Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

Dockington · 24-08-2012 02:34PM

Mr. Anderson wrote: »

Angel Heredia (supplied Marion Jones, among other Olympians, with drugs) interview. A bit long but fascinating/depressing.
http://www.pendlayforum.com/showthread.php?t=6611

Wow that is disturbing reading, I know the interview is a bit old but if Heredia's claims are true (that the top level of almost all sports is rife with performance enhancing drugs that in many cases he supplied) then it is quite depressing. Especially after watching the top athletes in the world with awe in London. I always knew there were a few bad eggs but thought that the vast majority were clean and just amazing for their dedication and skill. I still hope this is the case and that Heredia's claims are just an attempt to justify his actions.

fishy fishy · 24-08-2012 02:49PM

Jerrica wrote: »

So all diabetics should be ruled out of the Olympics by virtue of them needing to take insulin by injection?

Oh you. D+ for effort.

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

Quorum · 24-08-2012 02:52PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

It would depend on dosages. You'd take a smaller dosage of steroids for medical conditions, and this level should be provable by tests.

Seaneh · 24-08-2012 02:53PM

Usine Bolt used Memo Heredia as one of his trainers from 2010-2011, now that is disturbing!

Heredia changed his name to Hernandez and continues to work with elite atheletes, that's messed up.

StephenHendry · 24-08-2012 02:53PM

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

Turtwig · 24-08-2012 02:53PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

How would Ocular steroids for the eyes assist in a swimmer's performance? How would an anti-inflammatory - a side effect of which is fatigue- assist a cyclist? I really don't think you understand that there's a significant difference between "drug" and "performance enhancing drug". Some drugs even impair performance but are necessary for medical reasons.

titan18 · 24-08-2012 02:58PM

Seaneh wrote: »

Usine Bolt used Memo Heredia as one of his trainers from 2010-2011, now that is disturbing!

Heredia changed his name to Hernandez and continues to work with elite atheletes, that's messed up.

Aye, works with Marquez too in boxing. Victor Conte continues to work with athletes too even after Balco.

24-08-2012 03:01PM

A cyclist took drugs? I don't believe it.

Jerrica · 24-08-2012 03:09PM

fishy fishy wrote: »

so some medications are okay then I guess.

If you are on steroids for a medical condition does that count too?

y'see how it gets messy

Who decides.

You are either drug free or else let everyone take their drug of choice and go from there. I personally would say let them all take what they want and it will be a much more entertaining sport.

It's really very straight forward.

The world Anti Doping Agency (WADA) decides what is and is not allowed. Any athlete on medication that could be seen to contravene those rules declares it prior to competing and the officials decide from there.

titan18 · 24-08-2012 03:14PM

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12712/Travis-Tygart-Interview-Armstrongs-results-from-August-1st-1998-will-be-stripped.aspx#ixzz24Smw9KQs

Don't know if this was posted but USADA said they'll release the evidence as the other cases proceed. Hopefully, there's something in there that can blow cycling open

Seaneh · 24-08-2012 03:16PM

StephenHendry wrote: »

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

As someone who has survived cancer, has friends who sruvived cancer and has lost friends to cancer, I find lance armstrong a bit of a prick to be honest.

He says he "defeated" cancer.

No, he didn't, he survived it, cancer has never been defeated.

The language he uses implies that people who don't survive (or defeat in his langauge) cancer "lose". Which implies he is somehow better than them.

That kind of bothers me.

Also, he is a cheat, and he should just admit it.

martomcg · 24-08-2012 03:45PM

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

4zn76tysfajdxp · 24-08-2012 03:46PM

Seaneh wrote: »

As someone who has survived cancer,

Well done.

engrish? · 24-08-2012 03:51PM

StephenHendry wrote: »

Lance is and was a true inspiration to many people from his fight from cancer to TDF champion, it is a sad end to a great career and we might never know the full story of what went on

As someone who recently had (and survived) cancer, I can tell you that his books were a massive inspiration to me. He has a fantastic fighting spirit, one which I tried to mimic as I came to terms with my own cancer. He definitely helped me get through it.

About a year ago I managed to get a signed poster and a Livestrong Jersey. His books detail the witch hunt that he had to endure throughout his career, there were always drug tests to take and he constantly had to prove his innocence. This news is disappointing and if he cheated and they can prove it (beyond the testimony of two guilty dopers) he should have his medals taken away, that being said, it doesn't change him in my eyes as a source of inspiration.

StephenHendry · 24-08-2012 03:56PM

it would appear he doesn't want to continue fighting the allegations made against him and lance is looking to move on and not prolong this any further. also it would appear that he doesnt believe the process of the investigation is entirely fair or just

WumBuster · 24-08-2012 03:56PM

martomcg wrote: »

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

Seaneh · 24-08-2012 03:57PM

Walter Agreeable Quirk wrote: »

Well done.

I was only a kid, more to do with having good medical care

even in Ireland in the 80's we had good doctors

engrish? · 24-08-2012 04:02PM

StephenHendry wrote: »

it would appear he doesn't want to continue fighting the allegations made against him and lance is looking to move on and not prolong this any further. also it would appear that he doesnt believe the process of the investigation is entirely fair or just

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

hardCopy · 24-08-2012 04:03PM

martomcg wrote: »

Theres alot of naivety here about drug use in top athletes. Its pretty much certain that Lance doped with multiple different forms of drugs, etc but then so did alot of other top cyclists.

The key thing i think people are forgetting is that he didnt just take a pill and automatically win all those titles. How is it he could win them while doping and other cyclists (who actually got caught doping) couldnt beat him? You think he had his own secret lab and was developing drugs that would enhance himself more than other people?

Theres this same perception in the bodybuilding world about steroids being cheating. And that it in some way nulifies all the extreme training all these guys to to be the best in their respective sports.

If someone told you that you could train hard your entire life but never achieve the no.1 spot or amount to anything (or any fame at all) and if they then told you that with your hard work and a "little help" you could be the no.1 in the entire world, what would you say? No? Bollox.

People will always cheat, its funny how its always an "association" that determines what "cheating is". These "associations" obviously are never biased or have hidden agendas?

The problem I have is that Lance had a unique opportunity to blow the whole thing open, but rather than use that he has been as guilty as anyone else of policing the Omerta. He's done all he can to attack and discredit anyone who ever opposed him.

Plenty of others have taken the more honourable route, look at Paul Kimmage and more recently Jonathan Vaughters.

Even if he had just kept his mouth shut and said "no comment" I'd have more time for him.

Seaneh · 24-08-2012 04:06PM

engrish? wrote: »

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/michael-ashenden

hard evidence.

StephenHendry · 24-08-2012 04:07PM

engrish? wrote: »

Thats the impression I get. I'm waiting to see hard evidence. I didn't expect to see him give up though, by giving up it looks like he is admitting guilt.

same here i hope lance keeps fighting these allegations

martomcg · 24-08-2012 04:08PM

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

The majority of athletes are most definitely not 'clean'. Absolutely every one of them that competes competitively is on absolutely everything thats deemed "legal" by the various organisations.

And your seriously telling me that if you had the potential to be No.1 in the world, better than 6,973,738,433 other people you wouldnt take it? To go down in history as the best on the planet at something? I'd jump at it with both hands, like most normal people.

Regardless of the outcome of this investigation it doesnt change the fact that he (Lance) still was the No.1 on the planet. No other cyclist will ever achieve his record whether they're on drugs or not.

titan18 · 24-08-2012 04:20PM

WumBuster wrote: »

Well i for one would rather finish tenth and have a clear conscience than finish 1st and not have a clear conscience. The majority of athletes across the different sports are clean and just rely on hard graft and honesty of effort. But these guys you rarely hear about because they tend to finish behind the cheats. Im glad this superficial fraud Armstrong has been exposed and is finally getting his just desserts, its been an open secret about him for years now. Hopefully more of these 'top' athletes will be exposed for what they are now.

You never heard of the Golman Dilemma? It was a survey done in 1984 for the first time amongst elite athletes and was continued on over the years, and the response level was the same. Survey asked would an athlete take a drug that guaranteed them sporting success (e.g. Olympic Gold medal) but the drug would kill them in 5 years. 50% of athletes said they would.

nacimroc · 24-08-2012 05:49PM

StephenHendry wrote: »

same here i hope lance keeps fighting these allegations

Amazed it took this long to come out. Your telling me a 40 year old guy who just had cancer can fairly beat guys in their 20's who are doped up to their eyeballs. Your asking to be lied to.

Turtwig · 24-08-2012 07:52PM

titan18 wrote: »

You never heard of the Golman Dilemma? It was a survey done in 1984 for the first time amongst elite athletes and was continued on over the years, and the response level was the same. Survey asked would an athlete take a drug that guaranteed them sporting success (e.g. Olympic Gold medal) but the drug would kill them in 5 years. 50% of athletes said they would.

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:55PM

Despite giving back his awards, they're not giving back his testicle.

martomcg · 24-08-2012 08:28PM

Jernal wrote: »

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

Try using google......

http://michaelwaustin.blogspot.ie/2010/01/goldman-dilemma.html

titan18 · 24-08-2012 08:33PM

Jernal wrote: »

Do you have any scientific source or linky for this?

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Education_Awareness/SocialScienceResearch/Research_Projects/2010/Connor_Project_Summary.pdf

Well, there's a WADA article

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/

A NY Times blog

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/11/871.abstract

That's a link to the abstract of the British Journal of Sports Medicine when they tested it on normal population.

Don't really have anything more than that unless you want more blogs and discussions on it.

Turtwig · 24-08-2012 08:45PM

titan18 wrote: »

http://www.wada-ama.org/Documents/Education_Awareness/SocialScienceResearch/Research_Projects/2010/Connor_Project_Summary.pdf

Well, there's a WADA article

http://well.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/01/20/phys-ed-will-olympic-athletes-dope-if-they-know-it-might-kill-them/

A NY Times blog

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/43/11/871.abstract

That's a link to the abstract of the British Journal of Sports Medicine when they tested it on normal population.

Don't really have anything more than that unless you want more blogs and discussions on it.

Thanks,

I'd like the original paper. I can't seem to find it anywhere. All I'm getting is references to it but no actual direct reference to it. Leading to me question whether such a dilemma actual exists. It might, but I'm not finding anything that's a primary source.

titan18 · 24-08-2012 09:01PM

Jernal wrote: »

Thanks,

I'd like the original paper. I can't seem to find it anywhere. All I'm getting is references to it but no actual direct reference to it. Leading to me question whether such a dilemma actual exists. It might, but I'm not finding anything that's a primary source.

Aye, I can't find the original paper either, but as WADA and the British Journal of Sports Medicine refer to it, I'd assume it exists. Goldman might have referred to it in his book, "Death in the Locker Room", but I've never read it.

Lance armstrong drops fight against doping charges

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