leaving cert/points system obsession

ford fiesta · 20-08-2012 06:13PM #1

just a quick rant...why is this country and its media obsessed with the junior and leaving cert and only photograph students on the front page of the times/independent/examiner etc who get 9 A1's or near and not those students that are happy with, say, 290 points.

then the cao offers are out today and just watching the 6pm rte news, the focus is on high pointed courses (trinity etc)and shows a student getting his cao offer of science in trinity, which is fairly high points. again, why dont they show the student getting his sligo I.T. business course (and again is happy with it).

is there any relevance on the average leaving cert and low third level pointed courses anymore?

Lord TSC · 20-08-2012 06:15PM

Despite the fact said focus is usually on the highest of the upper classes with all the nessecary advantages, I for one welcome all celebrations of this country's best and brightest.

God knows, they probably won't be in the country much longer....

Tombi! · 20-08-2012 06:18PM

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

NegativeCreep · 20-08-2012 06:21PM

Haha yeah. I have to laugh when I hear them going on and on about Trinity and how much the points have gone up without so much as a mention of any of the IT's, which, by the way, have seen a huge jump in points this year as well.
It's just an example of the snobbery in Ireland and especially in the media. I'm happy with my 360 points and I'm delighted with the course I got as well

I guess being happy with what you have doesn't sell newspapers or gain any viewers :rolleyes:

Zab · 20-08-2012 06:21PM

You want to celebrate mediocrity?

SEPT 23 1989 · 20-08-2012 06:21PM

Maybe because the people in RTE went from school to college and straight in that institution and to them the Leaving Cert is a big thing,whereas people who live outside that bubble and survive in the real world know it has very little meaning in the grand scheme of things

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 06:29PM

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

Maybe because the people in RTE went from school to college and straight in that institution and to them the Leaving Cert is a big thing,whereas people who live outside that bubble and survive in the real world know it has very little meaning in the grand scheme of things

In the grand scheme of things yes, it's not that important. In the short term it's extremely important.

Don't downplay the accomplishments of those who've done well this year and are being celebrated in the media just because you didn't do so yourself.

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 06:34PM

Zab wrote: »

You want to celebrate mediocrity?

Ah sure don't you know they're all winners

Who are you to say that my little Johnny, who we all know took the piss all year and skimmed by with 280 points, is less publish worthy than little Jack over there who studied all year and has some of the best grades in the country? He's no better than my Johnny I'm telling ya.

Napper Hawkins · 20-08-2012 06:40PM

The Leaving cert is like a contest between a dolphin and an elephant to see who is the fastest swimmer.

Richard Hillman · 20-08-2012 06:41PM

You can guarantee that kids on TV, Newspapers and radio that are on talking about their CAO offers have relations/neighbours in the said media outlets.

later12 · 20-08-2012 06:46PM

I didn't actually know today was points day until I read this thread.

Wow, some serious points increases. Feel quite sorry for those who were unable to gain places in courses like Law, English & the Humanities just because of the mathematics bonus points; it sort of heaps unfairness onto an already unfair system.

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 06:47PM

later12 wrote: »

an already unfair system.

What is unfair about it?

later12 · 20-08-2012 06:52PM

PieForPi wrote: »

What is unfair about it?

The fact that you can be the most gifted student in the world at English literature, but that your leaving certificate grades for English literature are allocated the same weight as your grades for Engineering, Mathematics and Agricultural Science.

Similarly, no matter how good you are at Mathematics, you will not be able to get a place at say, TCD this year, unless you are exceptionally good in the humanities as well. That's unfair, I would suggest.

I'm not a massive fan of the UK system either btw, but I do think there needs to be some greater discrimination on behalf of HEAs in terms of how they allocate CAO points for entry onto undergraduate programs; after all, the CAO is their baby.

Ciaran0 · 20-08-2012 06:55PM

Brutal Deluxe wrote: »

What would be more impressive: the person who memorized six books or the person memorized 9 books?

Neither of those are impressive. Memorizing facts for an exam isn't what education should be about.

twinytwo · 20-08-2012 06:55PM

PieForPi wrote: »

What is unfair about it?

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

On top of that when i did my LC both my accounting and economics teachers predicated the entire paper question for question. Thats how pointless the LC is.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 06:56PM

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

It's "unfair" in that it takes nothing but a set of exams into account, however if you venture down the road of merit based assessment where extra curricular achievements are taken into account or similar then you're potentially entering a system of extreme unfairness.

1ZRed · 20-08-2012 06:57PM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Haha yeah. I have to laugh when I hear them going on and on about Trinity and how much the points have gone up without so much as a mention of any of the IT's, which, by the way, have seen a huge jump in points this year as well.
It's just an example of the snobbery in Ireland and especially in the media. I'm happy with my 360 points and I'm delighted with the course I got as well I guess being happy with what you have doesn't sell newspapers or gain any viewers :rolleyes:

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 07:01PM

twinytwo wrote: »

Because its retarded, if you want to do medicine for example your looking at having to hit the 600 point mark. Which means that unless you want to do nine+ subjects you have to do honours maths,french and irish. In reality what the **** has any of those got to do with medicine. So if your really bad at languages your instantly at a disadvantage over someone who isnt, even though it will have no bearing on weather you make a good doctor or not.

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.

In france there is no points system anyone can do whatever they want to in uni so you could have 400/500 people starting out in a course and those that are willing to put in the work and want to be there stay, the rest leave after a few weeks.

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

NegativeCreep · 20-08-2012 07:02PM

1ZRed wrote: »

But once you get what you want, the points afterwards mean nothing! As long as you're happy, doing what you're interested in and bettering yourself further educationally, you're already doing pretty damn good regardless if you got 200 points or 600!

Congrats on the offer man

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy

Did you get offered what you wanted?

later12 · 20-08-2012 07:02PM

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

up for anything · 20-08-2012 07:03PM

PieForPi wrote: »

Yes but it does mean that Person A who is exceptional at Maths but isn't great at say English is on an even playing field with Person B who is exceptional at English but not so great at Maths.

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Napper Hawkins · 20-08-2012 07:05PM

PieForPi wrote: »

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

1ZRed · 20-08-2012 07:07PM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

I don't begrudge anyone getting 600 points. Fair balls to the, I couldn't be bothered getting that amount but fair play to them

ah thanks, it's not what I originally wanted but I researched the course more and I'm pretty damn happy
Did you get offered what you wanted?

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 07:08PM

Napper Hawkins wrote: »

Yeah, those stupid French! What the **** do they know? Not like us Irish!

FFS

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one, and puts undue stress on a system merely because it lets a load of people into courses they aren't actually capable of getting through.

If you're going to jump on hysteria and sensationalism then you may jog on elsewhere.

NegativeCreep · 20-08-2012 07:10PM

1ZRed wrote: »

Hopefully it turns out good. Either way it's still your ticket to college life!

Yes and no. If I sit my exam and pass it's mine but I'm not sure whether I'm up to intense college engineering Maths. I want to enjoy it not struggle along and hate it!

But I'm thinking of accepting my Biotechnology offer from NUIG so I'm happy with the options anyway

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth

I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

later12 · 20-08-2012 07:11PM

PieForPi wrote: »

I didn't say our system was fantastic, did I? I merely said theirs sounds stupid, and it does. It's a logistical nightmare, for one

They have the same system in Belgium. As a school leaver, you can do any course you want, with a few exceptions. I've never heard anything but good reports about it, and they have 2 more universities inside the Top 100 in the world than we do.

So that would be 2, then.

twinytwo · 20-08-2012 07:12PM

PieForPi wrote: »

So then they study harder to ensure they get the result they wanted. Leaving cert subjects aren't rocket science, there is a curriculum and those who do the most work get the most points generally.

That sounds quite stupid, frankly.

Your also not taking into account, that they will only allow a certain number of A's in a subject each year... yes marking schemes can be revised if too many people are getting high results. Then you have a to look at public v private schools. I was lucky enough to do my leaving in a private school, there is no comparison. To say those who do the most work get the most points is not true.

PieForPi · 20-08-2012 07:12PM

later12 wrote: »

Yeah but they don't need to be on the same pitch; they're going off in completely different directions.

If nothing else, I'd be worried about the quality of candidates emerging from the universities because of the points system. Often, very intelligent students will be particularly strong in their favoured area, say mathematics.

So a real worry would be that they are being lost in the system, or being pawned off to the ITs, because their grades in the humanities did not allow them to gain a place on one of the more prestigious mathematics courses where they might have excelled.

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

up for anything wrote: »

Not really any more - someone who is exceptional at Maths has a 25 point lead over someone who is exceptional at English.

Yeah, I'm not too sure what to make of this myself. Even Ruari Quinn is rethinking the scheme now.

later12 · 20-08-2012 07:15PM

PieForPi wrote: »

They may be going off in different directions but for the time being they're coming from the same one and have to be assessed based on that. When a day comes where true modularisation and a wide range of choice exists in the second level system then I absolutely agree, but for the time being they're all being taught the same classes (mostly) and the same curriculum and thus there's no room for special weighting.

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

1ZRed · 20-08-2012 07:16PM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

Biotechnology was what I wanted! But in Maynooth I'm jealous now :pac: The course I'm in now has biotechnology as part of it though so it's not too bad

Hah no way? I'm not getting why the demand is so high on it though?

Then again, I'm the hardest guy to please when it comes to college courses! ;D

That sounds good anyway. If biotech is a part of your course it could open the door for you into full-on biotechnology or a transfer maybe? You'll be sorted either way.

twinytwo · 20-08-2012 07:19PM

later12 wrote: »

No room for special weighting?

That's bizarre.

If you're interviewing candidates to work as electricians, and one guy has electricians' qualifications, and the other is a burrito chef, you're obviously going to favour the first guy.

If a student is particularly talented in mathematics, or engineering, or languages, then that should be taken into account when trying to get the best possible candidates into the best courses.

On what planet does that not make sense?

Exactly in this day and age being fluent in a foreign language is probally more important than maths. Besides anyone that as done engineering etc in uni knows that the leaving cert Honours maths dosent touch uni maths.

leaving cert/points system obsession

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