be organised that would make a difference is if the trade unions got off the fence to try organise protest marches like the 1979 paye tax marches with big numbers taking to the streets in every single town through out the country.

pragmatic1

brummytom wrote: »

No.


I was on a march (as a child, with my family) against the Iraq war. We travelled down to London for it, and were part of a crowd of 1 million people (1 in every 60 people in the country!), and that was just one of a number of protests across the country.

Did the government listen to the biggest protest ever? Did they fuck. Governments can do what they like.

It's absolutely possible. In the 70's loyalists brought N.Ireland to its knees for a few weeks. People actually do have the power, it's organizing the people that's the hard part.

Not that I agree with anything loyalists do. Just an example.

Am Chile

This was one suggestion posted on the call for a revolution in Ireland page recently enough-

One
of the biggest issues people have had all along when considering attending
protests was the distance factor. Not everyone can afford to make it to Dublin
either because of work commitments or lack of funds. This seems to be part cause
of the protests being poorly attended.

Some
members have suggested protests in towns and cities around the country to
facilitate those who could not make Dubli

n. So the idea is this: What if people right across
the country set up local groups that will operate within their own county, each
with a liaison to the main group. If, on a certain day, people downed tools and
came out in defiance through civil disobedience in each county across the land.
They would stop working and stop participating in the functioning of the
state.

Dublin is but one
place and should not be the only place for making a stand. You would be more
likely to get a response by holding a day of protest in your own counties rather
than standing outside the Daíl on any given day since the Politicians would
simply ignore us and the farce would continue...

If you want to make them
take notice, you hit them where it hurts the most: In the pocket.

http://www.facebook.com/RevolutionIreland/posts/436759599709708
If a protest of this manner was organised and carried through it would be effective.

ArmaniJeanss

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

Opinion polls indicate that the government still retains popular support amongst the people, so any such protest is unlikely to succeed.

ManMade

I dislike the way we are shown what is coming up in the next budget so it's less of a shock on budget day, also how they promise not to touch welfare while taking money off young families and hard working people because apparently they need it less. Yes they pay because they have no choice and it's having a serious affect on their standard of living.

Annasopra

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

I'm not sure if this is what you are thinking of but Claiming Our Future Plan B alternative to austerity is well worked out

Here's details on the Plan B campaign

http://claimingourfuture.revolutionaries.ie/takeaction/

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/reinventing-our-democracy/


They also have an event coming up in November

http://www.claimingourfuture.ie/

Life = Rhythm

This thread was short lived, which is indicative of the spirit meter.

Influential people like Fintan O'Toole, Vincent Browne etc. have a lot to say about social justice/change but they have little to gain by participating in/organising protest. The risk of being associated with anti-social behaviour is too high -it would be professionally devastating for them, which would be a terrible loss. So strong leaders are hard to come by.

The only proper organised public rally was the ICTU rally in Nov 2010, which had partly argued for preservation of public sector pay levels. This was the best we could do and the Gardai would have been in favour of it.

Try to protest the issue of increments being granted to the 30% of workers in the public sector earning more than €60k (benefits not specified) and you'll feel the wrath of authority. It amounts to an attack on the establishment and would not be tolerated for very long.

The Occupy movement was shut down 6 months ago now and you would have hoped that less ideologically driven protest would have taken it's place since then...

Like many, I am waiting for a constructive protest.

KingMonkey

they close hospitals,they bail out the banks...Irish traitors...

id expect the next budget to be a Freddy Kruger slasher part 4....

in answer to your question tho,yes probably but it would have to resemble something like the recent London riots to have any kind of affect on our e.u/troica run government...

MJ said it best "they don't really care about us"

KM

ilovesleep

KingMonkey wrote: »

they close hospitals,they bail out the banks...Irish traitors...

id expect the next budget to be a Freddy Kruger slasher part 4....

in answer to your question tho,yes probably but it would have to resemble something like the recent London riots to have any kind of affect on our e.u/troica run government...

MJ said it best "they don't really care about us"

KM

Not to mention to mention, its been.hinted that travel passes may be scrapped.

(ok, money and cuts has to come from somewhere to bridge the deficit.

But the fcukers will probably, no doubt, more than likely, keep their own travel expense allowance.

Talking about a smack in the fcuking face.

twinytwo

simply answer is no.

Irish people are great at moaning but useless when it comes to actually doing somehting about it.

The government will ignore a protest anyway..

Piste

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Flicking through the news stories & it seems we are about to get shafted, again, with the next budget.
Is it possible to organise a protest or do something that actually grabs the attention of the government & makes them listen to the people of Ireland for a change?
Personally I've had enough of the whole lot. You can't take money people don't have. I'm not an accountant or a financial wizard but even I know this.

I'm not looking for vigilante answers to this.

Can anyone propose a reasonable suggestion to stop this, or at least try, before it gets completely out of hand?

Just last week people managed to protest against HSE cuts to carers and personal assistants for the disabled, and they got the cuts reversed.

It's easy to complain, not to easy to provide an alternative. We can't just cut taxes/keep them as they are while simultaneously increasing government spending/keeping it as it is while the markets wont lend to us. I really don't envy the government at the moment.

BillyMitchel

This came to mind, different country and different circumstances but..

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution