Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Turtwig · 24-08-2012 09:13PM

titan18 wrote: »

Aye, I can't find the original paper either, but as WADA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine refer to it, I'd assume it exists. Goldman might have referred to it in his book, "Death in the Locker Room", but I've never read it.

That was the same author, JM Connor, though. I'd just like something else, but so far google and wikipedia are incredibly sparse. I might post something in the science or athletics forums to see if anyone knows anything else.

Thanks though.

cerebus · 24-08-2012 10:11PM

Jernal wrote: »

That was the same author, JM Connor, though. I'd just like something else, but so far google and wikipedia are incredibly sparse. I might post something in the science or athletics forums to see if anyone knows anything else.

Thanks though.

It looks like the survey may be in one of these - seems to be an ongoing series published by Bob Goldman and others:

http://amzn.com/0896511553
http://amzn.com/096314510X

Dempsey · 24-08-2012 10:31PM

The only thing thats bothering me about the whole USADA case is why it took this long for all these people to testify against him and the motivation for their testimony.

UnitedIrishman · 24-08-2012 11:17PM

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

That's great but what if your coaches/doctors are telling you that everyone is using the same drugs, that by not taking it then you're going to fall way behind and you'd be the outsider in the sport rather than those who are doping?

Lance is most definitely guilty, you don't get that kind of improvement and longevity in that sport unless you're on something. As someone else mentioned earlier in the thread, David Walsh said there wasn't much that would astound him but when he saw Armstrong flying up the mountain stage, he said it was slightly unbelieveable. And it was.

By Armstrong playing this 'oh, it's a conspiracy' card, he's trying to hold on to the last remnants of his legacy. It wouldn't bother me so much if Armstrong hadn't made a fortune from cheating and then playing the 'cancer' card when questioned at times, and in his own mind he's convinced himself that he's right and all those that question him.

And it's not exactly the best deterrent for future athletes with Nike and other companies standing by him through all this - Do drugs. Win titles. Get rich. Get out and live the rest of your life constantly denying allegations.

An interesting read, if you have time, and a real eye-opener for me was this interview by Angel Heredia (formerly of Balco) on drugs used by professional athletes. http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f13/angel-heredia-interview-sports-doping-1927491/

Most interestingly - with regards Armstrong not failing a test - is Heredia speaking about designer drugs:

Heredia: It gets around who can provide you with something how quickly and at what price, who is discreet. The coaches approached me and asked if I could help them, and I said: yes. Then they gave me money, $15,000 or thereabouts, we got a first shipment and then we did business. At some point it led to one-on-one cooperation with the athletes.

SPIEGEL: Is there doping at every level of athletics?

Heredia: Yes, the only difference is the quality of the doping. Athletes with little money use simple steroids and hope they don’t get tested. The stars earn 50,000 dollars a month, not including starting bonuses and shoe sponsorship contracts. The very best invest 100,000 dollars – I’ll then build you a designer drug that can’t be detected. Designer drugs are composed of several different chemicals that trigger the desired reaction. At the end of the chain I change one or two molecules in such a way that the entire structure is undetectable for the doping testers.

D_D · 24-08-2012 11:17PM

Wibbs wrote: »

To be sure cycling is very dubious for doping and has been for a long time. Back in the day, before the mid 80's it was mostly amphetamines etc to keep them upright in the saddle as the toll on the body was and is unreal compared to other sports. Especially back in the days of small enough money and near daily racing not just the big tours. Most of the greats in cycling back then were implicated, caught or admitted it outright. Jaques Anquetil a monster of a cyclist, who unlike your Lances of the world competed throughout the season and not just aimed at the tour de france, he said that all the riders doped(with speed) and that you'd have to be mad to think anyone could do what they did without it. Problem was a couple of them died from it.

The diff came from the mid 80's onwards. Speed etc isn't much of a performance enhancer. In the sense that there's no way it's going to turn a carthorse into a racehourse, it'll just keep the carthorse going. It's still a level playing field. Drugs like EPO actually improve physical performance and can do so markedly and different people react in different ways. Some can make huge improvements on that stuff and win where they otherwise wouldn't have.

It was as clear as the nose on your face there was something other than water in his water bottle. When you see someone built for spinting/time trialling hammering specialised climbers on mountain stages you think GTFO. When you see damn near all his ex teammates done for doping and he expected us to believe he as the team leader was clean, you think GTFO. When his name is connected with dopers and suppliers and "doctors" in a cynical drive to win the Tour for the US of A and his backers, you think GTFO. When you see him play the cancer violin or the anti American bleat to deflect the accusations you think GTFO. In short Lance Armstrong, GTFO.

He'll still get support in the US. The mouthbreathers among them will refuse to admit he dopes. Doping in sport in the US is as bad or worse than it ever was in the old Soviet bloc(they dope in baseball FFS), they're just better at covering it up and backing their dopers. Fair play to the few yanks that have kept the anti doping pressure on, this day will be a nice reward for them.

It's not just cycling either. Not by a long shot. It just had the beady eye on it because it was sooooo obvious. IMHO there are bugger all in athletics that are clean and near zero among the consistent winners.

Thanks for that post. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge in this, whereas I have absolutely none but I still find interesting. What's your opinion on Phelps so? Do you think he's at it as well? And Bolt? I just somehow find it hard to imagine because they have so much to lose... But again, don't have a clue.

Seaneh · 24-08-2012 11:27PM

D_D wrote: »

Thanks for that post. You seem to have a fair bit of knowledge in this, whereas I have absolutely none but I still find interesting. What's your opinion on Phelps so? Do you think he's at it as well? And Bolt? I just somehow find it hard to imagine because they have so much to lose... But again, don't have a clue.

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

D_D · 24-08-2012 11:32PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

Hmmmm, that's a big leap. And also si it not too difficult to hide chemist training partner? Does she train beside him in her lab coat and safety goggles? It's like saying 'Bolt watches Breaking Bad.... Doped'.

Colmustard · 24-08-2012 11:38PM

Paul Kimmage and the Lance Armstrong tussle was rather famous in the cycling world, Paul Kimmage never gave him a peaceful press question session.

Armstrong once gave the cancer cover story and Kimmage accused him of drugs and him been the cancer in the sport.

I have a tendency to blame the cycling authorities, it was only in 2008 when the tour de france descended into fiasco and nearly lost all credibility that the authorities reacted. The Tour is clean-er now. I doubt Bradley Wiggins is a drug cheat.

Good riddance Armstrong, but now if he is stripped of his titles, who gets them, probably the cyclists that came 50th.

opinion guy · 24-08-2012 11:39PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Bolt "trained" with Angel Heredia (working under the name Angel Hernandez).

Heredia is a chemist, not a coach.

Bolt doped.

Does Bolt have any need to dope ?

He seems to win races without even trying all that hard. Why risk it when you are that good ?

opinion guy · 24-08-2012 11:40PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Good riddance Armstrong, but now if he is stripped of his titles, who gets them, probably the cyclists that came 50th.

The drug dealer maybe ???? :pac:

Does Armstrong have to give back prize money ?

Dempsey · 24-08-2012 11:42PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Does Bolt have any need to dope ?

He seems to win races without even trying all that hard. Why risk it when you are that good ?

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Colmustard · 24-08-2012 11:43PM

opinion guy wrote: »

The drug dealer maybe ???? :pac:

Does Armstrong have to give back prize money ?

Probably, but really that will not bother him, he is up there with the world's richest sportsmen.

When he was given a statement on some interview I seen today he was wearing a NIKE top, I don't know what that says.

opinion guy · 24-08-2012 11:49PM

Dempsey wrote: »

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

drdeadlift · 24-08-2012 11:53PM

Dempsey wrote: »

The only thing thats bothering me about the whole USADA case is why it took this long for all these people to testify against him and the motivation for their testimony.

Thats the interesting part.

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 11:54PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Dempsey wrote: »

Maybe he doesnt have to try because he's doped to the eyeballs! :pac:

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

Why work with a dope doctor if you're clean? I knew Jamaica had dodgy drug enforcement policies but hadn't heard about Bolt's before now. Sounds very sketchy.

No athlete should be working with coaches associated with dope, our own Rob Heffernan included.

If you hire these guys, expect everyone to assume you're dirty.

Dempsey · 24-08-2012 11:57PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Well maybe - but why dope yourself to be that good - it attracts too much attention. If you were so superhuman with doping wouldn't you stop to be at at an only slightly better than everyone else level?

Ego? Money?

opinion guy · 24-08-2012 11:59PM

Colmustard wrote: »

Probably, but really that will not bother him, he is up there with the world's richest sportsmen.

When he was given a statement on some interview I seen today he was wearing a NIKE top, I don't know what that says.

Lol - poor Nike.....they never seem to catch a break....

http://blogs.phoenixnewtimes.com/valleyfever/assets_c/2010/02/Tiger-Woods-New-Nike-Ad-thumb-500x457.jpg

heavyballs · 25-08-2012 12:05AM

Why not let the feckers take as many drugs as they want for next years TDF,probably see no improvements at all in time trial times etc proving they're all cheaters.

NIMAN · 25-08-2012 12:11AM

This is probably the most unshocking news in sport. Surely most people accepted that he was cheating and didn't need this to prove it?

Just makes you wonder how many other top athletes are doping as well. How many of the medalists in London2012 are taking drugs?

I say forget about dope testing, let them take whatever they want, and get on with it.

jimbobaloobob · 25-08-2012 12:13AM

Do ye reckon theres a sport thats drug free?

heavyballs · 25-08-2012 12:17AM

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

Do ye reckon theres a sport thats drug free?

No,but cycling has to be one of the worst.

NIMAN · 25-08-2012 12:20AM

I don't think there's a sport thats drug free tbh.

I have major suspicions about the Jamaican sprinters too... perhaps time will tell.

jimbobaloobob · 25-08-2012 12:21AM

I dont think cycling is the worst but i think it offers the best sport to get results from a drug testing perspective.

Seaneh · 25-08-2012 12:28AM

D_D wrote: »

Hmmmm, that's a big leap. And also si it not too difficult to hide chemist training partner? Does she train beside him in her lab coat and safety goggles? It's like saying 'Bolt watches Breaking Bad.... Doped'.

Angel Heredia is a male.

He designs drugs for atheletes, he has admitted it in court and in interviews to papers.

He was the only who supplied Marrion Jones and Tim Montgomery.

titan18 · 25-08-2012 12:30AM

On Bolt, whilst I think he's on something (I think most are though tbf), there's no hard evidence to back up that he is. It's all circumstantial e.g Heredia, his training partners being caught (Blake tested positive for example), the poor out of competition testing in Caribbean countries, beating guys like Gatlin comfortably. There's nothing there that anyone can definitely say he's guilty tbh.

Likewise, with a lot of people e.g since someone said Wiggins above, you could easily put Wiggins at the same level as Bolt. There's nothing there that you can say for definite but there's stuff like Geert Leinders (ex Rabo doctor, worked with Rasmussen etc) being a team doctor, a pretty impressive performance jump by him and in particular Froome, the past history of cycling (very few track riders have gone on and been successful in GTs, and some of those who did tested positive later, Wiggins beating some of the best guys around by a good bit when he was never able to do before this year), blocking Kimmage from following Sky in 2010 Tour. Nothing definite that you can point to, but some choose to believe he's clean, others don't.

If I see a performance that I consider suspect, either with the person's history, or just plain crazy naturally, considering how easy it is to dope and get away it, I tend to go with the person is on something. Tbh, getting caught in competiton is an IQ test failure.

jimbobaloobob · 25-08-2012 12:34AM

In fairness i wouldnt want Kimmage or Walsh following a team in any event, they are just looking for the meat in a sandwhich.

NIMAN · 25-08-2012 12:35AM

I don't know how they drug test at the Olympics (random?), but surely ALL medal winners would be tested.

Seaneh · 25-08-2012 12:36AM

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't know how they drug test at the Olympics (random?), but surely ALL medal winners would be tested.

It doesn't matter.
Testing isn't fool proof, there are drugs they can't currently test for.

Colmustard · 25-08-2012 12:37AM

NIMAN wrote: »

I don't know how they drug test at the Olympics (random?), but surely ALL medal winners would be tested.

They are all tested.

Even the horses.

Colmustard · 25-08-2012 12:39AM

Seaneh wrote: »

It doesn't matter.
Testing isn't fool proof, there are drugs they can't currently test for.

But they keep the samples. So if they are successful there is a future risk of disgrace.

Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

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