Irish Gun Control - To Strict?

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:07PM #1

Dublin native now living in Montana for the last 6 years.

I used to have no interest in guns when I lived in Ireland apart from the odd Saturday clay pigeon shooting, so this was a non-issue for me.

After moving to Montana, I quickly learned that most homes around here have at least one gun & gun ownership is very common, a lot of locals believe it is a head of households responsibility to to own a gun in order to protect ones family & property - both as a deterrent & as a last resort.

Some of the common themes in the pro-ownership argument are:

1. Strict gun control laws means that only criminals are then armed, law abiding citizens are unable to defend themselves. Lives could have been saved during the recent tragic shootings in the US, if just one armed & trained individual was present.

2. If a home-invasion occurs while you are at home, you can call the police, however while they are at best minutes away, seconds count during an a situation like this & you are on your own.

3. A ban strips your rights & freedom, if you are not a criminal, are responsible & enjoy guns then why should you be prevented from legally owning them. Being responsible means extensive mandatory training & passing a exam before being issued with a licence. Committing a felony over here strips you of the right to ever legally own a gun, as it should be.

I'll admit when I first got here, we where a little concerned about just how many guns where in circulation & how easy it was to get one (background check + training + cooling off period), after listening to the pro / con arguments I am more in favor of "relaxed" gun laws - within reason. I believe people should have a right to defend themselves, their families & their property, they should not be forced into submitting to thugs who can act without any worries.

Self defense aside, hunting & time spent at the range is a big family and community bonding experience over here, a lot of people go to the range after work for sport & to de-stress....sending a few dozen rounds down range is great to make you forget about work.

Just wondering what people back home think about the current gun laws & the limitations such as the blanket ban on handguns, rifles limited to .22 & the slow / non-transparent process associated with obtaining a firearms licence?

Witcher · 24-08-2012 07:09PM

codex1 wrote: »

Just wondering what people back home think about the current gun laws & the limitations such as the blanket ban on handguns, rifles limited to .22 & the slow / non-transparent process associated with obtaining a firearms licence?

There's no blanket ban on handguns(you can have 5 shot .22lrs) and rifles aren't limited to .22 anymore and the speed of the licence depends on your district, I got both mine within 2 weeks.

AH really isn't the place for a logical discussion on this:pac:

TheBody · 24-08-2012 07:10PM

codex1 wrote: »

Dublin native now living in Montana for the last 6 years.

I used to have no interest in guns when I lived in Ireland apart from the odd Saturday clay pigeon shooting, so this was a non-issue for me.

After moving to Montana, I quickly learned that most homes around here have at least one gun & gun ownership is very common, a lot of locals believe it is a head of households responsibility to to own a gun in order to protect ones family & property - both as a deterrent & as a last resort.

Some of the common themes in the pro-ownership argument are:

1. Strict gun control laws means that only criminals are then armed, law abiding citizens are unable to defend themselves. Lives could have been saved during the recent tragic shootings in the US, if just one armed & trained individual was present.

2. If a home-invasion occurs while you are at home, you can call the police, however while they are at best minutes away, seconds count during an a situation like this & you are on your own.

3. A ban strips your rights & freedom, if you are not a criminal, are responsible & enjoy guns then why should you be prevented from legally owning them. Being responsible means extensive mandatory training & passing a exam before being issued with a licence. Committing a felony over here strips you of the right to ever legally own a gun, as it should be.

I'll admit when I first got here, we where a little concerned about just how many guns where in circulation & how easy it was to get one (background check + training + cooling off period), after listening to the pro / con arguments I am more in favor of "relaxed" gun laws - within reason. I believe people should have a right to defend themselves, their families & their property, they should not be forced into submitting to thugs who can act without any worries.

Just wondering what people back home think about the current gun laws & the limitations such as the blanket ban on handguns, rifles limited to .22 & the slow / non-transparent process associated with obtaining a firearms licence?

The problem is that most people are idiots. I don't want to see most people wandering around with guns in their pockets.

opinion guy · 24-08-2012 07:11PM

Lets see - gun massacre in Chicago overnight and New York today.

To answer your question. No. Our gun laws are not too tight - they are fine thank you very much.

Witcher · 24-08-2012 07:13PM

TheBody wrote: »

The problem is that most people are idiots. I don't want to see most people wandering around with guns in their pockets.

I have to agree with this, there are some people who should not have access to firearms. I say that as a firearm owner, I would like to see more freedom for those who have been approved to hold firearms but not that everyone and anyone can go buy one over the counter. The laws here are too tight but sure it's better than nothing.

ScumLord · 24-08-2012 07:14PM

codex1 wrote: »

1. Strict gun control laws means that only criminals are then armed, law abiding citizens are unable to defend themselves. Lives could have been saved during the recent tragic shootings in the US, if just one armed & trained individual was present.

Well the problem as I see it is that there was one armed and trained person present and he shot a load of people.

2. If a home-invasion occurs while you are at home, you can call the police, however while they are at best minutes away, seconds count during an a situation like this & you are on your own.

As long as the other guy isn't armed he's going to get a hammer in the face.

3. A ban strips your rights & freedom, if you are not a criminal, are responsible & enjoy guns then why should you be prevented from legally owning them. Being responsible means extensive mandatory training & passing a exam before being issued with a licence. Committing a felony over here strips you of the right to ever legally own a gun, as it should be.

Being drunk or just simply emotional means you could end up using that gun on someone for no good reason. Aren't many murders crimes of passion where some ones caught cheating?

Just wondering what people back home think about the current gun laws & the limitations such as the blanket ban on handguns, rifles limited to .22 & the slow / non-transparent process associated with obtaining a firearms licence?

So what if it's limited to a .22, they can still kill plenty of things, why do you need a long range assault riffle to defend your home? You don't it's ridiculous, the reason Americans have them is because they're cool and they're in call of duty. I'd love a gun but I've been stupid with an airsoft gun never mind a proper gun.

Odysseus · 24-08-2012 07:14PM

I have 2 rilfes and a shotgun, in my opinion yeah we are to severe here. People don't know much about guns here and think that if you have more than one, you are some type of gun nut. Whereas each gun is specific for a set task, and if you enjoy different types of shooting you need different types of gun.

retalivity · 24-08-2012 07:15PM

to strict what?

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:16PM

opinion guy wrote: »

Lets see - gun massacre in Chicago overnight and New York today.

To answer your question. No. Our gun laws are not too tight - they are fine thank you very much.

Is't that the problem though? No one was able to defend themselves? (devils advocate)

marshbaboon · 24-08-2012 07:17PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I have 2 rilfes and a shotgun, in my opinion yeah we are to severe here. People don't know much about guns here and think that if you have more than one, you are some type of gun nut. Whereas each gun is specific for a set task, and if you enjoy different types of shooting you need different types of gun.

Like if you enjoy shooting up a crowd of people, you need an assault rifle.. or other fully automatic weapon.

Witcher · 24-08-2012 07:17PM

codex1 wrote: »

Is't that the problem though? No one was able to defend themselves? (devils advocate)

Jesus don't start that discussion, a thread ran to nearly 50 pages a few weeks back talking about that point:pac:

marshbaboon wrote: »

Like if you enjoy shooting up a crowd of people, you need an assault rifle.. or other fully automatic weapon.

Odysseus is in Ireland, where you need a reasons for each one and 'assault rifles' are banned.

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:18PM

Be like the USA? No no, no thank you.

There isn't an issue with criminals with guns here. We don't need to arm ourselves against them. The worst thing most people will face is a crowbar that a burglar is armed with, which they brought just to get into the house in the first place.

The US has an intentional homicide rate almost 4 times higher than ours, Britain's or Canada's. They can keep their guns.

For what it's worth, I fired a range of weapons while in the US ranging from small handguns to fully automatic machine guns. It was fun, but gun ownership for self-defense is incredibly retarded and I certainly hope we never see it available here.

Anita Blow · 24-08-2012 07:18PM

Possibly the worst time to argue for gun legalisation, using the US as an example after the Summer they've had with multiple civilian shootings (Denver, Chicago, Wisconsin, New York all in the past month)

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:21PM

TheBody wrote: »

The problem is that most people are idiots. I don't want to see most people wandering around with guns in their pockets.

To walk around with a gun requires a conceals weapons permit, they don't just hand those out - its up to your local police department who can get these (in addition to having to do a LOT of extra training & take an annual test).

Also, just because their are a lot of idiots out there (which I agree with), why should that prevent me from enjoying what I now consider to be an enjoyable sport as long as I respect the law & don't do anything foolish.

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:21PM

Anita Blow wrote: »

Possibly the worst time to argue for gun legalisation, using the US as an example after the Summer they've had with multiple civilian shootings (Denver, Chicago, Wisconsin, New York all in the past month)

And those are without even brushing the topic of single person murders at the hands of lunatics with guns and "accidents" such as people "cleaning their gun and it went off" that seem to happen an immense amount in the US.

Sounds like OP has been drinking in too much of the dumb US air over the past 6 years. The US is in no way a country we want to replicate.

sweeney1971 · 24-08-2012 07:25PM

Knew of a guy in the UK a Farmer who was in his 90's, going blind, deaf, and could not wipe his own arse yet the Police gave him gun's. No one could understand why and it turns out he was an informer for the Police informing on his neighbour who was dealing in Red Diesel.

TheBody · 24-08-2012 07:26PM

codex1 wrote: »

To walk around with a gun requires a conceals weapons permit, they don't just hand those out - its up to your local police department who can get these (in addition to having to do a LOT of extra training & take an annual test).

Also, just because their are a lot of idiots out there (which I agree with), why should that prevent me from enjoying what I now consider to be an enjoyable sport as long as I respect the law & don't do anything foolish.

In an ideal world, I agree with you. I would love for you and I to be able to enjoy any gun we want. However, I don't want to see the day where any joe can buy, for example, an automatic weaopn and possibly go mental when they snap some day.

Witcher · 24-08-2012 07:27PM

TheBody wrote: »

In an ideal world, I agree with you. I would love for you and I to be able to enjoy any gun we want. However, I don't want to see the day where any joe can buy, for example, an automatic weaopn and possibly go mental when they snap some day.

You can't even buy an automatic weapon over the counter in the US so it's never gonna happen here.

crazy cabbage · 24-08-2012 07:28PM

Nope. No way. We need stricter gun control if anything. I am all for personal freedom but way more people will have freedom if there is no guns whatsoever. Just ask all the people who have been shot dead. :rolleyes:

Doesn't america have one of the highest rates of gun crime in the world?

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:28PM

PieForPi wrote: »

And those are without even brushing the topic of single person murders at the hands of lunatics with guns and "accidents" such as people "cleaning their gun and it went off" that seem to happen an immense amount in the US.

Sounds like OP has been drinking in too much of the dumb US air over the past 6 years. The US is in no way a country we want to replicate.

Apart from being rude, what about all the people who have saved their lives by owning guns - every week there are stories in the paper here about a homeowner preventing a home invasion or attack through armed means.

El Guapo! · 24-08-2012 07:29PM

Bottom line is

99% of burglars/muggers/home invaders here don't have guns so there is little need for the home owner to have a gun to fight back with.
It's a different story when every Tom Dick and Harry has a 9mm tucked into his belt. In that situation, using your fists or even a knife is of little use. At least if you have a gun you stand a chance.
This is where the problem is in America. Everyone has a gun so it makes sense to have one to protect yourself.
I've no problem with a rational, sensible, responsible person having a gun at home to protect their family if the situation arises. But the problem is, the guns are too easy to acquire in the US, and clearly some mentally unstable people are able to get a gun license with ease. Afaik there is no psych evaluation prior to getting a permit. It's just a background check and you have the gun in a matter of days. The guns are getting into the wrong hands far too easily.

Sunnyisland · 24-08-2012 07:30PM

Having acess to guns for all who are permitted wouldent go down to well here,It will never happen, Be better of having a fully armed garda force,imo

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:31PM

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Nope. No way. We need stricter gun control if anything. I am all for personal freedom but way more people will have freedom if there is no guns whatsoever. Just ask all the people who have been shot dead. :rolleyes:

Doesn't america have one of the highest rates of gun crime in the world?

What about all the people who have saved their families lives & property through gun ownership?

America has a high rate of gun crime, true but is also one of the largest countries in the world - you have to put this in context.

garv123 · 24-08-2012 07:32PM

There are some stupid things in Irish gun laws but the majority of them I wouldn't disagree with. I got my 2 guns with little hassle at all as I had a valid reasons for owning each one.

Your facts are also completely wrong too by the way as pointed out.

you can own a up to .30 cal on a normal licence.. What did you think people were shooting deer with ?

You can also get a semi auto centre fire rifle or bigger cal than .30 on a restricted licence but you must prove valid reason for owning these where a bolt action wont do the same job.. Most of these involve an expensive court case. Fully auto aint legal though.

Pistols are now restricted to .22 5 shot but if you owned a bigger cal centre fire pistol before the law changed you can still own a centre pistol.

Witcher · 24-08-2012 07:32PM

Dean09 wrote: »

But the problem is, the guns are too easy to acquire in the US, and clearly some mentally unstable people are able to get a gun license with ease. Afaik there is no psych evaluation prior to getting a permit. It's just a background check and you have the gun in a matter of days.

If you're buying a shotgun or rifle from a shop in the US you don't even wait a few days, you fill out a 4473 form and your background check comes back in about 30mins and you walk out with it.

If you intend walking around with a pistol then you need a carry permit which takes longer.

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:34PM

codex1 wrote: »

Apart from being rude, what about all the people who have saved their lives by owning guns - every week there are stories in the paper here about a homeowner preventing a home invasion or attack through armed means.

...in the USA.

Whose necessity came about due to the stupid lack of gun control.

A murder rate 4x ours, Britains and Canada's. Note that. For every one person that dies of intentional homicide here, 4 die in the US. That is obscene. They can keep it and their f*cking "heroes" who use them to be honest.

I'd rather the current situation where we've overwhelmingly unarmed criminals and a lack of access to lethal weapons for people who crack under pressure/stress/etc and want to take it out on someone.

You need them in the US though because the constitution there basically allows anyone who hasn't gotten themselves a felony charge or booking in a mental facility to access lethal weapons. You're genuinely in danger of those around you having guns. We're not here and I'm happy to keep it that way.

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:37PM

Dean09 wrote: »

Bottom line is
99% of burglars/muggers/home invaders here don't have guns so there is little need for the home owner to have a gun to fight back with.

Not only that but most will run as soon as they hear a noise/believe someone is awake. They're not in to hurt people, they're in to grab whatever they can and get out undetected and thus we don't need to have weapons to defend ourselves.

Even having a bat near the bedroom is almost overkill.

This is where the problem is in America. Everyone has a gun so it makes sense to have one to protect yourself.

Yep, and they're killing eachother with them at a disgusting rate and screaming that they've a God given right to do so.

I've no problem with a rational, sensible, responsible person having a gun at home to protect their family if the situation arises. But the problem is, the guns are too easy to acquire in the US, and clearly some mentally unstable people are able to get a gun license with ease.

Not only that but they're clearly not being stored properly either, since so many kids/burglars/etc can snatch them with ease.

Afaik there is no psych evaluation prior to getting a permit. It's just a background check and you have the gun in a matter of days. The guns are getting into the wrong hands far too easily.

Yep, unless you're a proven criminal/nutjob you're good to go.

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:38PM

Dean09 wrote: »

Bottom line is
99% of burglars/muggers/home invaders here don't have guns so there is little need for the home owner to have a gun to fight back with.
It's a different story when every Tom Dick and Harry has a 9mm tucked into his belt. In that situation, using your fists or even a knife is of little use. At least if you have a gun you stand a chance.
This is where the problem is in America. Everyone has a gun so it makes sense to have one to protect yourself.
I've no problem with a rational, sensible, responsible person having a gun at home to protect their family if the situation arises. But the problem is, the guns are too easy to acquire in the US, and clearly some mentally unstable people are able to get a gun license with ease. Afaik there is no psych evaluation prior to getting a permit. It's just a background check and you have the gun in a matter of days. The guns are getting into the wrong hands far too easily.

I used to agree with this point of view, however when I've spent years of my life working to purchase my property & other goods, why should I just allow any thug to walk into my house, terrify my kids & wife and leave with anything he wants.

Also, he might not be armed with a gun, but that does not mean he cannot use deadly force against us or harm my family, he could be strung out on meth, have a syringe, knife etc...

I also agree with you that guns are getting into the wrong hands - criminals can easily obtain a gun (although its expensive), yet as a law abiding citizen I cannot & I see this to be a gross imbalance.

PieForPi · 24-08-2012 07:39PM

codex1 wrote: »

What about all the people who have saved their families lives & property through gun ownership?

America has a high rate of gun crime, true but is also one of the largest countries in the world - you have to put this in context.

No, because you see rates are generally done on a per capita basis.

Such as the murder rate, which is done on a per 100,000 people basis.

christmas2012 · 24-08-2012 07:40PM

if youre out on a farm on your own a gun sometimes is necessary,but if you are in the city with lots of people,ie witnesses and potential helpers ,and ambulance,hospital,police,phone line wires and good reception in cities for your mobile then there is not really a problem there if an emergency does happen youre not miles away with no help near..but getting back to gun laws i think they should be strict and stay strict for a reason,there are lots of anti socials about who would relish the idea of getting a gun and using it on someone without even thinking of the consequences,some people out there view prison as a career move ,its like a new gaff,so i think they should stay the way they are..

codex1 · 24-08-2012 07:41PM

realies wrote: »

Having acess to guns for all who are permitted wouldent go down to well here,It will never happen, Be better of having a fully armed garda force,imo

I don't like the idea of outsourcing my families security, especially as the government are considering closing many police stations right now.

Security aside, shooting is a major sport & why should responsible gun owners be prevented from participating in it.

Irish Gun Control - To Strict?

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