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Irish Gun Control - To Strict?

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Comments

  • #32
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,419 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    codex1 wrote: »

    Security aside, shooting is a major sport & why should responsible gun owners be prevented from participating in it.

    We're not..3 people here have said they own firearms..myself included, you just meet the requirements for security and a legitimate reason and you can have a firearm...within reason...no fully automatic firearms and centrefire pistols.


  • #33
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    crazy cabbage wrote: »
    Nope. No way. We need stricter gun control if anything. I am all for personal freedom but way more people will have freedom if there is no guns whatsoever. Just ask all the people who have been shot dead. :rolleyes:

    Doesn't america have one of the highest rates of gun crime in the world?

    Why does we need stricter gun control? It is not legally held guns that are used in shootings/armed robberies.


  • #34
    PieForPi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭PieForPi


    codex1 wrote: »
    I used to agree with this point of view, however when I've spent years of my life working to purchase my property & other goods, why should I just allow any thug to walk into my house, terrify my kids & wife and leave with anything he wants.

    You insure them. Most burglars aren't even heard, let alone seen or have the potential to "terrify" people.

    Also, he might not be armed with a gun, but that does not mean he cannot use deadly force against us or harm my family, he could be strung out on meth, have a syringe, knife etc...

    We don't have a problem with burglars harming people in this country. Thanks for the concern though.
    I also agree with you that guns are getting into the wrong hands - criminals can easily obtain a gun (although its expensive), yet as a law abiding citizen I cannot & I see this to be a gross imbalance.

    Guns aren't expensive for criminals. €500 here would get you an illegal handgun with the serials removed. Yet, we don't have a problem with them.

    You see, where you're failing here is that you're implying that Ireland has a crime problem similar to that in the US and that the criminals here are walking around armed like those in the US. We don't, they're not and they're not going to be and you need to cop yourself on to that. The crime and murder problem in the US has come about due to the access to guns. It will remain a significant problem as long as that relaxed attitude remains.

    For f*ck sake, the public schools there have metal detectors to stop people bringing in their parents guns. We do not need that just so a few egotistical "law abiding citizens" can access lethal weapons to overcompensate for their shortcomings.


  • #35
    My name is URL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,352 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    Blay wrote: »
    We're not..3 people here have said they own firearms..myself included, you just meet the requirements for security and a legitimate reason and you can have a firearm...within reason...no fully automatic firearms and centrefire pistols.

    Is wanting one for home and self protection considered a valid reason in Ireland?


  • #36
    codex1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭codex1


    garv123 wrote: »
    There are some stupid things in Irish gun laws but the majority of them I wouldn't disagree with. I got my 2 guns with little hassle at all as I had a valid reasons for owning each one.

    Your facts are also completely wrong too by the way as pointed out.

    you can own a up to .30 cal on a normal licence.. What did you think people were shooting deer with ? :confused::confused:

    You can also get a semi auto centre fire rifle or bigger cal than .30 on a restricted licence but you must prove valid reason for owning these where a bolt action wont do the same job.. Most of these involve an expensive court case. Fully auto aint legal though.

    Pistols are now restricted to .22 5 shot but if you owned a bigger cal centre fire pistol before the law changed you can still own a centre pistol.

    When I was in Ireland, pistols where 100% banned (although some guy had started a court challenge to this at the time) & rifles where restricted to .22 - which amounts to cruelty to animals when hunting.

    You have to go to court to buy a pistol or rifle?

    I accept your points but it would be interesting to read the current official laws on this, do you have a source?


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  • #37
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    marshbaboon wrote: »
    Like if you enjoy shooting up a crowd of people, you need an assault rifle.. or other fully automatic weapon.

    What is the point you are trying to make? You cannot get such a firearm in Irteland. I use my sporting firearms for sport, what is wrong with that?


  • #38
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,419 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Is wanting one for home and self protection considered a valid reason in Ireland?

    Nope, there's no allowance in the law here for a person to licence a firearm for self/home defence.


  • #39
    Odysseus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,752 ✭✭✭Odysseus


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Is wanting one for home and self protection considered a valid reason in Ireland?

    Thankfully it is not


  • #40
    greenpilot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    PieForPi wrote: »
    Dean09 wrote: »
    Bottom line is
    99% of burglars/muggers/home invaders here don't have guns so there is little need for the home owner to have a gun to fight back with.

    Not only that but most will run as soon as they hear a noise/believe someone is awake. They're not in to hurt people, they're in to grab whatever they can and get out undetected and thus we don't need to have weapons to defend ourselves.

    Even having a bat near the bedroom is almost overkill.
    This is where the problem is in America. Everyone has a gun so it makes sense to have one to protect yourself.
    Yep, and they're killing eachother with them at a disgusting rate and screaming that they've a God given right to do so.
    I've no problem with a rational, sensible, responsible person having a gun at home to protect their family if the situation arises. But the problem is, the guns are too easy to acquire in the US, and clearly some mentally unstable people are able to get a gun license with ease.

    Not only that but they're clearly not being stored properly either, since so many kids/burglars/etc can snatch them with ease.
    Afaik there is no psych evaluation prior to getting a permit. It's just a background check and you have the gun in a matter of days. The guns are getting into the wrong hands far too easily.

    Yep, unless you're a proven criminal/nutjob you're good to go.

    I have a Ruger 10/22 semi automatic rifle which fires .22 long rifle high velocity and sub sonic bullets. It fires from a 10 round magazine and fires as fast as you can pull a trigger. It cost 500 Euro and the scope cost 250. Am I a nut job? No, but I am a member of a shooting club. I was vetted by the gardai, who came to check my gunsafe and the weapon. I then had to go through a serious vetting process to get membership of the club, which took 3 weeks. Then, and only then I was allowed to get my gun. The gardai now check the regestration book of the gun club to make sure that the number of rounds I buy tally with my attendance of the club. I can ONLY use this gun at the club. Handguns are also allowed at the club. This is safe and controlled. You don't get ANY gun in a matter of days.


  • #41
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,419 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    codex1 wrote: »
    When I was in Ireland, pistols when 100% banned (although some guy had started a court challenge to this at the time) & rifles where restricted to .22 - which amounts to cruelty to animals when hunting.

    That has changed.

    You have to go to court to buy a pistol or rifle?

    Generally only in the case of a restricted firearm where the CS doesn't believe you have a valid reason for it.

    I accept your points but it would be interesting to read the current official laws on this, do you have a source?

    Go over to the shooting forum, there's a red banner that will link you to the laws on firearms here.
    .
    greenpilot wrote: »
    You don't get ANY gun in a matter of days.

    They're talking about the US.


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  • #42
    PieForPi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭PieForPi


    greenpilot wrote: »
    I have a Ruger 10/22 semi automatic rifle which fires .22 long rifle high velocity and sub sonic bullets. It fires from a 10 round magazine and fires as fast as you can pull a trigger. It cost 500 Euro and the scope cost 250. Am I a nut job? No, but I am a member of a shooting club. I was vetted by the gardai, who came to check my gunsafe and the weapon. I then had to go through a serious vetting process to get membership of the club, which took 3 weeks. Then, and only then I was allowed to get my gun. The gardai now check the regestration book of the gun club to make sure that the number of rounds I buy tally with my attendance of the club. I can ONLY use this gun at the club. Handguns are also allowed at the club. This is safe and controlled. You don't get ANY gun in a matter of days.

    I don't know why you addressed me with this as I've only talked of the US situation myself. I think the gun laws here are fine. They allow those who want them for sport/hunting/protecting livestock to have them and they keep them out of the hands of panicky idiots who'll use them like...panicky idiots.


  • #43
    garv123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    codex1 wrote: »
    When I was in Ireland, pistols when 100% banned (although some guy had started a court challenge to this at the time) & rifles where restricted to .22 - which amounts to cruelty to animals when hunting.

    You have to go to court to buy a pistol or rifle?

    I accept your points but it would be interesting to read the current official laws on this, do you have a source?


    How many years ago were you last in Ireland? you should have at least educated yourself on Irish gun law before starting a thread about irish gun law :rolleyes:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055749811

    knock yourself out


  • #44
    greenpilot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    codex1 wrote: »
    garv123 wrote: »
    There are some stupid things in Irish gun laws but the majority of them I wouldn't disagree with. I got my 2 guns with little hassle at all as I had a valid reasons for owning each one.

    Your facts are also completely wrong too by the way as pointed out.

    you can own a up to .30 cal on a normal licence.. What did you think people were shooting deer with ? :confused::confused:

    You can also get a semi auto centre fire rifle or bigger cal than .30 on a restricted licence but you must prove valid reason for owning these where a bolt action wont do the same job.. Most of these involve an expensive court case. Fully auto aint legal though.

    Pistols are now restricted to .22 5 shot but if you owned a bigger cal centre fire pistol before the law changed you can still own a centre pistol.

    When I was in Ireland, pistols when 100% banned (although some guy had started a court challenge to this at the time) & rifles where restricted to .22 - which amounts to cruelty to animals when hunting.

    You have to go to court to buy a pistol or rifle?

    I accept your points but it would be interesting to read the current official laws on this, do you have a source?

    With respect, you haven't a clue what you are talking about. Go to the shooting forum if you need clarification. By the way, I had the pleasure of firing a .338 Barret sniper rifle at a certain range last week. Amazingly accurate. What's the gun used for? Culling deer humanely. One shot, one kill.


  • #45
    garv123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    greenpilot wrote: »
    I can ONLY use this gun at the club. .

    Whats stopping you bringing your 10/22 out into the field bunny bashing:confused: There is no separate licence for it and plenty of lads use em for both targets and rabbits


  • #46
    codex1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭codex1


    PieForPi wrote: »
    You insure them. Most burglars aren't even heard, let alone seen or have the potential to "terrify" people.




    We don't have a problem with burglars harming people in this country. Thanks for the concern though.



    Guns aren't expensive for criminals. €500 here would get you an illegal handgun with the serials removed. Yet, we don't have a problem with them.

    You see, where you're failing here is that you're implying that Ireland has a crime problem similar to that in the US and that the criminals here are walking around armed like those in the US. We don't, they're not and they're not going to be and you need to cop yourself on to that. The crime and murder problem in the US has come about due to the access to guns. It will remain a significant problem as long as that relaxed attitude remains.

    For f*ck sake, the public schools there have metal detectors to stop people bringing in their parents guns. We do not need that just so a few egotistical "law abiding citizens" can access lethal weapons to overcompensate for their shortcomings.

    Sure I can insure my property, but that's not the point - where is the deterrent for criminals? Also, some of my property has a high tangible value, but to me the sentimental value means some of it is irreplaceable.

    Burglars don't harm people? Your kidding right? Old ladies getting raped in their homes & people beaten to death by thugs all for a few bucks, it does happen in Ireland. By this logic I should just assume Mr Burglar is an ok dude & just here to relief me of my property, no harm intended?

    A new Glock in my local gunstore is $600, your saying a criminal in Ireland can buy the same weapon at the same cost? Source please?

    No public schools around here have metal detectors, your thinking of areas such as south central in LA or other locations with a high rate of urban unrest. This is the exception, not the rule.

    Your only thinking about guns for crime & security, guns are also for sport & hunting which where I live is their major function.


  • #47
    crazy cabbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 738 ✭✭✭crazy cabbage


    codex1 wrote: »
    What about all the people who have saved their families lives & property through gun ownership?

    And how do you know that. Just becouse someone is shot dead on someone else's property doens't mean that they were going to murder the said family like you seem to suggest. I would wager 99% of these were robbiries and in fairness it is a big leap to jump from robbery to murder.

    Also doesn't America have a massive gap between the rich and the poor. They would do better to close that gap. I would be very supprised if that in its self dosn't reduce there crime rates.

    And the latest shooting (the whole batman thing. Cant remember how many died and to lazy to look it up). The guns that he bought were fully legal. And he still walked out of there and no one shot him to put an end to the massicur. Cops picked him up 10 mins later
    What good did guns do there?
    codex1 wrote: »
    America has a high rate of gun crime, true but is also one of the largest countries in the world - you have to put this in context.

    On of the highest rates of gun crime per capta. please dont ignore this. You can talk around this as much as you like but at the end of the day we have a much lower gun crime rate than america. Why fix what isn't broken?


  • #48
    mattjack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,389 ✭✭✭mattjack


    Can we not have some AH replies ? Myself I'd like an 81mm mortar, I can just see myself bracketing the M50 on Winters evening and I do have a gun licence just in case ya'all think I'm a nut job.:)


  • #49
    garv123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    codex1 wrote: »

    A new Glock in my local gunstore is $600, your saying a criminal in Ireland can buy the same weapon at the same cost? Source please?

    .

    Yeah hang on while he goes to the webpage of people selling illegal guns in Ireland to get you a source..

    Who says they use brand new guns? you can buy handguns for cheaper than that and even cheaper second hand.


  • #50
    BillyMitchel
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭BillyMitchel


    codex1 wrote: »
    Dublin native now living in Montana for the last 6 years.

    I used to have no interest in guns when I lived in Ireland apart from the odd Saturday clay pigeon shooting, so this was a non-issue for me.

    After moving to Montana, I quickly learned that most homes around here have at least one gun & gun ownership is very common, a lot of locals believe it is a head of households responsibility to to own a gun in order to protect ones family & property - both as a deterrent & as a last resort.

    Some of the common themes in the pro-ownership argument are:

    1. Strict gun control laws means that only criminals are then armed, law abiding citizens are unable to defend themselves. Lives could have been saved during the recent tragic shootings in the US, if just one armed & trained individual was present.

    2. If a home-invasion occurs while you are at home, you can call the police, however while they are at best minutes away, seconds count during an a situation like this & you are on your own.

    3. A ban strips your rights & freedom, if you are not a criminal, are responsible & enjoy guns then why should you be prevented from legally owning them. Being responsible means extensive mandatory training & passing a exam before being issued with a licence. Committing a felony over here strips you of the right to ever legally own a gun, as it should be.

    I'll admit when I first got here, we where a little concerned about just how many guns where in circulation & how easy it was to get one (background check + training + cooling off period), after listening to the pro / con arguments I am more in favor of "relaxed" gun laws - within reason. I believe people should have a right to defend themselves, their families & their property, they should not be forced into submitting to thugs who can act without any worries.

    Self defense aside, hunting & time spent at the range is a big family and community bonding experience over here, a lot of people go to the range after work for sport & to de-stress....sending a few dozen rounds down range is great to make you forget about work.

    Just wondering what people back home think about the current gun laws & the limitations such as the blanket ban on handguns, rifles limited to .22 & the slow / non-transparent process associated with obtaining a firearms licence?


    Hunting forum Has had some good discussions regarding this. That probably would of been the best place.

    I'd say it's safe to say your average citizen wouldn't have a breeze about gun laws here.


  • #51
    crazy cabbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 738 ✭✭✭crazy cabbage


    Odysseus wrote: »
    Why does we need stricter gun control? It is not legally held guns that are used in shootings/armed robberies.

    I phrased that wrong. What i ment to say is I would rather a society without guns full stop. For that to happen it would have to happen world wide otherwise crimials would just smugle them in and creat a big (bigger) black market around guns
    But yes you are right. Legal guns are not the ones being used in murders. Our current laws are proberly ok all in all. People who want them for hunting or whatever can get them.


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  • #52
    PieForPi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭PieForPi


    You're absolutely grasping at straws here.
    codex1 wrote: »
    Sure I can insure my property, but that's not the point - where is the deterrent for criminals?

    Ask them, we don't have a violent crime problem here (except Tallaght).

    Having guns for home defense just means the criminals then arm themselves and become more of a threat, that they currently aren't, who go about actually harming/restraining/etc. people because they're afraid themselves that the home owner might pull a gun on them. It's a terrible situation for all involved.

    Thankfully, we don't have that problem though. Our burglars are generally unarmed and just want to get in and out and run if they believe there is someone about. You basically never hear of violent confrontations with burglars and so long as guns aren't brought into the equation it will stay that way.

    Also, some of my property has a high tangible value, but to me the sentimental value means some of it is irreplaceable.

    Yes well burglars aren't there to rob things of sentimental value, they're there to rob things they can make money off. So your argument falls straight through the ground yet again.
    Burglars don't harm people? Your kidding right? Old ladies getting raped in their homes & people beaten to death by thugs all for a few bucks, it does happen in Ireland.
    Oh the drama! RAPED they are! BEATEN TO DEATH they are!

    No, sorry, this stuff might happen once in a blue moon but certainly not enough to justify the access to lethal weapons for home defense.
    By this logic I should just assume Mr Burglar is an ok dude & just here to relief me of my property, no harm intended?

    Well considering there was thousands of burglaries last year and basically none made the news, I think it's fairly safe to assume they're not there to harm people, just to...you know...rob stuff.
    A new Glock in my local gunstore is $600, your saying a criminal in Ireland can buy the same weapon at the same cost? Source please?
    Oh sorry, I forgot to link to the website that criminals use to buy and sell illegal weapons here. Where are my manners!

    You're talking about a brand new handgun from a retailer. You think what the few knackers who have illegal guns here are carrying is brand new from a retailer? No, they're stolen weapons or ones flown in from ****holeland that trade with the 'Ra.
    Your only thinking about guns for crime & security, guns are also for sport & hunting which where I live is their major function.

    Yep, and those who wish to use guns for those purposes here have no problem getting them.

    You're really reaching here to be honest. You're sensationalising everything and implying massive security issues where there are none.

    What it really reads of is someone who went out with one belief, was pressured into a new one and is now trying to sell others that belief, all the while really trying to convince himself that this is what he actually holds true to himself. It's desperate.


  • #53
    codex1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭codex1


    Odysseus wrote: »
    What is the point you are trying to make? You cannot get such a firearm in Irteland. I use my sporting firearms for sport, what is wrong with that?

    I disagree with the current legal restrictions on gun ownership in Ireland & believe they unjustly restrict individuals freedom, as long as I prove myself responsible & legal I should be able to purchase higher powered guns without the current crazy restrictions - within reason, not taking about buying fully automatic or military assault rifes.

    As Ben Franklin said: Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither


  • #54
    garv123
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,576 ✭✭✭garv123


    BillyMitchel wrote: »
    Hunting forum Has had some good discussions regarding this. That probably would of been the best place.

    I'd say it's safe to say your average citizen wouldn't have a breeze about gun laws here.

    Actually it is against the charter.
    RKBA is off-topic.

    These forums are not for the discussion of the use of firearms in self-defence, nor for discussions about the "Right to Keep and Bear Arms" (usually referred to as RKBA) as found in many other countries. There are many other forums on the net which cater to those topics; we suggest Cybershooters in the UK or The High Road in the US for those who wish to discuss these topics.

    The Shooting forum and the 2 sub forums fall into the sports category and self defence does not fall under that.
    Changes of the law for easier licencing would be ok.. but changing it for self defence... that would be welcome in the self defence forum


  • #55
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    I'm all for the ideal world where we can all have guns and be responsible with them, but in an ideal world we wouldn't need them. Sadly in this world people are idiots. I believe that if someone breaks into your house you should have every right to insure your safety, I hate how in this country someone can break into my house and if I do anything I would probably be the one that would end up in trouble. We don't have a problem with guns in this country and opening the laws for more people could just cause more problems.


  • #56
    greenpilot
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭greenpilot


    garv123 wrote: »
    greenpilot wrote: »
    I can ONLY use this gun at the club. .

    Whats stopping you bringing your 10/22 out into the field bunny bashing:confused: There is no separate licence for it and plenty of lads use em for both targets and rabbits
    It was a condition of the license. Pedantic Super.


  • #57
    Witcher
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,419 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    codex1 wrote: »
    I disagree with the current legal restrictions on gun ownership in Ireland & believe they unjustly restrict individuals freedom, as long as I prove myself responsible & legal I should be able to purchase higher powered guns without the current crazy restrictions - within reason, not taking about buying fully automatic or military assault rifes.

    As Ben Franklin said: Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither

    What crazy restrictions are in force?

    Putting in a safe?
    Not being a lunatic?
    Needing a reason for a gun?

    I fully agree with those restrictions as a licence holder here, there are other minor points I would disagree with in our laws but the actual requirements to get a licence aren't bad.


  • #58
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,251 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Two dead, 8 wounded in gunfire near NY's Empire State Building
    At least seven killed in shooting at Wisconsin Sikh temple
    Dark Knight Rises shooting suspect James Holmes faces 24 murder charges

    Ah no sure, them Yanks are havin grate craic wit dem boom shticks. Well, some of them are, and some of them are only dying. Tis only death, tis nathin!


  • #59
    PieForPi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 112 ✭✭PieForPi


    codex1 wrote: »
    I disagree with the current legal restrictions on gun ownership in Ireland & believe they unjustly restrict individuals freedom, as long as I prove myself responsible & legal I should be able to purchase higher powered guns without the current crazy restrictions - within reason, not taking about buying fully automatic or military assault rifes.

    As Ben Franklin said: Those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither
    Er, you've proven that you basically know nothing about the gun laws here, so why are you discussing them?


  • #60
    codex1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 67 ✭✭codex1


    garv123 wrote: »
    Yeah hang on while he goes to the webpage of people selling illegal guns in Ireland to get you a source..

    Who says they use brand new guns? you can buy handguns for cheaper than that and even cheaper second hand.

    Black market goods always sell for a price which is far higher than the legitimate purchase price, even with all the guns here buying illegally on the street could easily cost 3-4 times the original retail purchase price, new or not does not matter.


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  • #61
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    codex1 wrote: »
    America has a high rate of gun crime, true but is also one of the largest countries in the world - you have to put this in context.
    Yes, I think he may have factored that subtle point into his statement. :rolleyes:


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